G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions)

[barnee]

We like people who playtest :)

[baron Münchhausen]

@mAIOR said in G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions):

I think an attack on ships should be preceeded by an AA defense equal to half the ship’s defense.

And I like the idea of TAC/NAV being allowed to chose target.

Another thing I thought of was to fix a scale for the units in game so we can have some more interesting OOB.

Any level of AA which is higher than up to @1 on aircraft, is going to create a lot of aircraft attrition. I saw this happened many times in various playtests. So, it implies to compensate for the accelerate losses of aircraft. Keeping 10-11-12 IPCs values is too high and was balanced for a game which was meant to shield aircraft casualties in many many ways.

As I wanted something like 1914 dogfight for Fighter while TcB being able to target enemy’s ground units (at least, but I’ve tried just 2 times with targeting warships too: need more playtests on that point ). I developed my own working house rule but on 1942.2. It works relatively well. But cannot say for G40 kind of scale.

Fighter are A2 D2 M4 Cost 7, always hit aircraft first if any present, as long as there is on the opposite side.
TcB are A3 D2 M4 Cost 8, pick any ground target as casualty upon a successful hit.

I hope you will see how this going in the direction you intend to implement.
The 1914 dogfight mechanic can somehow be working each combat round, as long as you have Fighter remaining on any side.

Just note that Tank A3 D3 C6 have better odds, so it happens very often when trying to take a needed TT, Fighters were sacrificed along the battle so to keep better odds and the opportunity to conquer the TT.

HTH, wish you luck to find the adequate numbers for your game.

[mAIOR]

@baron-Münchhausen Yeah… 1 Might be enough. It depends. It depends on the size of each individual unit. It might be better to give more AA dice to Battleships and carriers since these ships usually had quite a decent AAA complement.

Aircraft on the other hand (besides strat bombers) are too expensive imho. So it might be interesting to lower their prices.

Hmmmm…
Maybe fighter/Cas have a 2:2 value with no malus on air superioriry, TAC a 3:3 but 1 in air to air operations and Strat have no attack value but a defense of 2 in air operations (a box of B-17s was a tough nut to crack).

Yeah, I think I will playtest these changes as well. Writting a small piece of software so I can make this easy as possible.

Is there a kind of calculator like this already made? it would save me the trouble.

[General 6 Stars]

Just to let you know based on Fig being the same Defense value as a Inf in playing the Fig was to weak. But this is based on more Inf in a game or battles.
Now Baron has mentioned it works OK in 42 game. G40 maybe not.
As far as ship AA it should be no more than 1 but for not every ship based on barnee’s play testing.
For every Carrier ya give them AA @1 plane.

Not trying to deter any buddy’s play testing here . I’m just telling you based on my game what works and happens.
Yes my Battleships and Cruisers do get 2 shots each per round. I use d12. More room compared to d6.
Battleship C14 AD@8 + a roll of 1 gives them a AA hit on a plane too.
Cruiser C10 M3 AD@6 + a roll of 2 or less gives them a AA hit on a plane too.
So basically the big guns hitting ships while AA picks off a plane every now and then. This is for every round of combat. Now I believe barnee based on each getting a d6 AA @1 was to strong and he gave each ship a d12 dye roll for AA in triple A.
With d6 you would need to adjust this.

From playing there’s not as many planes killed by ships than you would think. But with Carriers getting a AD@4 against a plane only helps the fleets on defense more if you don’t bring carriers to attack also.

Of course all my planes cost 8. As Baron mentioned in his play tests and what happened in war a lot of planes where killed, crashed or lost.

Plus figs and tacs/dives can hit each other in each combat round with after first round of combat you can retreat as many planes as an Attacker or Defender.

Fig C8 AD@5 + if roll is a 2 or less get a plane kill too.
Tac C8 AD@6 pick target First round then AD@4 + if roll is a 1 get a plane kill too. Attacker or defenders choice.
Stg B. C8 A3 @3 one round only. D @2. DF@1

With Tacs and Dive Bombers getting a pick target is a awesome thing in games. Times you need to save a fig or the Tac Dive are scarificed.
Iv’e seen huge fleet battles with planes and only a few planes killed on each side with AA and DF per battle.
With Planes hitting planes on ground battles too this helps Russia some too but based on your setup of planes.
But still nice in any battle where a plane gets killed and you force the A or D to pick a plane. Idea here’s is to implement all scenarios of the battles. Some may disagree but its the middle ground across the board.
As mentioned not trying to deter anybody else’s play testing or suggestions. I only post ideas and outcomes based on game play and what and how Iv’e seen it work.
Other wise I had my say and I’ll butt out if you need me too.

This is just some ideas that you may want to try.
We been playing this way now for 2 years.

Yes with Baron and Barnee in the mix they can give you better imput based on there play of 42 or 40 game.

Oh by the way what is the 1914 plane plane and or ship rules you guys are talking about ?

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS-GEN
1914 rulebook p. 19:

Step 2. Determine Air Supremacy
If fighters are present on both sides, there must be an air battle to determine who has air supremacy. Each side rolls one die for each of his or her fighters. For each die roll of 2 or less, one enemy fighter is removed (after both players have rolled). Unlike the land battle itself, the air supremacy battle continues until one side has established air supremacy by eliminating all the enemy’s fighters. Additional rounds of fire are conducted until one or both sides have no fighters remaining.

If one side gains air supremacy either by being the only one with any fighters left, or was the only one to have any fighters at all, he or she gains air supremacy. The player with air supremacy immediately promotes all of his or her artillery to the box that reads “Artillery with Air Supremacy Support”. Air supremacy provides your side with a high altitude reconnaissance advantage… a bird’s eye view of the battlefield if you will.

In addition to gaining promoted artillery, the side with air supremacy also gets to roll for their remaining fighter(s) against the enemy’s land units in one of the next two steps.

---

1914 Fighter is A2 D2 M2 Cost 6, and plays the whole Dogfight phase, then goes to land combat.
In my 1942.2 houserule Fighter A2 D2 M4 Cost 7 targeting aircraft first, both phase are played simultaneously. And when one side gets air supremacy, the Fighter’s rolls are simply applied normally against enemy’s surviving land units.

[mAIOR]

@SS-GEN Thanks a lot for the info. I don’t want to use different dice than the D6 as one of my points with my mods is that it can be done by anyone (hence wanting to stay away from new sculpts).

I don’t mind fighters/CAS to be seen as worse than infantry. Frankly, they should be. They should be a force multiplier that can be called upon from further away and temporarily increase the fighting potential of the infantry. If you build more infantry and give the opponent air supremacy then you get punished.

But I am getting ahead of myself here ^^

For now I am going to focus on the Naval aspect. Finding fleets, new movement and convoy raiding, revised stats and costs and time to build.

[baron Münchhausen]

@mAIOR said in G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions):

@baron-Münchhausen Yeah… 1 Might be enough. It depends. It depends on the size of each individual unit. It might be better to give more AA dice to Battleships and carriers since these ships usually had quite a decent AAA complement.

Yeah, I think I will playtest these changes as well. Writting a small piece of software so I can make this easy as possible.

Is there a kind of calculator like this already made? it would save me the trouble.

What kind of calculator are you looking for? For which purpose?
In Triple A, once the unit combat values are set right, there is a working Battlecalculator.

Otherwise, to set a roster of combat units strength value based on attack/defense power compared to cost, there is a different Excel file.

You are right about how it depends on how we set the narrative about units interactions and “number of individuals” represented by a unique sculpt.

There is many different ways. Which can either be influenced by the tactical scale of combat (a single sortie of StB wings, for instance) or rather the strategic level of theatre of operations (a two to three months long of constant carpet bombing).

For instance, in Subwarfare developed around Destroyer A1 D1 M2 Cost 5 into Triple A Redesigned HR, Submarines always fire a Surprise strike each combat round even if a Destroyer is present.

One way to read this into a logical narrative is to figure it is up to a 3 months campaign and Subs are the best at taking a Surprise shot at any warships crossing their crossfire’s scope.

However, the Triple A mechanic was done so each TcB and DD gets 1 roll @1 prior to Subs surprise strike to act like active AntiSubmarine patrol both air and sea. If missed, means Subs has passed through the net. And only time DD get their opportunity to fire at them is after Subs revealed themselves through a Surprise attack of torpedos. However, if DD or TcB get a hit during this AS Patrol, it is like a AA gun. Subs are not able to roll at all. It is like they were caught off gard at surface and DD or TcB depth charge and sink them.

If you see where I’m going.

[barnee]

Update to 2.656

Fix damaged battleships not repairing.

[mAIOR]

@baron-Münchhausen said in G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions):

However, the Triple A mechanic was done so each TcB and DD gets 1 roll @1 prior to Subs surprise strike to act like active AntiSubmarine patrol both air and sea. If missed, means Subs has passed through the net. And only time DD get their opportunity to fire at them is after Subs revealed themselves through a Surprise attack of torpedos. However, if DD or TcB get a hit during this AS Patrol, it is like a AA gun. Subs are not able to roll at all. It is like they were caught off gard at surface and DD or TcB depth charge and sink them.

Yeah… My idea for my rework revolved around DD making an ASW check if subs decide to do a surprise attack. If successful, the submarines will be sunk.

This will tie in with a change to the convoy system as well. I like the convoy system in global but I think it doesn’t represent strategically what the opposing forces were doing.

I like the idea of having a “convoy” unit representing merchant fleets and have different nations having to contribute to build up that force or risk shortages. The UK had about 30 million tons of cargo capacity at war start and needed about 1/3rd of that capacity at sea to keep fighting at full capacity iirc (They needed around 30 million tons a year of imports so with 1/3rd of the fleet at sea we get about that yearly).

So I want to have the ability to spend money on convoys and escorts and the uboats reducing that amount with successful attacks. Kind of bringing a bit more of the strategic humpf to this boardgame.

I like DDs with a 2:2 value as I think it is fitting. Submarines are downgraded to 1:1 but they will also cost a lot less like 4 or even 3.
Their impact will also be more over time than immediate.

Sooo many things to try out…

[General 6 Stars]

I find the boxes work best in game without having to add merchant ships.
G40 map CB icons not far enough out in Atlantic. IMO and not enough Ger subs out there. Can damage inside box and 1 icp dam outside of box with sub touching box in another sz.

Do you plan on using the convoy box on g40 map only ? I do have another thing we had in game with cargo ships if u are interested in.
Each country starts with so many cargo ships. Then if u lost any and didn’t replace u were penalized a icp amount and ships moved 6.

[baron Münchhausen]

@mAIOR

Hi, IDK if you read all available threads on Convoy HR.

This one was a kind of spin-off of Redesigned (at one time), you may scroll and read to get a glimpse of questions, issues and options around creating a Convoy raiding mechanics.
My own HR on that topic was mainly developed for 1942.2 and AA50 Ed.
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/25268/convoy-disruption-for-1942-2-g40-submarine-economic-warfare/130

It worked quite well with Submarine as the only unit able to raid on these smaller scale map. G40 is rather a different beast.

HTH,
Baron

[baron Münchhausen]

@mAIOR said in G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions):

Yeah… My idea for my rework revolved around DD making an ASW check if subs decide to do a surprise attack. If successful, the submarines will be sunk.

So I want to have the ability to spend money on convoys and escorts and the uboats reducing that amount with successful attacks. Kind of bringing a bit more of the strategic humpf to this boardgame.

I like DDs with a 2:2 value as I think it is fitting. Submarines are downgraded to 1:1 but they will also cost a lot less like 4 or even 3.
Their impact will also be more over time than immediate.

Sooo many things to try out…

As a matter of fact, you are not downgrading Subs, it is quite the contrary. Going from A2 D1 Cost 6 to A1 D1 Cost 4, 1 hit. Is a blessing for them.

Reducing Submarine to low 4 or, even 3 IPCs, is a dangerous path to create unbalancing effects in Naval Combat. One issue you might encounter amongst power players which are looking for ways to win at all costs, is about the fodder unit. If any unit can be used for cheap fodder, no matter its combat capacity, you will use it as a shield around hard hitter. For instance, 5 Subs A1 D1 at 4 IPCs would provides 5 hits and 5 pips A/D for 20 IPCs. Compared to a single roll @4 for Battleship, with 2 hits. The real deal will be to purchase almost exclusively Subs around already existing units to protect them.

I’m not sure it would be the kind of Naval warfare you are looking for.

[mAIOR]

@baron-Münchhausen All ships will get prices adjusted. I just haven’t worked out other vessels yet. Submarines seem alright on a 3 or 4 cost. Their attrition is also higher. If they are found they will get sunk most often than not.

But you raised an interesting point. I need to probably lower their attack to zero. Submarines were mostly strategic weapons not operational and a submarine caught in the open by any military vessel was as good as sunk.

I didn’t read all threads on convoys no. These were ideas I came up with through playing and getting frustrated with the game. I find the convoy boxes that come with the maps really poor. In fact, they are in the worst possible place for subs as they are within air cover range which would make subs extremely vulnerable. As I said, I want to recreate the mid Atlantic gap and force the allies to deal with it or risk suffering moderate boxes (since escorted convoys would be a dangerous beast). I have begun designing some individual faction sheets with space for unit upgrades and I am adding a convoy box there. that way we can have some political decisions that happened in the period in a more abstracted way (convoy for bases).

@SS-GEN Do tell me more about cargo ships. That was my idea generally. Start with a bunch of counters that represent tonnage (UK fleet had about 30 million tons at war start) and my idea was that you needed at least 1/3rd of that in order not to suffer severe IC attrition and you need to spend IC to replenish it. So it mimicks the having to rebuild your merchant fleet to remain in the war and having the Americans have to provide for the slack for them to build merchant ships AFAP. This will mean that submarines will have a more strategic role. I was actually going to ignore the global convoy boxes as that would be the worst place to hunt for convoys as you would be under the air cover umbrella. You could intercept convoys anywhere in the North Atlantic provided you passed a check to find them and a check to evade escorts that can kill you). DDs as Hunter Killer groups would be another idea for extra ASW (basically abstracting carrier escorts).

EDIT: Oh, I haven’t thought about other versions… Funilly enough, I sold my Europe and Pacific copies a while ago (just wasn’t playing it and needed the space for other games) and still own my copy of 1942 which I hardly play because (and this is the same issue I have with global hence wanting to structure my house rules in a more concise fashion) it takes way too long for what it offers. I mean, for the time I can play a full A&A game (if I find people to play it with) I can do a game of Twilight Imperium or War of the Ring or Cataclysm…

The reason A&A pulls me back though… is that it has moments which are just brilliant and unique.

Like I remmember this 1942 game I played with some friends. I was the USA and I was focusing on Germany. And the Japanese player who was fumbling about the entire game makes this weird move where he moves an Aircraft carrier a cruiser and a couple of DDs with transports to Midway and I was left paralyzed.

I didn’t have enough strength to outright push him out and he was in striking range of continental US and I needed to deal with that but it was going to take me ages to mass a fleet where I needed it to counter it and of course I could just “waste” a build turn and just build a fleet from scratch to take him out but then the European theater would suffer and then Russia might really get into trouble but if I didn’t the Japanese player could probably reinforce the fleet and make it harder for me to boot him and I needed to reinforce the west coast anyway because he could strike with some half decent force but I also needed to keep pressure on Germany and, and and…

And that was one of the best gaming moments I ever had. It was borne out of complacency since the Japanese player was not very good and I was in a good position overall but it really felt “strategic” then.
So I don’t mind if my changes end up adding 2 more hours to a game as long as it keeps me hooked with more moments like this and it feels like there is more choice and player agency to it.

[General 6 Stars]

Well from your story that’s what I have in my game as far as so many things can happen. This is dec 41 setup for my game. Pic is Europe side in above post. This pic of Pacific. A ton of choices for japan to do turn 1.
Anyway I’ll post the cargo ship rules in a bit.
Also always feel a sub should get to pick target to but based on your idea they just gonna be cargo hunters in your game if they survive from being found. Fodder ya if C3-4 but if it doesn’t have no AD value in there then be useless with fleets I’m assuming here.

I’m trying to get a good g 40 map file and a 42 map file so maybe I can add some of these changes to game map.

I agree on convoys should be our mid Atlantic but Tac should be able to get to them subs too and not really figs unless u have a DD 1 to 1.
In my game if Tac misses sub then DD present gets depth shot. Sub lives it just dives. Subs can dive with DD present but this is another sub rule subject in another thread.

[mAIOR]

@SS-GEN That map is awesome. Where did you get it?

[General 6 Stars]

It was a buddy’s and now I just redid for my game with baron helping with some history and a few tweaks to it

Map on left what was his and map on right is what I just did

[mAIOR]

@SS-GEN That map is awesome!

Regarding subs:
Yeah, the idea is that they have no fleet use and are purely strategic weapons. If they can surprise fire at a battleship, they can. But if they get discovered in an ASW sweep, they are gone. I want attrition and for them to be cheap. I honestly tried the idea of naval searches being a thing and it works quite well. Since Britain’s initial fleet survives more often than not. This leads to Germany never being able to get off the back-foot naval wise unless a serious investment is made (and to be fair, this game starts far too late for a proper naval development cycle. We needed a game that would start at least in 1935 or 1936 for Germany to properly invest in a surface fleet but that of course brings other implications and this game is definitely not prepared for that yet).
I always wanted proper submarine and anti-submarine warfare in this game that would translate the strategic impact of the battle of the Atlantic. D-Day wouldn’t have happened if the German submarines weren’t pushed back and I would love to be able to represent that in this game… For now, I am happy if the battle for the Atlantic becomes one of the main focus for axis players instead of an afterthought.

EDIT: Regarding history, the Japanese did not use convoys. Hence the success of the American submarine campaign in the Pacific. The way I am thinking of implementing it is really to give a bonus in submarine warfare against the japanese.
Instead of finding convoys on a 3, it could be on a 4 or even a 5.

[baron Münchhausen]

@mAIOR
I see where you are going. Redesigned developed a Strategic bomber with no combat capacity at 5 IPCs, D6 damage and works quite well, based on various playtest. Tactical bomber replaced it as the actual combat unit, but with a lesser range 4+1 instead of 6+1 with Air Base.

It can be possible to imagine Subs A0 D0 Cost 5 or 4 with special damage on Convoy.
What can replace Subs? IJN Subs were not much assigned to sink civilian cargos. US Navy ships were prioritized by Subs, for their demise.
What kind of naval battle do you see in Atlantic? What will replace combat active units, traditionally U-boats were a major part in it?

[General 6 Stars]

Here’s the cargo ship stuff.
You may take this and make it anyway you need to fit your game or just don’t use.
Cost 4 icps per cargo ship. Moves 3 spaces. For each cargo ship you lose cost you 5% penalty towards your income.
Once every one is at war you can transport 1 plane, 1 tank or 2 Artillery per cargo ship.
Only Destroyers and Escorts can defend cargo ships. Only L. Bombers, figs, subs & warships can attack cargo ships.
OK this stuff above you can change to more historical or what ever to fit game. I like the 3 move. Gives more time to get attacked. Maybe 2 move better fits your map szs.
Convoy routes.
UK-Canada 3 cargo ships
UK-S AF 2
S. AF- Iran 2
India-Aust 1
Grande-Bretagne 1

S. France -French Guyana 1
S. France- French West Africa 1

Ger-Sweden 1
Ger- Norway 1

Murmank-UK 1
Archangel- UK 1

S. Italy- Libya 1

Japan -Marshall 1
Japan - Carolinas 1
Japan- Marianars 1
Japan- China ? 1 Figure out
Japan - Thailand 1
Japan - Korea 1

E. US - Brazil 1
E. US - S. AF 2
W. US - Australia 2

• E. US - Murmank/Archangel 3
• E US - UK 2
• = only when USSR is at war can you use theses.
  Country on left side of chart is the starting points.

I never checked 100% on accurate these are. If a destination point is captured can land in a territory next to it.
As mentioned you can change any thing here to fit your game. For routes you could lay down popsicle sticks colored to your countrys color and use chips. Sharpie ? Colored tape ?
All I know is I used Painted transports from classic game for each country. I liked the look of them even to today’s transports.

Anyway thats that.

Edit. Each country starts with a certain number of cargo ships. For each one below your limit is when 5% kicks in so if you start with 5 and at start of turn you only have 3 and don’t buy 2 more receive 10% penalty. When all at war u have 2 less ships to send pieces

[mAIOR]

@baron-Münchhausen said in G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions):

@mAIOR
I see where you are going. Redesigned developed a Strategic bomber with no combat capacity at 5 IPCs, D6 damage and works quite well, based on various playtest. Tactical bomber replaced it as the actual combat unit, but with a lesser range 4+1 instead of 6+1 with Air Base.

It can be possible to imagine Subs A0 D0 Cost 5 or 4 with special damage on Convoy.
What can replace Subs? IJN Subs were not much assigned to sink civilian cargos. US Navy ships were prioritized by Subs, for their demise.
What kind of naval battle do you see in Atlantic? What will replace combat active units, traditionally U-boats were a major part in it?

You can still take a surprise attack roll against surface vessels so if you want, you can risk your submarine to do that. Maybe an unescorted BB is spotted or a carrier unaware. Of course attacking a fleet with DDs or a hunter killer group might not be in your best interest but you can do that if you so chose. I am thinking of leaving doctrinal issues for the player including Japanese player choosing to begin using convoy system or target american convoys (maybe a political roll is in order… damn it… You made me think of yet another thing).

I see the battle of the Atlantic as being a tonnage war as it was in real life. German U-Boats were not really focused on targeting the Royal Navy. Again, if you spot a wild Battleship unescorted, go do your surprise attack and sink it

I am beginning to regret coming here XD I came here with a few simple ideas and now my test list is already 3 pages long…

Great ideas though and I see them as being in line with what I want for this game.

@SS-GEN Very interesting idea. I will try it out. Again, it seems to go in line with what I am thinking for the game. I was thinking in more abstract terms but this is very interesting as in no planned convoy routes and you just do a roll anywhere to see if you find convoys or not. Truth is, sea areas are so large that pretty much all areas in the game board would’ve seen convoys (coming from America, Coming from the med, etc).

One practical question:
I was looking to buy a physical copy of Global 1940 again since It is easier to play testing a physical board than it is on a PC screen. However, the Anniversary edition caught my eye. It seems to have most of what I need but it is cheaper and it comes in one box. Do you guys think Global is still worth it (for me the 1940 start date is more interesting but it is not a deal breaker)?