Can the Allies win in 1942?

[Jennifer]

I mean seriously, do they even have a chance?

We’re two rounds in and China’s obliterated, England’s stuck on their little island and anything bigger than a paper boat they put in the water is sunk IMMEDIATELY and Russia’s standing on her own while Japan and Germany come marching at her.

(Oh yea, and Italy’s so powerful they have a Complex in Egypt and are laughing and having a good old time with it….)

Of course, it’s only game one of 1942 for us, but I’m seriously wondering if maybe we need to buff the British a bit?

[a44bigdog]

And I will repeat my thoughts for discussion here.

When the Axis achieves the territory gains that they start with in '42 in '41 it is about round 3 or 4. The Axis have much more units on the board especially at the front in '42 than they do in the same time frame in a '41 scenario (round 3 or 4). Yes the Allies start with a few more units scattered around the world but I also think by round 3 or 4 in '41 game they ca nhave produced more.

[MasterChief096]

I have played AAA 4 times so far, 3 times as Axis, and once as allies.

I have ONLY played the 42 scenario. I have lost twice as axis, and one once, and won with allies.

Sounds like your situation was just bad luck on rolling….

These are what (in my opinion) the allies have to do:

1. Soviets are the first allied force to have their turn. They immediately need to pressure Germany into sending forces there way. They do this by sending invading Belorussia, Ukraine, and Eastern Ukraine. By eight infantry. Drop 4 in Caucasus, 2 in Russia, and 2 in Karelia. 4 in Caucasus is crucial because Italy can invade you there their first turn if need be.

Germany goes next. If a German player plays his cards right, he can destroy the UK’s navy around Europe, but it is a very risky business and could backfire… the end result would be the german player having no navy or airforce in Western Europe.

a. If he destroys the UK’s navy build fighters/bombers in the UK. Send the infantry/artillery from South Africa up to Egypt to ensure you don’t lose allied foothold in Africa. Bomb/fighter raid the German navy to hell, don’t give him a chance to invade hte UK. If Russia is doing what he is supposed to do, Germany will keep sending ground forces to the Eastern Front. Eventually your air superiority will be great enough that you can destroy his navy, and build your own. Make sure you build it in the Sea Zone inbetween Northern Ireland and hte mainland of the UK… so if he has a fleet at Germany, he can’t attack you with it. Don’t lose Egypt.

b. If your fleet remains, invade Norway or France. Norway is probably a better move. It is worth three. You can send your fighters/bomber to assist either 4 infantry, or 2 infantry/atillery/tank that land in Norway. If you secure Norway, it can be costly for Germany to take back, and it gives you an extra foothold in Europe. You can reinforce hte Russian front by taking Finland and moving through Karelia and down into the Eastern fights.

Make sure Gibraltar has at least 2 infantry defending it, as it is a bonus to IPCs at the end of each turn. Heavily fortifying northern Africa pretty much shuts Italy out of the game. Morrocco provides a good staging ground for the Americans, while controlling the Suez Canal can prove a strategic choke point for reinforcements.

America is a bit more tricky to play. Japan starts with way more Naval power… (they start with two battleships, if they opt to build another one… bam, 6 hits to kill them all, but htey will have fodder such as destroyers, cruisers, aircraft carriers, fighters…). I have yet to formulate an effective strategy for America. So far I have decided to try this next time:

1. If Japan destroys your navy, garrison the homeland and rebuild your naval superiority on the Atlantic, considering you control the Panama canal. Depending on how heavily japan is focusing on China, you may be able to support the UK and Russia by invading Germany in France/Northwestern Europe or invading Italy via the Mediterranean. Send the fighter you have in the East US to Alaska, so that Japan doesn’t get an airbase that can industrial bomb your eastern factory. If you are controlling UK too, send the one guy in western canada to Alaska as well. If possible, drop get AA to Alaska, and garrison Mexico.

If the UK and Russia don’t need help with Germany, send your decent naval force through the Panama Canal and go from there.

Good luck… of course try your own strategies if you think they will work better.

[Jennifer]

I’m finding a very swift attack with America into the Pacific helps significantly.

[Woodstock]

I think, the question is: “How long can Russia hold out on it’s own against Germany?”

Let’s face it, a good Russian player, can usually hold out 4, 5 turns. No matter what. Even if Germany, Italy AND Japan throw everything against Russia, it takes the Axis to reach Moscow that long.
(Face it, Japan needs 4 turns alone, just counting territories. Germany + Italy combined, with Russia throwing everything into that front, it will take them 4 turns aswell.)

And thus, the question should be: “Can the allies hold out 'till, and build a decent invasion force by, round 4?”

And then I think that we all can say, fullheartedly yes.

Forget the Pacific, forget India, forget Africa!
Use the allied units on the board wisely, sparingly and smart, based on conservation (those who can be of use at turn 4 still, spare them!) and delay (those units, who will be dead by turn 4 no matter what, use them as stall) and by round 4, an impressive force can have gathered up during an extended Operation Torch, spread over 4 turns, in Morocco.

At that point, the Allies have a choice of 3 targets. Scandinivia, France, and Italy.
And even Caucasus is within reach, for emergency aid to the Russians.

As a mostly Axis player, I can say…Good luck having all those 4 spots covered by turn 4 as Germany…

But what, when the Axis do not go KRF?
Well…nothing. You just carry on.
What can the Axis have possibly achieved in 4 turns, if they did not go KRF? Japan vs USA…takes them at least 4 turns to actually be a threat to Western USA.

Germany vs UK? Sure…Germany can start Operation Sealion…but again…if they want to be sure that that will succeed, they need to put in every IPC, and face a stupid British player.

By that turn 4, with a Germany putting everything in Operation Sea Lion, the Japans going for Los Angeles, Russia should be at least in the Vicinity of Berlin.

Plus, the combined Allied forces, unleash hell on Europe, immediately seizing Germany’s and Italian NO’s and major income territories. In 3 places. Good luck recovering from that as Italy or Germany…

I think you have a guaranteed Allied succes there.
…

Can someone prove me wrong please…? This would suck as the Axis player…

[Woodstock]

And then to conclude, an answer to Jen’s questions.

We’re two rounds in and China’s obliterated,

Yes? What did you expect? It’s China for god’s sake. They dont even have an economy. Offcourse they are dead.
But play those few units you have right, and it should Japan take at least till turn 3 before actually being able to move through China.

England’s stuck on their little island and anything bigger than a paper boat they put in the water is sunk IMMEDIATELY

I hope this is an exaggeration, because else, you have effed up as UK. How can you not be able to rebuild some fleet that can at least survive a bit, with a sea zone at the other side of UK?
Remember, you don’t need to actually get off the Islnd before turn 3, or 4. That means you can dedicate to navy and airforce in utrn 1,2 and 3.

and Russia’s standing on her own while

Offcourse they are. And they can be…untill round 4,.

Japan and Germany come marching at her.

Logically…but they won’t make it there untill turn 4, the turn on which Allied hell will be unleashed on every soft spot.

(Oh yea, and Italy’s so powerful they have a Complex in Egypt and are laughing and having a good old time with it….)

Now what can Italy possibly do in S-Africa, that actuially poses a threat to you?
Build 2 units. Whoop dee doo.

Of course, it’s only game one of 1942 for us, but I’m seriously wondering if maybe we need to buff the British a bit?

Hell no.
Off course, I have played only 1 game of '42, and that was a win for me as the Axis, but the more and more I look at it, and also taking any other global A&A variant in memory, where every game I lost was when the Allied pull this strategy aswell…I am starting to believe that a well-played Operation Torch is a guaranteed path to succes.

[Jennifer]

Well, things have changed a bit after 20 some odd games. :P

BTW, that Italian complex is in Egypt, not S. Africa.

Anyway, as I said, a quick strike in the Pacific iwth America, before Japan can get squared away, seems to be key here.

[daniel960112003]

I’ve played 8 games over the past 2 weeks (average 6 hours…started one at 9pm till 3am!!! Swapping each time, I have found the key to 42’ is the British Empire.  Its not called “the Empire” for nothing!

If Japan goes to China, then build factories in Australia and India, and then fly in the aircover to what we found quickly became the Great Wall of 10+ chinese infantry with the lone american fighter.  If Italy goes Africa build another Factory in SA.  The longer Japan gets bogged down in China, the more time the British Empire has time to build up forces globally.

In the last game I played Japan went all out on China and Britain’s 42ipcs (it slightly outweighs america “the arsenal of democracy” versus “British Dominance”) were spread evenly across the globe.  The problem with america is that they are in one place, far from everyone and can only attack one person with hell, after 4,5 turns.  Britain can be attacking anyone, on turn 3: (UK1: factories India, Australia, UK2: units in India if Japan to China, or units India to Middle East UK3: deploy built units).  In none of our games has the British Empire been brought to its knees, apart from when my brothers went for “operation we think Germany is the only Axis worth worrying about”, which resulted in a lot of strategic bombing, that stragically lost bombers and vexed Germany more than anything.

What has been said about the British fleet is true: I have never seen the fleet gone, although the Soviets always seem to take a pounding, as in all games, Germany has thrown absolutely everything at Russia, and the Italians also, so the British Fleet survives quite happily making lol-ish transporter attacks into NWeurope, Norway, Gibraltar, Morroco, and the Luftwaffe is killing slavs.  However in one game, the Fleet had ended up in the Med somehow, and so the Germans in one game built 3 transports 3inf3tanks alongside the same already built alongside 4bomber 6 fighters, but I as the British cheekily placed one submarine off the coast of Denmark, to the cry of “damn you British-submarine-2+ dice roll taking out the german boatwaffe because Hitler forgot to build one lousy destroyer”.  Britain proper cannot fall, and the Empire will survive in the east, if Japan goes China.  In most games Britain has been dominant, as it can build anywhere.

[Blodmotor]

Daniel
However in one game, the Fleet had ended up in the Med somehow, and so the Germans in one game built 3 transports 3inf3tanks alongside the same already built alongside 4bomber 6 fighters, but I as the British cheekily placed one submarine off the coast of Denmark, to the cry of “damn you British-submarine-2+ dice roll taking out the german boatwaffe because Hitler forgot to build one lousy destroyer”.  Britain proper cannot fall, and the Empire will survive in the east, if Japan goes China.  In most games Britain has been dominant, as it can build anywhere.

that is against the rules. fleets can choose to ignore subs. sub blocking does not exist in AA50.

[daniel960112003]

hmm! Subs ignored by enemy fleet? But what if the Sub doesn’t ignore the fleet and opens fire on it! Why not let armies move across Russia and just ‘ignore’ any infantry they meet…stupid rules…I never shall play this game again!

[HannibalSW]

I do think the rule that transports pass right over subs is slightly sckewed.  I thought maybe the sub owned could decide to surface and attack or stay hidden, but I guess that is a no no.  I can understand a sub commander not wanting to surface and face cruisers, carriers and a battleship, but transports, man that is like a flock of sheep passing over the wolf without a shepard nearby!

[tin_snips]

^^ agreed

undefended transports should not get the option to move into sea zones with only submarines, lest they be destroyed

[wodan46]

Why are allies at such a disadvantage.  Sure, Japan’s taken all the island stuff, but look what happened to their fleet:

Old Japan Fleet: 3 Carriers, 9 Fighters, 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 5 Transports
New Japan Fleet: 2 Carriers, 7 Fighters, 2 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 1 Transport, 1 Bomber, 1 Sub
So they got a Battleship, a Bomber, and a Sub, at the price of 1 Carrier, 2 Fighters, and 4 Transports

Worse, enemy fleets have become much nastier:
Old British Pacific Fleet: 2 Destroyers, 2 Transports
New British Pacific Fleet: 1 Carrier, 2 Fighters, 1 Destroyer, 1 Transport

Old American Pacific Fleet: 1 Carrier, 1 Fighter, 2 Destroyer, 1 Battleship, 2 Transports
New American Pacific Fleet: 1 Carriers, 3 Fighters, 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 1 Sub, 1 Transport, 2 Bombers

Likely outcome after J1
Japan Fleet: 2 Carriers, 6 Fighters, 2 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport, 1 Bomber
British Pacific Fleet: 1 Fighter
American Pacific Fleet: 2 Fighters, 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Sub, 1 Transport, 2 Bombers

Germany and Italy can’t really threaten Egypt at all, while Japan can’t threaten India seriously unless they sacrifice China and possibly their chances of winning at sea.

Britain should simply build an IC in Egypt and India, reinforce them, and start pummeling Italy with help from America.

[Jennifer]

Nice review of the game situation at the start of 1942, Wodan.

Honestly, anyone else get the feeling that Wizards only play tested 1941 (and piss-poorly at that)?

Thinking of getting some house rules where Japan gets the 1941 fleet + 1 battleship, +1 destroyer.  Probably put the new Battleship and Destroyer in SZ 61 since that way the new units cannot negatively impact the British nor the Americans in the first round.  (They’d lose the Solomon’s Submarine, small price to pay I think for the extra BB/DD).

[Blaarg]

In my experience, Axis are the ones with a disadvantage.

[wally]

I haven’t played a 42 match yet, because 41 was simply too much fun!

Just looking at the maps though, it does look like the Allies are at a serious disadvantage. I sure don’t see Russia lasting very long, and the British presence in Asia is laughable because it can be wiped out on the first turn.

41 seems very well balanced though, so folks who thin 42 is unbalanced could always stick with that.

[fanofbond]

in the middle of a game now and it isn’t looking very good for allies currently.  AT this point the ussr is about out of the game, but with some lucky roles it can stay in for a while longer(maybe a turn).  the us though has pounding at japan’s doorstep (will take a few turns to build forces for invasion)  overall though i believe it depends on how ussr plays and how long it lives.

[tin_snips]

you would think they’d have added in some more units for the Allies, considering they were the ones who won the real war  :-D

[Jennifer]

Actually, it really looks bad for the allies at the start of 1942, but in reality, it seems like the axis are paper thin and the allies can just roll right through and crush all resistance.

Take the Pacific.  America got some uber power boosts while Japan actually got nerfed a little with the loss of a carrier and fighters. (Okay, you get a BB, but who here is gunna tell me they’d trade a carrier and 2 fighters for 1 BB?)

Europe looks really bad for Russia, but you have to look closer at the bomber and fighter (a huge boost for Russia over 1941!) and the increased armor in Russia.  Much easier for Russia to push back the Germans a bit and get some breathing room in 1942!

China nearly doubles in manpower! (to be a true doubling, they’d need an extra fighter, but even the game designers had to resist that!)  How that can be justified no one can tell, seriously, by 1942 in games startin in 1941, China does not even exist, let alone have double the manpower and all their territories!

England’s got a massively larger fleet presence in the Indian Ocean, but they have a lot less land.  Dunno if that’s enough to justify the problems the Axis have though.

Given the few games of '42 I’ve played, I’d wager that each axis power needs 20 IPC in bid units at the start of the game to even the score.  perhaps 24 for Germany, 24 for Japan, 16 for Italy instead of 20 each. (That might be over kill, but you get the gist.)

[tin_snips]

really? see, i think i need more people in my play group. i beat them all the time  8-)