Germany Basic Strategies, Concepts and Ideas

[Jennifer]

You should actually win all of them, Questioner.  They all have 85-99% odds of success, give or take.  I posted the numbers somewhere, and I don’t feel like going to Frood and running them again just to post them again.

[questioneer]

@Cmdr:

You should actually win all of them, Questioner.  They all have 85-99% odds of success, give or take.  I posted the numbers somewhere, and I don’t feel like going to Frood and running them again just to post them again.

your right, but what i meant is that you thin yourself out too much verses a strong KGF.  I realize that taking some risks as Germany is necessary if you are going to win with them, but against a good allied player, he’s gonna find an imbalance or crease to take advantage of ( I can expand on this more later if you want).  Unless you play with a bid or something, in which case I would put it in Africa.

[Jennifer]

I agree, you are quite thin for the next round.  You should have recovered greatly by round 3, especially with +15+15+15 National Objective Income over those three rounds.

Meanwhile, your bombers should be enough to keep the allies at least restrained in the Atlantic.

The idea behind my approach is to break Russia early.  They only have the one tank and by hitting Karelia you force them to use the tank in Karelia (meaning not in Ukraine, East Poland or Baltic States.)

[U-505]

@Cmdr:

1 Inf, 1 Art, 3 Fig OR 1 Inf, 1 Art, 2 Fig is more than 40% of the time.  More units or less units is 60% of the time (pretty evenly split.)

If you run it on frood, you have to remember to put 2 Atk. Tra/land units die last to get accurate numbers, that’s where you’re coming up lacking I think.

90% Germany wins, 10% Germany loses (rounded of course)

Out of that 90% almost the entire 90% is with two ground units at least (meaning Inf, Art, 2 Arm in Karelia for Russia 1 to deal with.)

---

Attacker results:
Probability % # units                   /     losses              cost
        4.79% 8: 3 Inf, 1 Art, 4 Fig. no units. :                 0 IPCs
  15.34%      7: 2 Inf, 1 Art, 4 Fig. 1 Inf. :                 3 IPCs
  23.9% 6: 1 Inf, 1 Art, 4 Fig. 2 Inf. :                 6 IPCs
  23.5% 5: 1 Art, 4 Fig.         3 Inf. :                 9 IPCs
  0.04% 5: 1 Inf, 1 Art, 3 Fig. 2 Inf, 1 Fig. :         16 IPCs
  13.75%      4: 1 Art, 3 Fig.         3 Inf, 1 Fig. :         19 IPCs
        0.05% 4: 1 Inf, 1 Art, 2 Fig. 2 Inf, 2 Fig. :         26 IPCs
  6.58% 3: 1 Art, 2 Fig.         3 Inf, 2 Fig. :         29 IPCs
  0.04% 3: 1 Inf, 1 Art, 1 Fig. 2 Inf, 3 Fig. :         36 IPCs
  3.9%         2: 1 Art, 1 Fig.         3 Inf, 3 Fig. :          39 IPCs
  0.01% 2: 1 Inf, 1 Art.         2 Inf, 4 Fig. :         46 IPCs
  1.93% 1: 1 Art.                 3 Inf, 4 Fig. :         49 IPCs
  6.17% 0: no units.                 3 Inf, 1 Art, 4 Fig. : 53 IPCs

Yes I did specify that 2 ground units must survive and the numbers I got were nowhere near as bad for the Russians as yours. Looks like, at the very least, you forgot to include the AA gun in you sim.

And you can’t use the LHTR or Revised options for the sim because the DD shot is an auto-kill in Revised but in AA50 the hit unit gets to return fire before it dies. You might have to select the Europe option but I don’t exactly know the rules for Europe so I don’t know if it follows the revised rules for bombardments or AA50’s.

[Jennifer]

I didn’t use the cruiser nor the AA Gun.

AA Gun 4@1
Cruiser 1@3

Pretty much evens out.

[U-505]

@Cmdr:

I didn’t use the cruiser nor the AA Gun.

AA Gun 4@1
Cruiser 1@3

Pretty much evens out.

Uh, no it doesn’t.

For starters, the AA is capable of hitting multiple times and the CA is not. Plus, the AA hits are auto-kill while the CA’s, again, are not. The AA easily has the advantage over the CA there and by removing one for the other you are short-changing the Russians.

[cymerdown]

@Cmdr:

Jennifer’s Basic German Strategy Guide for 1941:

1)  Amphibiously assault Karelia.  You should get it every time with various losses, once I even got it without loss, which was a fun game!

Cost analysis:
-3 Infantry, -1 Fighter: Cost 19 IPC
Destroy 5 Infantry, 1 Artillery: Benefit: 19 IPC
Capture AA Gun: +6 IPC
Collect for Land: +2 IPC
Collect for National Objective: +5 IPC

Net: +13 IPC (+7 if you don’t consider taking the AA Gun into account.)

Well, you didn’t mention your specific allocations and buys, but if you attack Karelia on G1 and leave that extra Transport and Battleship, what all are you defending France with?

[tloger]

I have found leaving that BB afloat creates a very bad situation.  When I am the Allies and I still have that BB, I drop a carrier and send american planes, after that Germany has little chance of dismantling the fleet, they can ill afford to spend money to just take down that fleet, it completely turns the game around if that BB is still alive.

[tloger]

After that, if the canadian fleet is still there as well, you can espect a landig in france with a tank, 2 inf, and art, along with BB support and a loaded carrier for trny support for the NO

[Capt. Winters]

I just had the worst G1 ever!

I used a Baltic, E. Pol, Ukraine, Egypt, English Battleship, Destroyer off Norway, no attack on English Cruiser/Detroyer gameplan.  I wanted to maximize units vs. Russia Rd. 1 so I gambled the Italian Fleet.

Total Backfire!  I got swept in Egypt, fled one Armor and took out 1 English Infantry.  Lost in Baltic, 1st round everything missed, I lost 5 men, and fled my artillery back to Poland for Round 2.  I lost all my subs, but took out my targets around England.  What’s worse, I bought 1 Bomber and 6 Infantry.

England, went IC India, wiped out the Italian Fleet took Libya and Algeria!  The only good thing that came out was Russia buying 10 Infantry (okay, not so good) and England losing both fighters taking my German Cruiser.

Guess what?  I’m winning!

Italy never did much anyway, that’s how I broke the first round surrender thoughts.  That IC India is a money pit.  And US went 100% Pacific, and we’re not sure if there’s anything there but a big sacrifice.

Germany can and will come back always if left for Russia and half of England.  I thought I’d be holding a candle in a bomb shelter somewhere in Bavaria.  Turns out I’m the one doing the bombing!!

For all the come-backers out there…

[cymerdown]

@RogertheShrubber:

After that, if the canadian fleet is still there as well, you can espect a landig in france with a tank, 2 inf, and art, along with BB support and a loaded carrier for trny support for the NO

Yeah, losing France for Karelia is definitely an unfavorable trade.  And you won’t even get to keep it till next turn, so you can’t really say you’re getting an AA gun.  Add that to the possibility of losing 1-2 FIG and it just seems like a blunder.

[Bigtiti]

@Ó:

Yes, you are correct in that notion, ships may not pass unless you’ve control both sides of the Suez Canal. However, I think that you can still pass through even if you just captured both sides on your combat phase. I’m not definite but I’m thinking it’s more than likely. Speaking of which, I meant to propose to people who wish it, that the Dardenelles (between Bulgaria/Romania and Turkey) cannot be passed unless on controls Bulgaria Romania, and that the Straits of Gibraltar (between Gibraltar and Morroco/Algeria) cannot be passed unless one controls Gibraltar. Of course this is nowhere stated in the rules, but it is more realistic historically, as Russian ships could not leave the Black Sea, and Axis ships could not leave the Mediterranean. My friends and I have agreed on this, though it curtails Italian expansion to the West, unless the Axis take Gibraltar. We thought about similiar rules regarding the Sound between Denmark and Southern Sweden, gaining or denying entrance to the Baltic, but found them unfair, as Germany could then build a massive fleet with impunity. Anyway those are simply some house rules we use, to add more historic flavor, if you like the sound of them, use them, if you think it’s a bad idea, don’t use them. Just putting in my 2 cents……

i like the idea…

[SourKraut]

Only played Germany once but I like the Karelia rush on G1 except I have to disagree w/Jen on strafing Egypt…numbers just don’t work imo?  I would tranny the German tank/inf from France down to Africa for  a G2 assault!  I wouldn’t be that concerned w/English reinforcements because Japan should be putting the squeeze play on them.  India and the other Brit territories are more important to Japan than chasing the Chinese around!  I would send the 2 U-boats/1 ftr to hit the Cr/DD off of Spain on G1 to keep the Italian navy safe!  Italy keeps popping amphib assaults on Cauc while the Germans concentrate there as well!  Karelia is much easier for the Allies to reinforce imo!  Still a little disappointed that Germany has to hold on til big brother Japan gets there but its a great game nevertheless!!

[Jennifer]

@cymerdown:

@Cmdr:

Jennifer’s Basic German Strategy Guide for 1941:

1)  Amphibiously assault Karelia.  You should get it every time with various losses, once I even got it without loss, which was a fun game!

Cost analysis:
-3 Infantry, -1 Fighter: Cost 19 IPC
Destroy 5 Infantry, 1 Artillery: Benefit: 19 IPC
Capture AA Gun: +6 IPC
Collect for Land: +2 IPC
Collect for National Objective: +5 IPC

Net: +13 IPC (+7 if you don’t consider taking the AA Gun into account.)

Well, you didn’t mention your specific allocations and buys, but if you attack Karelia on G1 and leave that extra Transport and Battleship, what all are you defending France with?

bear in mind this was written about 80 games ago when I was even less experienced than I am now (since no one is ever a master, certainly not until a year has gone by) but the original idea was to leave France with only an infantry (forcing England to attack it with more than an infantry) and build up infantry and armor with Germany to follow up your attack with Russia

Italy would be responsible for liberating and eventually preventing the fall of France.

That was the original idea.

[questioneer]

yes with this correction, your German guide is pretty solid.

[cymerdown]

@Cmdr:

bear in mind this was written about 80 games ago when I was even less experienced than I am now (since no one is ever a master, certainly not until a year has gone by) but the original idea was to leave France with only an infantry (forcing England to attack it with more than an infantry) and build up infantry and armor with Germany to follow up your attack with Russia

Italy would be responsible for liberating and eventually preventing the fall of France.

That was the original idea.

Ah, ok.  I haven’t played too many games as yet, but it seems to me a bit too strong for UK if they’re able to get that extra income for even just one turn - it seems they would use it to build a bunch of extra men and transports to threaten again next turn, etc.

Instead of taking Karelia, I use an interesting allocation of German units that accomplishes two things: 1) Ensure that any counterattack by Russia on R1 against German starting tanks are long-odds fights, and 2) Have all 6 starting tanks in range of Karelia on G2.

Allocation:
Ukraine: 3 INF from Bulgaria; 1 FIG from Poland
East Poland: 2 INF from Poland; 1 ART, 2 ARM from Bulgaria
Baltic States: 2 INF, 1 ART, 2 ARM from Poland, 1 INF, 1 ART from Germany, 2 ARM from Czechoslovakia

The downside to that allocation is that the southern part of the front is going to be held pretty weakly until the G1 buys start showing up.  Therefore, it is Italy’s job to push a few units east to stand on Bulgaria until they can be replaced with German units, at which time the Italian units will be in a good position to be taken away by transports anyway.

[agutting]

I just saw questioneer’s pic. All I have to say to you is:

GOOOOO BLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUE!

[Zhukov44]

Great discussion.

It’s very tough to choose which British units to attack.  I have a hard time allowing the destroyer/tranny off Canada to live, since it would be easy to kill it with 2 subs or just 1 bomber.  But no fighters can reach, and if I only send 1 sub that attack could fail.  Anyway, it seems like a good bet to destroy at least one of the British transports so there’s minimal threat of a landing that could destroy the German air force.

So which target takes priority–the BB/tr or the DD/tr?  It’s hard to clear the Atlantic without the bomber but I need that bomber in Egypt–success in that battle seems critical for Axis war aims and the bomber is the unit that swings the odds in Germany’s favor.

[MasterChief096]

When I play as Germany I attack bold on G1, like most. I don’t worry too much about my fleet or navy. Every turn I get one fighter and however many other inf/art pairs I can get. By turn 3 I have a massive wave of planes, inf, and artillery that the russian player really gets mad at.

[Bigtiti]

@Uncle_Joe:

I’m not really sure its ever a good idea to let the Brit BB live on turn 1. It probably the only time you’ll be able to catch it alone. Killing the TR with it is just icing on the cake. It will require at least one of your planes however (and the 2 subs). But I’d rather leave the DD/TR alone than the BB/TR. 27 IPCs is too tasty to leave floating around. :)

what bout seazone 12?
if you don’t kill it, they’ll kill italy fleet