Brainstorming: What's the best way to kill the Japanese Fleet?

[atarihuana]

why not buy 6 subs US1? they are solomones/ carolines US2, scattered around eastindies US3. japan has got to protect their transports.

lets say sz56 /53 got cleared

US1 6 Subs save 4
US2: AC BB 2 DD save 2
US3: loaded AC 2 DD

leaves u with 3AC 6 ftr 1 BB 5DD in sz56 end US3 and 6 subs already scatterd in the pazific.

japan often buys 2trannies or and IC round1. even if they buy 2 DD J1 and 5 J2 they got 3 AC 6ftr BB CA and 7 DD J2. they will prolly spend another 30-40 IPC J3 and put some subs in the water too…

american bombers at least should sbr italythe first 3 turns. id risk those 4 shots at 1 and then move them back into the pacific.

[Jennifer]

America is building and not advancing because if they advance they have a significant naval threat to contend with that could eliminate them in short order.

Remember, Japan has 9 Fighters in their starting set up!  With 6 Fighters on Carriers and 3 Fighters along the coast, it is theoretically possible to hit the Solomon’s Sea Zone with Cruiser, Battleship, Destroyer and 9 Fighters.

America can get, at most, 2 Destroyers, Carrier, 2 Fighters, Battleship in Solomons by the end of US 1.

That’s a 99% in favor of Japan battle, by the calculator.

Now, if America buys, say, 5 or 6 submarines in SZ 56 and consolidates there, why wouldn’t Japan buy 3 Fighters and some ground units?  (This would give them 12 fighters that can hit your navy; 6 on carriers that land on ground territories and 6 from ground territories that can land on carriers.)

And if America continues, Japan only needs +2 Destroyers to effectively end the Submarine threat from any one or two territories on the board.

With 12 Fighters, 3 Carriers, 3 Destroyers, Cruiser, Battleship (+46 IPC) the Japanese are effectively ensconced in protection for a while and still able to give America enough pause that they keep a wide berth between them.

And once Japan gets 2 or 3 ICs running on the mainland, they don’t need to control SZ 62 any longer and can move their fleet away.

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Do not get me wrong.  I am not saying America cannot defeat the Japanese in the Pacific.  I have plans that I think work effectively at dismantling the Japanese fleet.  But submarines are not the mainland idea behind it.

I believe America needs to focus on Destroyers, another carrier (to land those fighters on), bombers for long range punch and battleships.  Honestly, in this scenario, Cruisers are not cost effective.  Just my opinion on that.  Cruisers are great for the Atlantic, they give you bombardments and can be added to the British fleet at minimal costs to protect against the Luftwaffe. (Carrier, 2 Fighters, 3 Transports and just enough cruisers to stop Germany from posing a serious threat to the fleet is my aim.)

As for submarines, those are units I add in two rounds before I think I’ll engage the enemy.  Why two rounds?  1 Round to move them into position, one round to make the combat move.  By the time i think of serious submarine commitment, the enemy fleet should already be dead, I’m just adding some units for the coup de gras and insurance.

After you control the Pacific, it’s a good idea to put a serious investment of submarines in the water since you can set up a scenario where you can sink anything the enemy builds and have units immune from enemy attack.

[alwayswin]

I have successfully killed the Japanese fleet multiple times but it takes a full four turns of purchases to get it done - but it is worth it.

In order for this to work the UK must be able to put a threathening fleet together in the Atlantic to be able to help Russia deal with Germany and Italy. Make sure the UK is on the same page.

What I’m about to describe is way easier to do in the 1942 setup and even takes less commitment from America.

I will also assume that the game is being played with NO’s.

Let’s assume the US battleship has been killed and if you want, assume the destroyer and transport in SZ56 are also killed - if not, bonus.

US T1 purchase 1 carrier, 1 transport and 3 subs (if you still have the SZ56 transport then buy another sub).

After the first US turn SZ56 should have 2 carriers, 4 fighters, 3 subs, 1 destroyer and 1 transport OR if you’re lucky, a second destroyer and fourth sub.

US T2 purchase 1 battleship, 4 subs and one tech. roll.

US T2 non-combat everything from SZ56 to Alaska and also land at least two of your bombers in Alaska as well.

US T2 place all purchased units in SZ56.

Now Japan is more then likely capable of attacking your boats in Alaska; however, you have a counter attack of 1 battleship, 4 subs and 2 bombers. Even if Japan brought everything over there to deal with you and built more boats the US counter will destroy what’s left.

In my experience Japan does not attack because they want to establish themselves in Asia. Japan will build more boats - fine.

US T3 purchase isn’t set in stone but it should be something like 1 bomber, 1 carrier, 1 fighter and 2 subs.

US T3 non-combat everything from SZ56 to Alaska and build everything in SZ56.

Once again Japan could attack but again your counter attack will finish the job.

If Japan doesn’t attack then no matter what they build the US must attack turn 4. Japan will likely put down one or two more hits in naval units so the attack might seem foolish - it is not. It will work. Even if you don’t kill it all, Japan will likely survive only fighters because again the US has set up a counter attack.

Before you doubt me you must try it. It works, not just once either. This has become my US strategy in both setups. Japan is way too powerful when left alone and buying doing this an India IC becomes possible, China will be able to put a few more men down to stall Japan.

The goal of this strategy is not to invade Japan, that’s never going to happen. All you want to do is delay, delay, delay. Without Japan breathing down Russia’s neck both the Soviets and British can handle Germany. Once you’ve crippled the Japs then you can slowly help in the Atlantic, plus you should still have bombers to fly back over to London.

I will repeat, don’t knock it until you try it AND it has to be full out. You can’t be putting some of your IPC’s in the Atlantic, if you take your foot off the gas you will fail. It must also start turn 1, no later.

As for US T4 purchases, another bomber, fighter and more subs. Japan will not be able to keep up, and if they are then that’s all they’re doing and that is exactly the point.

[alwayswin]

Quick correction on my post: 1941 US starts with only two bombers so both of those must go to Alaska, there is no third bomber.

[bongaroo]

If I were Japan I’d be building a fleet to counter the USA fleet purchases.  Would seem silly to watch the US build a fleet that big and not start putting more than just a few boats in the water.

What did Japan buy to match USA in your games?

[bugoo]

Why on earth does everyone want to put the US fleet in SZ 51?  A much better location for the US to rally is SZ 46 and that can be done as early as US 1 with the UK navy.  From there you can take any island in the south pacific, which is where the money is and honestly the most important thing to do for the US.  It is also 3 spaces away from Japan preventing them from hitting you with there builds while still within 2 spaces for the US.  Once you secure that SZ build transports and start taking islands, even if you have to ‘trade’ islands you can afford to do so.  The only thing SZ 46 is good for is 5 UK IPCs.  Yes, the Japs can sink your transports, it doesnt matter if you have the island.  Remember, by the end of J2 most/all Pacific islands are empty.  Later in the game you can push on the main island.

[wodan46]

Hmmm.

A1: Build 1 Carrier, 2 Transports, 1 Bomber, move fleets to Sea Zones 56 and 20
A2: Build 4 Bombers, move Fleet to Sea Zone 46, along with Australians.  Land Bombers in Austr

At end of A2, your forces are as follows:
Solomon Islands: 2 Carriers, 4 Fighters, 2 Destroyers, 2 Transports, 4 Infantry
Australia: 1 Transport, 1 Destroyer, 3 Bombers, 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Western US: 4 Bombers
Sea Zone 44: 1 Destroyer, 1 Transport, 1 Infantry, 1 Artillery (or they can go for Africa if they wish)

At this point, you have a solid force in Solomon Islands, capable of threatening Japanese holdings heavily, and a flight of Bombers that will wreck the Japanese fleet if they attack you at Solomons, as well as punishing unwary transports.

Not to mention, if they built an IC in East Indies J2, you have a pretty good chance of taking it, especially if you landed Bombers in Australia, though in that case, the British Transport might want to stay home so that the full 4 Australian units are there to guard the aircraft.

[Jennifer]

There is another aspect people are forgetting.

Build the US Fleet in the Atlantic, when ready, move it into the Pacific via going under Argentina, going under South Africa or going through the Panama canal.

No one says your fleet has to be built in SZ 56 you know.  Besides, if you build it in SZ 10 you have a couple of brownie points:

1)  You can help liberate and control Africa while you build your fleet.
2)  Japan’s looking at you going KGF, not expecting you to swing back around and attack them in the Pacific, odds are, they won’t be countering your fleet builds but rather will be solely focused on the ground war for SE Asia.

[atarihuana]

is it possible to hit sz53 with 2 ftr, DD  and sz44 with 4 ftr  on J1 and then in NCM move the 2 AC to sz45?

[Unknown Soldier]

@atarihuana:

is it possible to hit sz53 with 2 ftr, DD  and sz44 with 4 ftr  on J1 and then in NCM move the 2 AC to sz45?

Yes, but you would have to use the CV + 2 ftrs from sz61.

[alwayswin]

If you really want to control the islands then you have to control the Tokyo SZ. Sending small fleets with one transport far away from home won’t last. Once you gain control of their main production SZ you can send all the transports you want to take back the islands.

Same goes for the American airforce, those planes are useless in Australia. Using Alaska as an airforce base allows you to help the Russians if need be and it keeps your counter attack in the Tokyo SZ in place. Japan has plenty of IPC’s so I don’t think it’s wise to allow them to put down small fleets that will eventually overpower whatever you have roaming around the islands. It also keeps the Japanese navy away from India, Africa and the Med.

[wodan46]

@alwayswin:

If you really want to control the islands then you have to control the Tokyo SZ. Sending small fleets with one transport far away from home won’t last. Once you gain control of their main production SZ you can send all the transports you want to take back the islands.

Once you control the main production sea zone…  How precisely do you control the Sea Zone around the enemy’s IC, that is two turns away from your IC, when the opponent has a larger starting fleet and better income than you do?

The reason why the Solomon Islands tactic might work is because it is one turn away from the West US IC and two turns away from the Japan IC, and it is one turn away from East Indies/Borneo/Philipines, while those are two turns away from the Japan IC as well.

[wodan46]

Wow, I got a lot of negative karma.  I wonder, for what?  Suggesting ideas that were self-acknowledged to be fringe, to see if they could be developed into something effective?

[Lucifer]

Let’s make one thing clear, US alone cannot kill the Japanese fleet unless the Japanese player don’t know what he’s doing. But if US build only ships and air units in the pacific, then Japan will have to build ships to protect their fleet, or it gets sunk.

So this means less Japanese units to mainland Asia, but there are no strats to kill the Japanese fleet, assuming axis player is experienced, like you can “easily” kill the Italien fleet.
The Italien fleet is much more vulnerable than the Japanese.

Let’s say Japan builds 2 CV and one fighter during turn 1-3, and consolidates in Japan sz. How big navy/air force are you gonna use to kill the Japanese fleet?

[souL]

There should be a UK dd in that fight too, Jen.  Plus, with the buy in turn 1, the 3 carriers are vulnerable in the only place they can stop, SZ 50.  The attack on 3 dd and a fully loaded carrier will likely glean a few zeros before your counter.  3 subs can go tee off on the carrier horde that’s stopped in 50 and the 3 bmb and ftr can clean up the BB/Crs or you can gang up on the carriers if you want to take care of the rest of the fighters.

At least this way you’ve already started in on it in large part and it’s only turn 2.

[wodan46]

@Subotai:

Let’s say Japan builds 2 CV and one fighter during turn 1-3, and consolidates in Japan sz. How big navy/air force are you gonna use to kill the Japanese fleet?

I’ve developed a new KJF plan.  2 CV and a Fighter are not even close to enough.  By the end of Turn 3, the Allies have a large fleet in Indonesia, 10 Bombers on standby in various locales, and have dropped Japan’s economy by somewhere between 16-25 while giving the Allies a needed infusion.  On Turn 4, the Japanese Fleet will be gone, and Japan  possibly SBRed.  At this point, Japan is pretty much a non-player, and while capturing Japan may be hard, at this point you hardly need to.  While Germany might take Russia and Italy might take Africa/Middle East, they can’t even match the Allies in income, let alone hope to keep what they have and somehow grab VCs in the Pacific.

[jemo81]

@wodan46:

@Subotai:

Let’s say Japan builds 2 CV and one fighter during turn 1-3, and consolidates in Japan sz. How big navy/air force are you gonna use to kill the Japanese fleet?

I’ve developed a new KJF plan.  2 CV and a Fighter are not even close to enough.  By the end of Turn 3, the Allies have a large fleet in Indonesia, 10 Bombers on standby in various locales, and have dropped Japan’s economy by somewhere between 16-25 while giving the Allies a needed infusion.  On Turn 4, the Japanese Fleet will be gone, and Japan  possibly SBRed.  At this point, Japan is pretty much a non-player, and while capturing Japan may be hard, at this point you hardly need to.  While Germany might take Russia and Italy might take Africa/Middle East, they can’t even match the Allies in income, let alone hope to keep what they have and somehow grab VCs in the Pacific.

come on. what planet are you living on? japan start with a huge fleet. If US have 10 bombers in turn 3, they have used the vast majority of all their IPC up until this point om bombers, leaving little for fleet and not nearly close enough to be a serious treath to a japan player unless he is a monkey. Backup your far out comments with just a small amount of arguements on how to achieve this or keep em to yourself until you can.

[atarihuana]

maybe the bad karma planet.

[Jennifer]

America alone can certainly defeat the Japanese fleet.

It just cannot be done in less than 5 rounds of game play.

[wodan46]

@Fighter:

come on. what planet are you living on? japan start with a huge fleet. If US have 10 bombers in turn 3, they have used the vast majority of all their IPC up until this point om bombers, leaving little for fleet and not nearly close enough to be a serious treath to a japan player unless he is a monkey. Backup your far out comments with just a small amount of arguements on how to achieve this or keep em to yourself until you can.

At the end of Turn 3, in the East Indies/Borneo/New Guinea/Sea Zone 39, there will be 3 Carrier Groups, 1 Battleship, 2 Destroyers, and 4 Transports.  There will also be 6 Bombers in East Asia, 4 in Australia, and 4 in West US.  Is that clear enough for you?