Can the Allies win in 1942?

[Woodstock]

And then to conclude, an answer to Jen’s questions.

We’re two rounds in and China’s obliterated,

Yes? What did you expect? It’s China for god’s sake. They dont even have an economy. Offcourse they are dead.
But play those few units you have right, and it should Japan take at least till turn 3 before actually being able to move through China.

England’s stuck on their little island and anything bigger than a paper boat they put in the water is sunk IMMEDIATELY

I hope this is an exaggeration, because else, you have effed up as UK. How can you not be able to rebuild some fleet that can at least survive a bit, with a sea zone at the other side of UK?
Remember, you don’t need to actually get off the Islnd before turn 3, or 4. That means you can dedicate to navy and airforce in utrn 1,2 and 3.

and Russia’s standing on her own while

Offcourse they are. And they can be…untill round 4,.

Japan and Germany come marching at her.

Logically…but they won’t make it there untill turn 4, the turn on which Allied hell will be unleashed on every soft spot.

(Oh yea, and Italy’s so powerful they have a Complex in Egypt and are laughing and having a good old time with it….)

Now what can Italy possibly do in S-Africa, that actuially poses a threat to you?
Build 2 units. Whoop dee doo.

Of course, it’s only game one of 1942 for us, but I’m seriously wondering if maybe we need to buff the British a bit?

Hell no.
Off course, I have played only 1 game of '42, and that was a win for me as the Axis, but the more and more I look at it, and also taking any other global A&A variant in memory, where every game I lost was when the Allied pull this strategy aswell…I am starting to believe that a well-played Operation Torch is a guaranteed path to succes.

[Jennifer]

Well, things have changed a bit after 20 some odd games. :P

BTW, that Italian complex is in Egypt, not S. Africa.

Anyway, as I said, a quick strike in the Pacific iwth America, before Japan can get squared away, seems to be key here.

[daniel960112003]

I’ve played 8 games over the past 2 weeks (average 6 hours…started one at 9pm till 3am!!! Swapping each time, I have found the key to 42’ is the British Empire.  Its not called “the Empire” for nothing!

If Japan goes to China, then build factories in Australia and India, and then fly in the aircover to what we found quickly became the Great Wall of 10+ chinese infantry with the lone american fighter.  If Italy goes Africa build another Factory in SA.  The longer Japan gets bogged down in China, the more time the British Empire has time to build up forces globally.

In the last game I played Japan went all out on China and Britain’s 42ipcs (it slightly outweighs america “the arsenal of democracy” versus “British Dominance”) were spread evenly across the globe.  The problem with america is that they are in one place, far from everyone and can only attack one person with hell, after 4,5 turns.  Britain can be attacking anyone, on turn 3: (UK1: factories India, Australia, UK2: units in India if Japan to China, or units India to Middle East UK3: deploy built units).  In none of our games has the British Empire been brought to its knees, apart from when my brothers went for “operation we think Germany is the only Axis worth worrying about”, which resulted in a lot of strategic bombing, that stragically lost bombers and vexed Germany more than anything.

What has been said about the British fleet is true: I have never seen the fleet gone, although the Soviets always seem to take a pounding, as in all games, Germany has thrown absolutely everything at Russia, and the Italians also, so the British Fleet survives quite happily making lol-ish transporter attacks into NWeurope, Norway, Gibraltar, Morroco, and the Luftwaffe is killing slavs.  However in one game, the Fleet had ended up in the Med somehow, and so the Germans in one game built 3 transports 3inf3tanks alongside the same already built alongside 4bomber 6 fighters, but I as the British cheekily placed one submarine off the coast of Denmark, to the cry of “damn you British-submarine-2+ dice roll taking out the german boatwaffe because Hitler forgot to build one lousy destroyer”.  Britain proper cannot fall, and the Empire will survive in the east, if Japan goes China.  In most games Britain has been dominant, as it can build anywhere.

[Blodmotor]

Daniel
However in one game, the Fleet had ended up in the Med somehow, and so the Germans in one game built 3 transports 3inf3tanks alongside the same already built alongside 4bomber 6 fighters, but I as the British cheekily placed one submarine off the coast of Denmark, to the cry of “damn you British-submarine-2+ dice roll taking out the german boatwaffe because Hitler forgot to build one lousy destroyer”.  Britain proper cannot fall, and the Empire will survive in the east, if Japan goes China.  In most games Britain has been dominant, as it can build anywhere.

that is against the rules. fleets can choose to ignore subs. sub blocking does not exist in AA50.

[daniel960112003]

hmm! Subs ignored by enemy fleet? But what if the Sub doesn’t ignore the fleet and opens fire on it! Why not let armies move across Russia and just ‘ignore’ any infantry they meet…stupid rules…I never shall play this game again!

[HannibalSW]

I do think the rule that transports pass right over subs is slightly sckewed.  I thought maybe the sub owned could decide to surface and attack or stay hidden, but I guess that is a no no.  I can understand a sub commander not wanting to surface and face cruisers, carriers and a battleship, but transports, man that is like a flock of sheep passing over the wolf without a shepard nearby!

[tin_snips]

^^ agreed

undefended transports should not get the option to move into sea zones with only submarines, lest they be destroyed

[wodan46]

Why are allies at such a disadvantage.  Sure, Japan’s taken all the island stuff, but look what happened to their fleet:

Old Japan Fleet: 3 Carriers, 9 Fighters, 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 5 Transports
New Japan Fleet: 2 Carriers, 7 Fighters, 2 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 1 Transport, 1 Bomber, 1 Sub
So they got a Battleship, a Bomber, and a Sub, at the price of 1 Carrier, 2 Fighters, and 4 Transports

Worse, enemy fleets have become much nastier:
Old British Pacific Fleet: 2 Destroyers, 2 Transports
New British Pacific Fleet: 1 Carrier, 2 Fighters, 1 Destroyer, 1 Transport

Old American Pacific Fleet: 1 Carrier, 1 Fighter, 2 Destroyer, 1 Battleship, 2 Transports
New American Pacific Fleet: 1 Carriers, 3 Fighters, 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 1 Sub, 1 Transport, 2 Bombers

Likely outcome after J1
Japan Fleet: 2 Carriers, 6 Fighters, 2 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport, 1 Bomber
British Pacific Fleet: 1 Fighter
American Pacific Fleet: 2 Fighters, 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Sub, 1 Transport, 2 Bombers

Germany and Italy can’t really threaten Egypt at all, while Japan can’t threaten India seriously unless they sacrifice China and possibly their chances of winning at sea.

Britain should simply build an IC in Egypt and India, reinforce them, and start pummeling Italy with help from America.

[Jennifer]

Nice review of the game situation at the start of 1942, Wodan.

Honestly, anyone else get the feeling that Wizards only play tested 1941 (and piss-poorly at that)?

Thinking of getting some house rules where Japan gets the 1941 fleet + 1 battleship, +1 destroyer.  Probably put the new Battleship and Destroyer in SZ 61 since that way the new units cannot negatively impact the British nor the Americans in the first round.  (They’d lose the Solomon’s Submarine, small price to pay I think for the extra BB/DD).

[Blaarg]

In my experience, Axis are the ones with a disadvantage.

[wally]

I haven’t played a 42 match yet, because 41 was simply too much fun!

Just looking at the maps though, it does look like the Allies are at a serious disadvantage. I sure don’t see Russia lasting very long, and the British presence in Asia is laughable because it can be wiped out on the first turn.

41 seems very well balanced though, so folks who thin 42 is unbalanced could always stick with that.

[fanofbond]

in the middle of a game now and it isn’t looking very good for allies currently.  AT this point the ussr is about out of the game, but with some lucky roles it can stay in for a while longer(maybe a turn).  the us though has pounding at japan’s doorstep (will take a few turns to build forces for invasion)  overall though i believe it depends on how ussr plays and how long it lives.

[tin_snips]

you would think they’d have added in some more units for the Allies, considering they were the ones who won the real war  :-D

[Jennifer]

Actually, it really looks bad for the allies at the start of 1942, but in reality, it seems like the axis are paper thin and the allies can just roll right through and crush all resistance.

Take the Pacific.  America got some uber power boosts while Japan actually got nerfed a little with the loss of a carrier and fighters. (Okay, you get a BB, but who here is gunna tell me they’d trade a carrier and 2 fighters for 1 BB?)

Europe looks really bad for Russia, but you have to look closer at the bomber and fighter (a huge boost for Russia over 1941!) and the increased armor in Russia.  Much easier for Russia to push back the Germans a bit and get some breathing room in 1942!

China nearly doubles in manpower! (to be a true doubling, they’d need an extra fighter, but even the game designers had to resist that!)  How that can be justified no one can tell, seriously, by 1942 in games startin in 1941, China does not even exist, let alone have double the manpower and all their territories!

England’s got a massively larger fleet presence in the Indian Ocean, but they have a lot less land.  Dunno if that’s enough to justify the problems the Axis have though.

Given the few games of '42 I’ve played, I’d wager that each axis power needs 20 IPC in bid units at the start of the game to even the score.  perhaps 24 for Germany, 24 for Japan, 16 for Italy instead of 20 each. (That might be over kill, but you get the gist.)

[tin_snips]

really? see, i think i need more people in my play group. i beat them all the time  8-)

[Jennifer]

@tin_snips:

really? see, i think i need more people in my play group. i beat them all the time  8-)

I play on the forums. :)

[tin_snips]

i guess i’ll have to get around to playing a forum game sometime haha

[Jennifer]

@tin_snips:

i guess i’ll have to get around to playing a forum game sometime haha

I was hesitant to at first as well.  But honestly, I learned so much about Axis and Allies when I started playing on the forums it wasn’t even funny.

For instance, the Russian “Wall” in Yakut SSR.  Dead zoning Karelia in Round 1 in hopes of killing a massive stack of German armor.  The Industrial Complex in S. Africa.  The Kwangbang maneuver (Russia attacks Manchuria, England attacks Kwangtung, America cleans up FIC and thus puts serious lag time into Japan which has to first recover and then move forward.)

Those refer to classic, obviously, but the same applies to Revised and Anniversary.  The knowledge base of online players is far larger because there are many more players, thus, you see new ideas and concepts you didn’t think of and your group never contemplated.

From there, you can bring the ideas back to your group and make the game more fun for everyone involved.  At least, that’s how it worked for me.

[tin_snips]

sounds good. i already know about the s. africa IC though. had a friends father who would do it EVERY GAME as UK. very annoying  :lol:

[mpc220]

I think the Axis is pretty well hosed in 1942.  So long as the USA goes Pacific only, it can ALWAYS hold Hawaii, which means that barring freak circumstances Germany has to take Moscow (I assume we’re using a 13 VC victory condition here).  That’s not going to be easy… on G1, you HAVE to build to the Baltic fleet if you want to have any chance of keeping it, and you need to buy at least a carrier.  So now you’re down from $37 to $23.  France is underdefended, so you’re going to need to divert some of your G1 Berlin troops there.  You’re going to need to send some stuff down to Africa.  By the time you’re done, you’re way, way behind in keeping parity with Russia on the Eastern Front.  It’s hard to come back, too, because you’re limited to building ten units.  You can build a factory in France or Poland, but you want to do it early, and on G1 you just don’t have a ton of cash.

I only play offline, so I don’t know if that experience jibes with what you guys are seeing.  But on G1 you have a country that is way, way overextended.  Unlike with the Allies, if you screw up even a little you can blow your chances of winning.

I’m not sure if the game needs a “fix” yet, but two ideas I’d like to try:

• Germany starts with a bomber in France.  This would make it a lot easier to sink Allied shipping early on and take some of the heat off of Western Europe.

• The Skagerrak acts like the Suez Canal, and is impassible to ships unless you control both Northwest Europe and Norway at the beginning of your turn.  (This isn’t my idea; someone over at another forum came up with it.)  It could really help breathe a lot of life into Germany’s Baltic fleet, since it’s generally only going to be hit with planes.