L20 #2 trulpen (X) vs aagamerz13 (A+17) BM3

[aagamerz13]

@trulpenplay sub doesnt stop from loading, only surface ship I think.

[trulpen]

Yes, it can be ignored, but if you attack it the sz is actively hostile and troops can’t be loaded. Hope I’m talking about the right thing now. Don’t have the map in front of me.

[aagamerz13]

@trulpen At the beginning of the Combat Move phase, you might
already have sea units (and air units on carriers) in spaces
containing enemy units that were there at the start of
your turn. For example, an enemy might have built new
surface warships in a sea zone where you have sea units.
When your turn comes around again, you are sharing that
sea zone with enemy forces.
14
Sea Movement Example: Sea units other than
submarines must end their movement when they enter
a hostile sea zone. The destroyer must stop in this zone.
However, the submarine can pass through safely because
the enemy unit isn’t a destroyer.
Amphibious Assault Example: Amphibious assault
movement occurs during the Combat Move phase. In
this example, the U.S. battleship must destroy the enemy
destroyer in the sea combat in order to clear the hostile
sea zone so that the transport can offload into Normandy/
Bordeaux. If there had been only defending submarines
and/or transports, the attacking U.S. player could have
ignored those units, or could have conducted sea combat.
If you are sharing a sea zone with surface warships (not
submarines and/or transports) belonging to a power with
which you are at war, this situation requires you to do one
of the following:

If enemy units other than transports or submarines occupy a sea
zone, the sea zone is hostile and your sea units end their movement and enter combat

[aagamerz13]

@aagamerz13 the sz does not change to hostile just because you choose to fight subs or transports there, unless the rules have changed

[aagamerz13]

@aagamerz13 Remember that hostile sea zones contain enemy units, but that for purposes
of determining the status of a sea zone, submarines and transports are ignored.

[aagamerz13]

@aagamerz13 these are from global europe rules

[trulpen]

Actually, if you conduct battle in the seazone, every naval unit there participates, even the tr’s. That’s what I’ve been told by the experts.

“Once these sea units have moved and/or participated in combat, they can’t move or participate in the Noncombat Move phase of the turn.”

I’ll check some FAQ and such to clarify.

Perhaps @gamerman01, @Adam514, @simon33 and/or @axis-dominion can help?

[aagamerz13]

@trulpen the move i want to do is load trans and attack hawaii, then use other ships the attack sub. I think that is a legal move. Is it?

[trulpen]

I don’t find a clear answer, but to my experience it’s only legal if you abstain from attacking the sub. We have to resolve this so there’s no doubt.

I’ll add @JDOW, @regularkid and @Krieghund to the list of potential helping hands.

[Krieghund]

It’s hard to piece together exactly what the question is here from the conversation, but I think the question is whether or not a transport can load in a sea zone containing an enemy sub and then move to another sea zone to make an amphibious assault if other units are attacking the sub. The answer to that question is “yes”. Attacking the sub does not make the sea zone hostile, so it does not impede the movement of the transport.

[trulpen]

Oh, my, then I’ve been deluded and played it wrong for a while. Good to correct.

@aagamerz13, since this seems to be the case I’d like to be able to put the sub elsewhere. Hope that’s ok.

[aagamerz13]

@trulpen yes edit it

[ksmckay]

@trulpen said in L20 #2 trulpen (X) vs aagamerz13 (A+17) BM3:

I don’t find a clear answer, but to my experience it’s only legal if you abstain from attacking the sub. We have to resolve this so there’s no doubt.

I’ll add @JDOW, @regularkid and @Krieghund to the list of potential helping hands.

The situation you are probably confusing this with is when you want to do a NCM with the transports. If you were interested in a NCM with the transports and you wanted them to leave the sea zone that is not legal as you cant load units into a transport during CM unless those units are being used in amphib assault. So in that case the transport can move during CM and the sub could be attacked but the transport couldnt load anything that turn. Or the transport could stay in the sea zone, be a participant in the CM and then not be used for NCM. Or you could ignore sub and conduct NCM with transport.

This is a case of CM with the transport so its a different situation as loading units onto the transport for combat during CM phase is legal.

[trulpen]

Yes, that sounds about right. It’s like the situation in the early game when Germany puts a sub or two in z101 and then the US enters into war. Then they can’t grab Brazil by NCM if they attack the sub(s).

Ok, issue resolved. Thanks!

[trulpen]

@aagamerz13 said in L20 #2 trulpen (X) vs aagamerz13 (A+17) BM3:

@trulpen yes edit it

Thanks!

I’ll put it in z15 then.

[trulpenplay]

TripleA Turn Summary: Japanese round 9

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 Balanced Mod3, version: 4.0.0

Game History

Round: 9

    Purchase Units - Japanese
        Japanese buy 2 artilleries, 1 carrier, 1 destroyer, 9 infantry, 1 submarine and 2 transports; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 6 SuicideAttackTokens; 

    Combat Move - Japanese
        1 infantry moved from Aleutian Islands to 8 Sea Zone
        1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 8 Sea Zone to 25 Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from 25 Sea Zone to Midway
        1 infantry moved from Japan to 6 Sea Zone
        1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 6 Sea Zone to 31 Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from 31 Sea Zone to Wake Island
        1 infantry moved from Japan to 6 Sea Zone
        1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 6 Sea Zone to 26 Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from 26 Sea Zone to Hawaiian Islands
        1 submarine moved from 45 Sea Zone to 46 Sea Zone
        2 fighters and 2 tactical_bombers moved from 45 Sea Zone to 46 Sea Zone
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 38 Sea Zone to 39 Sea Zone
        1 submarine moved from 38 Sea Zone to 39 Sea Zone
        2 bombers moved from Kweichow to 39 Sea Zone
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 45 Sea Zone to 46 Sea Zone
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 45 Sea Zone to 46 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from 45 Sea Zone to 46 Sea Zone

    Combat - Japanese
        Battle in Hawaiian Islands
        Battle in Midway
        Battle in Wake Island
        Battle in 46 Sea Zone
            Japanese attack with 5 fighters, 1 submarine and 4 tactical_bombers
            ANZAC defend with 1 cruiser
                Japanese roll dice for 1 submarine in 46 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0,33 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 5 fighters and 4 tactical_bombers in 46 Sea Zone, round 2 : 3/9 hits, 5,17 expected hits
                ANZAC roll dice for 1 cruiser in 46 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0,50 expected hits
                1 cruiser owned by the ANZAC and 1 submarine owned by the Japanese lost in 46 Sea Zone
            Japanese win, taking Hawaiian Islands from Americans, taking Midway from Americans, taking Wake Island from Americans with 5 fighters and 4 tactical_bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6
            Casualties for Japanese: 1 submarine
            Casualties for ANZAC: 1 cruiser
        Battle in 39 Sea Zone
            Japanese attack with 2 bombers, 1 fighter, 1 submarine and 1 tactical_bomber
            British defend with 1 destroyer
                Japanese roll dice for 1 submarine in 39 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0,33 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 2 bombers, 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber in 39 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/4 hits, 2,50 expected hits
                British roll dice for 1 destroyer in 39 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0,33 expected hits
                1 destroyer owned by the British lost in 39 Sea Zone
            Japanese win, taking 39 Sea Zone from UK_Pacific with 2 bombers, 1 fighter, 1 submarine and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 8
            Casualties for British: 1 destroyer

    Non Combat Move - Japanese
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 39 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
        2 bombers moved from 39 Sea Zone to Burma
        3 infantry moved from Shan State to Burma
        1 transport moved from 38 Sea Zone to 37 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from Malaya to 37 Sea Zone
        2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 37 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from Dutch New Guinea to 45 Sea Zone
        1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 45 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
        1 battleship, 6 carriers, 4 destroyers and 1 submarine moved from 45 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
        1 battleship and 1 marine moved from 45 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
        5 fighters and 4 tactical_bombers moved from 46 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Amur to 25 Sea Zone
        1 marine moved from Japan to 6 Sea Zone
        1 marine moved from Japan to 6 Sea Zone
        2 cruisers and 2 marines moved from 6 Sea Zone to 25 Sea Zone
        1 submarine moved from 1 Sea Zone to 10 Sea Zone
        1 carrier, 1 destroyer and 2 submarines moved from 8 Sea Zone to 25 Sea Zone
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 8 Sea Zone to 25 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from Japan to 6 Sea Zone
        2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 6 Sea Zone to 25 Sea Zone
        1 carrier and 1 submarine moved from 6 Sea Zone to 25 Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from Malaya to Shan State
        1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from Yunnan to Burma
        2 artilleries and 1 infantry moved from French Indo China to Yunnan
        1 infantry moved from Suiyuyan to Kansu
        1 infantry moved from Chahar to Suiyuyan
        1 infantry moved from Anhwe to Chahar
        1 infantry moved from Anhwe to Hopei
        1 infantry moved from Hopei to Shensi
        1 infantry moved from Kansu to Tsinghai
        1 infantry moved from Tsinghai to Sikang
        1 infantry moved from Sikang to Szechwan
        1 artillery moved from Szechwan to Yunnan
        1 artillery moved from Kweichow to Yunnan
        1 infantry moved from Anhwe to Kweichow
        1 mech_infantry moved from Shensi to Yunnan
        3 infantry moved from Shantung to Anhwe
        1 infantry moved from Sakha to Amur
        1 submarine moved from 38 Sea Zone to 78 Sea Zone
        1 carrier and 1 destroyer moved from 38 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 45 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from 25 Sea Zone to Midway

    Place Units - Japanese
        1 carrier, 1 destroyer, 1 submarine and 2 transports placed in 6 Sea Zone
        2 artilleries placed in Japan
        3 infantry placed in Shantung
        3 infantry placed in French Indo China
        3 infantry placed in Malaya

    Turn Complete - Japanese
        Japanese collect 72 PUs; end with 72 PUs
        Objective Japanese 6 Home Islands: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 75 PUs
        Objective Japanese 4 Control Dutch East Indies: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 80 PUs
        Objective Japanese 5 Pacific Airfields: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 85 PUs
        Objective Japanese 3 Control Honolulu Or Sydney Or Calcutta Or Western United States: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 90 PUs
        Turning on Edit Mode
        EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
        Turning on Edit Mode
        EDIT: Removing units owned by Japanese from 10 Sea Zone: 1 submarine
        EDIT: Adding units owned by Japanese to 15 Sea Zone: 1 submarine
        EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Japanese regular : -4,33
ANZAC regular : 0,50
British regular : -0,33

Savegame

[trulpen]

If you already have your turn underway you can of course make the edit as well, if it’s more convenient.

[simon33]

@trulpen said in L20 #2 trulpen (X) vs aagamerz13 (A+17) BM3:

Yes, it can be ignored, but if you attack it the sz is actively hostile and troops can’t be loaded. Hope I’m talking about the right thing now. Don’t have the map in front of me.

Just because it’s a combat zone doesn’t mean that you can’t load a transport. Only enemy surface warships prevent that.

[simon33]

Oh right, ksmckay already answered (correctly).

[trulpen]

Thanks anyway!