League General Discussion Thread

[ksmckay]

@majikforce

Is someone crying?

This discussion started with changing the rules and that is what it is about. The rules can only be changed at the beginning of the year and guess what that is now.

[axis-dominion]

I completely agree with trulpen and ksmckay on this one, we need to be real and make what really is the predominant variant be the default. Great arguments have already been made which I won’t repeat here. I for one will automatically resign my game in protest if any of my playoff opponents insists on OOB instead of BM3. And I won’t ever participate in this league again, until we are heard on this properly. This is not like the first or even second time we’ve been asking for this, after all, and man it’s such a simple and logical request.

Simple rule change: game variant played most in the league year shall determine the default for the playoffs. Done.

[axis-dominion]

@dawgoneit said in League General Discussion Thread:

@dawgoneit how can i get people to join the league that play oob and tell them that they wont be playing the game they no. 2 of them i play on saturdays wont join because of the changes. isn’t getting people to join so we can keep the site going anyways. should we do seperate leagues?

You are arguing a completely different point here. No one is stopping people from playing whatever they want in the league. We’re talking about playoffs only. Your friends can advertise exactly what they want and see if anyone is a go (including tech, dice or low luck, combat first, OOB, p2v, heck I bet they could play as revised in this league and gamer would be ok with it).

[OwenToo]

Maybe when someone signs up for the playoffs, they state which playoff they want to be in. And there can be three playoffs: OOB, BM3, and PTV

[trulpen]

@majikforce said in League General Discussion Thread:

Well for the 2020 playoffs the rules are set so no crying. You know what you are signing up for. Don’t like OOB then don’t sign up. For 2021 I think the discussion can be had to change the playoff rules. I will leave PTV out of it. Its too different of a game. As for leaving it as OOB I see the merits of that. BM3 is only a mod (not perfect but a really good one) that is used in this league. I can only speak from my experience but I found this league and site after playing the OOB BOARD GAME many times amongst friends. So I would venture to say anyone coming in new to the league would have OOB as their base of knowledge. You may alienate new people with requiring BM3. Even though BM3 is better in a lot of peoples opinions no one new has the chance to play it unless they join the league. I think only after playing OOB against high end opponents do you tend to see the imbalance of OOB. At least for me that was the case. Then slowly learning and playing BM3 do you really appreciate it. And then you can weigh the pros and cons of OOB vs BM3. But IMO limiting new people to the league is more of a detriment than complaining about having to play OOB. Just my two cents.

There is no exclusion from the league with BM3 as default version. In the basic period the choice of opponents are free, hence also choice of version.

This only becomes a problem during the playoffs, which will hardly be the defining factor for participating in the league.

I agree that the prospect of which version is default will impact some peoples incentive to participate. Especially if you’re a very competent player. This is however true for both options.

[trulpen]

@OwenToo said in League General Discussion Thread:

Maybe when someone signs up for the playoffs, they state which playoff they want to be in. And there can be three playoffs: OOB, BM3, and PTV

I think this is unfortunately the proper way to go.

[oysteilo]

@OwenToo said in League General Discussion Thread:

Maybe when someone signs up for the playoffs, they state which playoff they want to be in. And there can be three playoffs: OOB, BM3, and PTV

I think that is a good compromise. You may even sign up for more than one too!?

[trulpen]

@axis-dominion said in League General Discussion Thread:

I for one will automatically resign my game in protest if any of my playoff opponents insists on OOB instead of BM3.

Don’t say that. You have me as a snack in the first round… :grin:

[oysteilo]

right now we have 3 levels of playoffs so what harm does it do to have (potentially) one OOB bracket?

[axis-dominion]

First I think that’s disrespectful to say he is “crying” about it. There’s no need for that, he feels strongly about it as do many of us at the top tier. And it’s actually quite logical request, and not made for the first time mind you.

Second, it’s not as hard as you’re making it seem to transition an OOB player into BM3. The designers did a good job in ensuring it is mostly the same game but with some great enhancements. I recently introduced two of my friends in real life who were into OOB and thought it was balanced, but then I showed them the BM3 rule set and played a practice game with them, and that was that. Tanios is one of them, who picked up bm3 and enjoys it much.

@majikforce said in League General Discussion Thread:

Well for the 2020 playoffs the rules are set so no crying. You know what you are signing up for. Don’t like OOB then don’t sign up. For 2021 I think the discussion can be had to change the playoff rules. I will leave PTV out of it. Its too different of a game. As for leaving it as OOB I see the merits of that. BM3 is only a mod (not perfect but a really good one) that is used in this league. I can only speak from my experience but I found this league and site after playing the OOB BOARD GAME many times amongst friends. So I would venture to say anyone coming in new to the league would have OOB as their base of knowledge. You may alienate new people with requiring BM3. Even though BM3 is better in a lot of peoples opinions no one new has the chance to play it unless they join the league. I think only after playing OOB against high end opponents do you tend to see the imbalance of OOB. At least for me that was the case. Then slowly learning and playing BM3 do you really appreciate it. And then you can weigh the pros and cons of OOB vs BM3. But IMO limiting new people to the league is more of a detriment than complaining about having to play OOB. Just my two cents.

[ksmckay]

@oysteilo said in League General Discussion Thread:

right now we have 3 levels of playoffs so what harm does it do to have (potentially) one OOB bracket?

None. I think we have to do something like that with P2V gaining popularity and being so different from BM3 (and OOB) of course.

The trick is who gets to play in it? The league rankings are shared across all the games. So you could potentially have the top 8 signing up for all three which of course makes no sense. Or you could have it so you only sign up for 1. But I think thats a little off too because I think there is room to play multiple versions. I would like to play some P2V next year but I continue to enjoy BM3.

Separate rankings for everything would be a bit tedious but maybe? I don’t want to see different forums for different versions. That just isolates people and makes the community feel smaller.

But Id certainly be in favor of multiple tourneys. Perhaps there is the littlest bit of presige associated with league champion and that would be dulled or debated, but I think the best thing about the tournament is that it pits the best against the best in a best-of-one format.

[majikforce]

@axis-dominion To be fair I did not specifically call anyone out for crying. Maybe a better choice of words is to complain even when you know the rules going into it. Is OOB so bad that you could never possibly get a win? I doubt that very much. That being said I am for a change in 2021 to be like you said take the predominantly played version as the playoff default. Now this talk of you resigning your game if “insisting to play OOB” I think is bad form. You knew the rules signing up for 2020 and as stated the default is OOB so the potential is there for you to have to play OOB possibly. To resign in the middle of a playoff robs someone else of the chance to play in tier 1. You should bow out now if that is your intention.

[oysteilo]

I think:

• 1 combined ranking for all games, OOB, BM, PtV etc etc
• You sign up for playoff in OOB or BM or PtV or all. Your ranking above decides you seed in the bracket, simple as that
• Everyone gets to play their prefered game(s) in the playoffs

[OwenToo]

Brilliant! That could fly!

[dawgoneit]

@oysteilo i still think p2v shouldn’t be involved it hasn’t been around that long. i can agree that BM3 should be the default. p2v should be in a league by it self.

[OwenToo]

@dawgoneit Don’t need a default for playoffs… if you don’t want to be in the PTV tourney, don’t sign up for it

[oysteilo]

@OwenToo said in League General Discussion Thread:

Brilliant! That could fly!

you came up with it, you are brilliant!

[AndrewAAGamer]

I agree with a lot what both sides are saying in this discussion. A Player should not be forced into playing a version they do not want to play. That does not make anyone happy. At the same time we want to welcome new Players and OOB is the standard outside of this website.

For 2021 my suggestion would be to have separate Leagues or at least separate Playoffs. If you qualify for the Playoffs (8+ games) you can play in as many of the Playoff versions as you like. That way everyone gets to play the version they want to play, and no one has to play in a version they do not want to play in. If a version doesn’t get enough interest for a Playoff, then that Playoff version is canceled.

While P2V is a completely different game if there was enough call for a playoffs I see no reason to not include it unless there is a conviction that any Playoffs should only include Global 1940 (OOB or BM3) as P2V is frankly a completely different game; like Big World. In fact, you could have a Big World playoff too if enough people were interested in it. And how about AA50!!! That is one game I would play in League. But I digress.

As a new League Player here is my recent experience. I was playing in my Face to Face gaming group and we ONLY played OOB; well AA50 too, and D-Day and Guadalcanal. You get the picture. We had heard of this Balanced Mod thing but none of us played it. Due to COVID-19 we had to stop playing and I wanted to continue gaming and while I had for years used this site for information sources I had never played here. So, after doing some investigation, I was very pleased to read the League Rules and saw that Global G40 2nd Edition (aka OOB) was the default and based on that I joined and began playing.

I have had no problem finding OOB competitors so far. I can find people to play with at the E, 1 and 2 levels all the time. However, it came to my attention that a majority of the very top M players seem to not only play BM3 exclusively but avoided OOB like the plague, so I have not played against them. While I was disappointed in that it is fine if they feel that way and do not want to play OOB. But, to say if you want to play in the playoffs in the A Tier that you must play BM3 because they do is not fair. Just as it is unfair for them to have to play OOB when they do not want to and have not played a single game all year of it. Thus, why I suggest separate Playoffs.

We are going to lose newcomers if they are forced to play BM3. For those of you who are adamant about how great BM3 is and how OOB sucks, I know just as many people who feel the same about OOB being the best game and BM3 sucks; actually more. I would not have joined the League if BM3 was my only choice. At the same time, I do not want people who only play BM3 to not play in a Playoffs or be forced to play OOB if they do not ant to. Again at least two Playoffs for 2021 would be my recommendation.

[ksmckay]

@oysteilo said in League General Discussion Thread:

I think:

• 1 combined ranking for all games, OOB, BM, PtV etc etc
• You sign up for playoff in OOB or BM or PtV or all. Your ranking above decides you seed in the bracket, simple as that
• Everyone gets to play their prefered game(s) in the playoffs

So you would be ok with the top 8 signing up for all three? So now we have three playoff tournaments but only 8 people get to participate?

We already have an 8 game minimum for top playoff bracket. Maybe we could expand requirement to 8 total games, and then minimum 3 to sign up for the playoff.

So if you played 3 games P2V, 3 games OOB, and 3 games BM3 you could play in all three or if you played half p2V have BM3 you could sign up for those but not the OOB. So then to participate in the tourney you actually have had to play the given game in the league that year a few times.

[trulpen]

@AndrewAAGamer said in League General Discussion Thread:

For 2021 my suggestion would be to have separate Leagues or at least separate Playoffs. If you qualify for the Playoffs (8+ games) you can play in as many of the Playoff versions as you like. That way everyone gets to play the version they want to play, and no one has to play in a version they do not want to play in. If a version doesn’t get enough interest for a Playoff, then that Playoff version is canceled.

Fully agree with this. There is likely no need for separate leagues, unless there’s a wish to have a clear separation of rankings between the versions, but separate playoffs is very rational. And like previously stated we already have several playoffs already, so this should not be much of an administrative issue.