Germany Basic Strategies, Concepts and Ideas


  • @Cmdr:

    Jennifer’s Basic German Strategy Guide for 1941:



    Germany:

    You need to do maximum impact on Russia as fast as possible with Germany, only diverting enough equipment as needed to protect Italy’s fleet that first round.

    For this, a 4 prong offensive might be best.

    1)  Amphibiously assault Karelia.  You should get it every time with various losses, once I even got it without loss, which was a fun game!

    Cost analysis:
    -3 Infantry, -1 Fighter: Cost 19 IPC
    Destroy 5 Infantry, 1 Artillery: Benefit: 19 IPC
    Capture AA Gun: +6 IPC
    Collect for Land: +2 IPC
    Collect for National Objective: +5 IPC

    Net: +13 IPC (+7 if you don’t consider taking the AA Gun into account.)

    1. Hit Baltic States, East Poland and Ukraine.

    Cost: 1 or 2 Infantry >> -6 IPC
    Destroy 7 Infantry >> +21 IPC
    Collect for Land >> 4 IPC
    Collect for NO >> 5 IPC

    Net: +24 IPC

    3)  Attack Egypt.  This isn’t meant to TAKE Egypt, but to weaken the British severely.  I’ve found that if you do not even attack Egypt with Germany, Italy can be wiped out in short order and has NO CHANCE at getting the second National Objective ever.  Not to mention, Egypt is a great place for a British Industrial complex later in the game.

    Cost: 2 Infantry, Artillery, 2 Armor >> -20 IPC
    Destroy: 3 Infantry, Artillery, Armor >> +18 IPC
    Net: -2 IPC

    4)  Naval assaults on England.  Primarily you have to clear the Cruiser/Destroyer from SZ 12 to protect the Italian fleet.  I usually attack the destroyer in SZ 6 too since it’s the only thing your submarine can do anyway and it’s a 50/50 shot at sinking another British ship.

    Cost: 1 or 2 submarines >> -6-12 IPC (none of which you need)
    Destroy: Cruiser and 1 or 2 Destroyers >> +20-28 IPC

    Net: +8-22 IPC

    As far as builds go, I’m thinking that in 1941 we need more and more armor than we did in Revised.  We cannot neglect infantry, but we can bring that Armor/Infantry ratio up closer to 50/50.  Remember, Russia starts with no fighters, so they’re trading tanks just about every round, so Germany can also afford to trade tanks.

    If you find your builds getting maxed out you can build a complex in Poland.  This is a 3 IPC territory, so you’ll be producing 3-5 units there easily (with Improved Factories) and it’s limited in damage it can take from allied bombing runs! (6 IPC max.)  This by itself would make it a more valuable building location than France, but wait, Jim, there’s more!  Poland is two zones CLOSER to Russia than France is!  That means you can put Infantry into Poland and have the Armor in Germany catch up with them the next round in East Poland.

    Technology:  Tech is the backbone of this game.  I have not seen a single game played where one side had technology and the other side did not and still won.

    Okay, tech is a bit random, so what?  You have a choice on what chart you roll on, so that’ll help a lot, and really, outside of Super Submarines, I don’t see a “bad” technology on the charts. (Thinking about it, if we fixed Super Submarines to negate Battleship 2 hit abilities, then they would be good!)

    I like chart 1 for Germany.  Improved Factories are great (especially for a poland complex or even Karelia.)  War bonds are okay, at least they can offset SBR damage.  Mechanized infantry and paratroopers are wicked. (Paratroopers are great for getting Italian National Objectives and liberating things like Finland and Norway.  I’ve even toyed with a Sea Lion attempt from the air once or twice.)

    Should Germany SBR?

    I guess that sort of depends.  Definitely not on round 1!  But later, it can be helpful if England’s being a nuissance or if you think Russia got lucky and you need to knock their income back down.  But generally speaking, those German bombers are really nice for hitting the enemy ground units and not so much the complexes.

    Caveat:  England has no Industrial Complexes outside of England itself, Japan and Italy have taken away all of England’s National Objectives, should you SBR?   In this case, I would hit England with 3 or 4 bombers and the reason being that England’s only earning in the low 30s, upper 20s.  if you can do 10-16 IPC damage (which 3 or 4 bombers should easily do) then you’ve eliminated them as a serious threat to France.  Note, in most games, America is hardly a threat to the woman hood of France let alone the German army there.  This would mean you could pull most, if not all, of those troops out and send them towards Russia.

    Key Territories:

    1)  East Poland is a HUGE territory for you!  From here you can hit Baltic States, Belarus, East Ukraine and Ukraine.  As long as you have a stack here, your National Objective in this region should be secured each round.

    2)  Karelia:  As Russia’s weakest link, you may as well go for this one first.  It’s worth +7 IPC a round (5 for the National Objective and 2 for the territory.)  It also allows you to trade Arkhangelsk (threatening his NO) and to threaten Scandinavia (Finland/Norway.)  The miracle happens if you get Improved Factories and Karelia, now you’re dumping +4 Infantry a round up there!

    3)  France:  You need to defend France from British incursions as soon as possible.  Normally this is Italy’s job, but Italy can find itself hard pressed if things go poorly.  For England, France is worth 11 IPC.  For Germany France is also worth 11 IPC.


    Most useful units:  Infantry, Armor, Bombers (Artillery if you have Advanced Artillery)

    Very similar to what I do, however, it is very hard to win all of these, it thins you out too much.  I usually don’t do all of these.  I don’t play with Tech though (fun sometimes, but it makes the game too dicey).  Can you do this w/o tech???

    Questioneer

    :?

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    You should actually win all of them, Questioner.  They all have 85-99% odds of success, give or take.  I posted the numbers somewhere, and I don’t feel like going to Frood and running them again just to post them again.


  • @Cmdr:

    You should actually win all of them, Questioner.  They all have 85-99% odds of success, give or take.  I posted the numbers somewhere, and I don’t feel like going to Frood and running them again just to post them again.

    your right, but what i meant is that you thin yourself out too much verses a strong KGF.  I realize that taking some risks as Germany is necessary if you are going to win with them, but against a good allied player, he’s gonna find an imbalance or crease to take advantage of ( I can expand on this more later if you want).  Unless you play with a bid or something, in which case I would put it in Africa.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I agree, you are quite thin for the next round.  You should have recovered greatly by round 3, especially with +15+15+15 National Objective Income over those three rounds.

    Meanwhile, your bombers should be enough to keep the allies at least restrained in the Atlantic.

    The idea behind my approach is to break Russia early.  They only have the one tank and by hitting Karelia you force them to use the tank in Karelia (meaning not in Ukraine, East Poland or Baltic States.)

  • 2007 AAR League

    @Cmdr:

    1 Inf, 1 Art, 3 Fig OR 1 Inf, 1 Art, 2 Fig is more than 40% of the time.  More units or less units is 60% of the time (pretty evenly split.)

    If you run it on frood, you have to remember to put 2 Atk. Tra/land units die last to get accurate numbers, that’s where you’re coming up lacking I think.

    90% Germany wins, 10% Germany loses (rounded of course)

    Out of that 90% almost the entire 90% is with two ground units at least (meaning Inf, Art, 2 Arm in Karelia for Russia 1 to deal with.)


    Attacker results:
    Probability % # units                   /     losses              cost
            4.79% 8: 3 Inf, 1 Art, 4 Fig. no units. :                 0 IPCs
      15.34%      7: 2 Inf, 1 Art, 4 Fig. 1 Inf. :                 3 IPCs
      23.9% 6: 1 Inf, 1 Art, 4 Fig. 2 Inf. :                 6 IPCs
      23.5% 5: 1 Art, 4 Fig.         3 Inf. :                 9 IPCs
      0.04% 5: 1 Inf, 1 Art, 3 Fig. 2 Inf, 1 Fig. :         16 IPCs
      13.75%      4: 1 Art, 3 Fig.         3 Inf, 1 Fig. :         19 IPCs
            0.05% 4: 1 Inf, 1 Art, 2 Fig. 2 Inf, 2 Fig. :         26 IPCs
      6.58% 3: 1 Art, 2 Fig.         3 Inf, 2 Fig. :         29 IPCs
      0.04% 3: 1 Inf, 1 Art, 1 Fig. 2 Inf, 3 Fig. :         36 IPCs
      3.9%         2: 1 Art, 1 Fig.         3 Inf, 3 Fig. :          39 IPCs
      0.01% 2: 1 Inf, 1 Art.         2 Inf, 4 Fig. :         46 IPCs
      1.93% 1: 1 Art.                 3 Inf, 4 Fig. :         49 IPCs
      6.17% 0: no units.                 3 Inf, 1 Art, 4 Fig. : 53 IPCs

    Yes I did specify that 2 ground units must survive and the numbers I got were nowhere near as bad for the Russians as yours. Looks like, at the very least, you forgot to include the AA gun in you sim.

    And you can’t use the LHTR or Revised options for the sim because the DD shot is an auto-kill in Revised but in AA50 the hit unit gets to return fire before it dies. You might have to select the Europe option but I don’t exactly know the rules for Europe so I don’t know if it follows the revised rules for bombardments or AA50’s.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I didn’t use the cruiser nor the AA Gun.

    AA Gun 4@1
    Cruiser 1@3

    Pretty much evens out.

  • 2007 AAR League

    @Cmdr:

    I didn’t use the cruiser nor the AA Gun.

    AA Gun 4@1
    Cruiser 1@3

    Pretty much evens out.

    Uh, no it doesn’t.

    For starters, the AA is capable of hitting multiple times and the CA is not. Plus, the AA hits are auto-kill while the CA’s, again, are not. The AA easily has the advantage over the CA there and by removing one for the other you are short-changing the Russians.


  • @Cmdr:

    Jennifer’s Basic German Strategy Guide for 1941:

    1)  Amphibiously assault Karelia.  You should get it every time with various losses, once I even got it without loss, which was a fun game!

    Cost analysis:
    -3 Infantry, -1 Fighter: Cost 19 IPC
    Destroy 5 Infantry, 1 Artillery: Benefit: 19 IPC
    Capture AA Gun: +6 IPC
    Collect for Land: +2 IPC
    Collect for National Objective: +5 IPC

    Net: +13 IPC (+7 if you don’t consider taking the AA Gun into account.)

    Well, you didn’t mention your specific allocations and buys, but if you attack Karelia on G1 and leave that extra Transport and Battleship, what all are you defending France with?


  • I have found leaving that BB afloat creates a very bad situation.  When I am the Allies and I still have that BB, I drop a carrier and send american planes, after that Germany has little chance of dismantling the fleet, they can ill afford to spend money to just take down that fleet, it completely turns the game around if that BB is still alive.


  • After that, if the canadian fleet is still there as well, you can espect a landig in france with a tank, 2 inf, and art, along with BB support and a loaded carrier for trny support for the NO


  • I just had the worst G1 ever!

    I used a Baltic, E. Pol, Ukraine, Egypt, English Battleship, Destroyer off Norway, no attack on English Cruiser/Detroyer gameplan.  I wanted to maximize units vs. Russia Rd. 1 so I gambled the Italian Fleet.

    Total Backfire!  I got swept in Egypt, fled one Armor and took out 1 English Infantry.  Lost in Baltic, 1st round everything missed, I lost 5 men, and fled my artillery back to Poland for Round 2.  I lost all my subs, but took out my targets around England.  What’s worse, I bought 1 Bomber and 6 Infantry.

    England, went IC India, wiped out the Italian Fleet took Libya and Algeria!  The only good thing that came out was Russia buying 10 Infantry (okay, not so good) and England losing both fighters taking my German Cruiser.

    Guess what?  I’m winning!

    Italy never did much anyway, that’s how I broke the first round surrender thoughts.  That IC India is a money pit.  And US went 100% Pacific, and we’re not sure if there’s anything there but a big sacrifice.

    Germany can and will come back always if left for Russia and half of England.  I thought I’d be holding a candle in a bomb shelter somewhere in Bavaria.  Turns out I’m the one doing the bombing!!

    For all the come-backers out there…


  • @RogertheShrubber:

    After that, if the canadian fleet is still there as well, you can espect a landig in france with a tank, 2 inf, and art, along with BB support and a loaded carrier for trny support for the NO

    Yeah, losing France for Karelia is definitely an unfavorable trade.  And you won’t even get to keep it till next turn, so you can’t really say you’re getting an AA gun.  Add that to the possibility of losing 1-2 FIG and it just seems like a blunder.


  • @Ó:

    Yes, you are correct in that notion, ships may not pass unless you’ve control both sides of the Suez Canal. However, I think that you can still pass through even if you just captured both sides on your combat phase. I’m not definite but I’m thinking it’s more than likely. Speaking of which, I meant to propose to people who wish it, that the Dardenelles (between Bulgaria/Romania and Turkey) cannot be passed unless on controls Bulgaria Romania, and that the Straits of Gibraltar (between Gibraltar and Morroco/Algeria) cannot be passed unless one controls Gibraltar. Of course this is nowhere stated in the rules, but it is more realistic historically, as Russian ships could not leave the Black Sea, and Axis ships could not leave the Mediterranean. My friends and I have agreed on this, though it curtails Italian expansion to the West, unless the Axis take Gibraltar. We thought about similiar rules regarding the Sound between Denmark and Southern Sweden, gaining or denying entrance to the Baltic, but found them unfair, as Germany could then build a massive fleet with impunity. Anyway those are simply some house rules we use, to add more historic flavor, if you like the sound of them, use them, if you think it’s a bad idea, don’t use them. Just putting in my 2 cents……

    i like the idea…


  • Only played Germany once but I like the Karelia rush on G1 except I have to disagree w/Jen on strafing Egypt…numbers just don’t work imo?  I would tranny the German tank/inf from France down to Africa for  a G2 assault!  I wouldn’t be that concerned w/English reinforcements because Japan should be putting the squeeze play on them.  India and the other Brit territories are more important to Japan than chasing the Chinese around!  I would send the 2 U-boats/1 ftr to hit the Cr/DD off of Spain on G1 to keep the Italian navy safe!  Italy keeps popping amphib assaults on Cauc while the Germans concentrate there as well!  Karelia is much easier for the Allies to reinforce imo!  Still a little disappointed that Germany has to hold on til big brother Japan gets there but its a great game nevertheless!!

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @cymerdown:

    @Cmdr:

    Jennifer’s Basic German Strategy Guide for 1941:

    1)  Amphibiously assault Karelia.  You should get it every time with various losses, once I even got it without loss, which was a fun game!

    Cost analysis:
    -3 Infantry, -1 Fighter: Cost 19 IPC
    Destroy 5 Infantry, 1 Artillery: Benefit: 19 IPC
    Capture AA Gun: +6 IPC
    Collect for Land: +2 IPC
    Collect for National Objective: +5 IPC

    Net: +13 IPC (+7 if you don’t consider taking the AA Gun into account.)

    Well, you didn’t mention your specific allocations and buys, but if you attack Karelia on G1 and leave that extra Transport and Battleship, what all are you defending France with?

    bear in mind this was written about 80 games ago when I was even less experienced than I am now (since no one is ever a master, certainly not until a year has gone by) but the original idea was to leave France with only an infantry (forcing England to attack it with more than an infantry) and build up infantry and armor with Germany to follow up your attack with Russia

    Italy would be responsible for liberating and eventually preventing the fall of France.

    That was the original idea.


  • yes with this correction, your German guide is pretty solid.


  • @Cmdr:

    bear in mind this was written about 80 games ago when I was even less experienced than I am now (since no one is ever a master, certainly not until a year has gone by) but the original idea was to leave France with only an infantry (forcing England to attack it with more than an infantry) and build up infantry and armor with Germany to follow up your attack with Russia

    Italy would be responsible for liberating and eventually preventing the fall of France.

    That was the original idea.

    Ah, ok.  I haven’t played too many games as yet, but it seems to me a bit too strong for UK if they’re able to get that extra income for even just one turn - it seems they would use it to build a bunch of extra men and transports to threaten again next turn, etc.

    Instead of taking Karelia, I use an interesting allocation of German units that accomplishes two things: 1) Ensure that any counterattack by Russia on R1 against German starting tanks are long-odds fights, and 2) Have all 6 starting tanks in range of Karelia on G2.

    Allocation:
    Ukraine: 3 INF from Bulgaria; 1 FIG from Poland
    East Poland: 2 INF from Poland; 1 ART, 2 ARM from Bulgaria
    Baltic States: 2 INF, 1 ART, 2 ARM from Poland, 1 INF, 1 ART from Germany, 2 ARM from Czechoslovakia

    The downside to that allocation is that the southern part of the front is going to be held pretty weakly until the G1 buys start showing up.  Therefore, it is Italy’s job to push a few units east to stand on Bulgaria until they can be replaced with German units, at which time the Italian units will be in a good position to be taken away by transports anyway.


  • I just saw questioneer’s pic. All I have to say to you is:

    GOOOOO BLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUE!

  • '16 '15 '10

    Great discussion.

    It’s very tough to choose which British units to attack.  I have a hard time allowing the destroyer/tranny off Canada to live, since it would be easy to kill it with 2 subs or just 1 bomber.  But no fighters can reach, and if I only send 1 sub that attack could fail.  Anyway, it seems like a good bet to destroy at least one of the British transports so there’s minimal threat of a landing that could destroy the German air force.

    So which target takes priority–the BB/tr or the DD/tr?  It’s hard to clear the Atlantic without the bomber but I need that bomber in Egypt–success in that battle seems critical for Axis war aims and the bomber is the unit that swings the odds in Germany’s favor.


  • When I play as Germany I attack bold on G1, like most. I don’t worry too much about my fleet or navy. Every turn I get one fighter and however many other inf/art pairs I can get. By turn 3 I have a massive wave of planes, inf, and artillery that the russian player really gets mad at.

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