@Cmdr:
I don’t really see two dice as too powerful. AARe restored them to two dice after LHTR nerfed them.
For those of you unfamiliar with AARe (Enhanced), this change was made since there are counters to heavy bombers. For example, Jet power tech enables defending ftrs to intercept bombers. In Enhanced, for every move, there is a counter.
Two dice were needed to make HB’s powerful enough to actualy make a difference, especially in naval battles.
I do not like the rando tech rule in Classic. I like more the way tech improvemente are handled in Revised: you select what are looking for. There are the problem that you may “waste” IPC if not rolling the requested value.
I like it because during war a nation does not just research 1 special weapon at a time. There are multiple projects going on, so who is to say which one is going to hit gold first? The randomness of it is more real to life.
If I had my way the weapons development would be built into an event card system. I believe no one should have to invest ipcs into research because I think it should be assumed that the research is always going on and your ipcs are actually the army/navy/air force budget not the research budget. The event cards would be setup “slightly” to favor Germany and USA over Japan and Russia. Something like a 1/4 chance as compared to 1/5.
Craig’s right. The real power of Heavy Bombers is felt in SBRs. It’s just too easy in OOB Revised for the US to get them, then use them to pound Germany into the ground. However, since techs are going back to random acquirement in Anniversary, and there are other techs that can counter their SBR power, it shouldn’t be as much of a problem there.
Can you be more specific about how to counter cheaper bombers inflicting more damage than in any other version of A&A (IPC and production damage at the same time). Of all the speculation I have heard about the new game, this one bothers me the most.
SBRs don’t inflict IPC damage directly. They only damage the IC. This gives the victim the flexibility to spend only as much on IC repairs as is necessary to produce the number of units he/she can afford to build, or to not repair the IC at all if they don’t need to use it right away (or if it’s about to fall into enemy hands). If you capture an IC, you inherit any damage that may be on it, so you must repair it before you can use it.
Craig’s right. The real power of Heavy Bombers is felt in SBRs. It’s just too easy in OOB Revised for the US to get them, then use them to pound Germany into the ground. However, since techs are going back to random acquirement in Anniversary, and there are other techs that can counter their SBR power, it shouldn’t be as much of a problem there.
Can you be more specific about how to counter cheaper bombers inflicting more damage than in any other version of A&A (IPC and production damage at the same time). Of all the speculation I have heard about the new game, this one bothers me the most.
SBRs don’t inflict IPC damage directly. They only damage the IC. This gives the victim the flexibility to spend only as much on IC repairs as is necessary to produce the number of units he/she can afford to build, or to not repair the IC at all if they don’t need to use it right away (or if it’s about to fall into enemy hands). If you capture an IC, you inherit any damage that may be on it, so you must repair it before you can use it.
Yes, in theory they both don’t occur at the same time, but in practicallity, Germany will need to use it’s full IC capability MOST of the time (especially since Italy is now 1 IC). So that’s both in my eyes. Does Germany have more than 1 IC now? Where are they and what are their capabilities?
/axis_roll
Germany has only one IC, look at the board game geek pics! Krieghund’s point is only valid for Russia in that they can build in Karelia and Caucasus if Russia gets hit.
I’m beginning to wonder if the strong HBMB tech is a way to make techs more valuable and important in the game. If HBMB can be acquired, people will spend more money on tech and that maybe is what Larry wanted.
Now that I think about it, “Improved production” also makes Germany more resilient vs. bombers. If you have 10 as the prod limit, you can’t afford to lose many points, but if you have 12 you can afford 3-4 maybe. And you can build a new IC and use it to shelter your production, especially if it’s inland and protected by more AA-guns. Czech-Hungary has an IPC value of 2 I think, not worthwhile for an IC as it is, but if it’s prod limit is ‘4’ it could be a good thing. Any bombing run can be shot at twice if attacking Czech-Hungary, and it must be based in Norway or Libya to even reach it.
Ways for Germany to protect vs. BMB and esp. HBMB, in order of effectivity:
1. Radar, the best way, since it also protects against ordinary attacks and not just SBR, as well as vs. FTRs.
2. IC repair. Negates HBMB in SBR in halving the cost to repair.
3. Improved prod. (see above).
(4. Jet fighters? If they have an interceptor capability, and anyways they will be more rare since Germany probably won’t choose the Air/Naval tech chart that often. No-one knows how Jets will work in AA50 yet, unless Krieghund will enlighten us…)
I don’t see Industrial Complex as a possible purchase on that card. You may not be able to buy them. Which is sort of realistic anyway.
/IL
I’m pretty sure you can buy ICs in AA50. If you zoom in on the map on the BGG pic you can see this on the mobilization zone.
/axis_roll
I’m beginning to wonder if the strong HBMB tech is a way to make techs more valuable and important in the game. If HBMB can be acquired, people will spend more money on tech and that maybe is what Larry wanted.
I have to disagree. Tech was SO MUCH a part of the second edition, that it basically broke the game IMHO. A&A boiled down to a game of yahtzee then, get all 6’s and wallah! You win the game.
Now I know this tech system is better, but I still do not like the randomness of the tech.
Craig’s right. The real power of Heavy Bombers is felt in SBRs. It’s just too easy in OOB Revised for the US to get them, then use them to pound Germany into the ground. However, since techs are going back to random acquirement in Anniversary, and there are other techs that can counter their SBR power, it shouldn’t be as much of a problem there.
Can you be more specific about how to counter cheaper bombers inflicting more damage than in any other version of A&A (IPC and production damage at the same time). Of all the speculation I have heard about the new game, this one bothers me the most.
SBRs don’t inflict IPC damage directly. They only damage the IC. This gives the victim the flexibility to spend only as much on IC repairs as is necessary to produce the number of units he/she can afford to build, or to not repair the IC at all if they don’t need to use it right away (or if it’s about to fall into enemy hands). If you capture an IC, you inherit any damage that may be on it, so you must repair it before you can use it.
Yes, in theory they both don’t occur at the same time, but in practicallity, Germany will need to use it’s full IC capability MOST of the time (especially since Italy is now 1 IC). So that’s both in my eyes. Does Germany have more than 1 IC now? Where are they and what are their capabilities?
Even though Germany doesn’t benefit from multiple ICs, it can still benefit somewhat from optional damage repair. Here are some examples:
1. Germany has 35 IPCs, and the Allies bomb Germany, inflicting 20 damage points. Under the Revised system, Germany would just pay 20 IPCs and have 15 left to spend. Under the new system, Germany could spend 15 on repairs, then spend the other 20 on two tanks, one artillery and two infantry.
2. Germany has 35 IPCs, and the Allies bomb Germany for 10 damage points. Rather than having 25 IPCs to spend, Germany can elect to spend only six on repairs and buy five tanks and an artillery.
3. Germany has 35 IPCs, and the Allies bomb Germany for 3 damage points. Rather than having 32 IPCs to spend, Germany can elect to spend nothing on repairs and buy five tanks, an artillery and an infantry.
Obviously, this flexibility won’t always be useful, but sometimes it will, especially if you get the tech that allows you to repair the IC at half cost.
And yes, you can still buy ICs. Other than the damage rules, they work exactly the same way as they work in Revised.
@Flying:
I do not like the rando tech rule in Classic. I like more the way tech improvemente are handled in Revised: you select what are looking for. There are the problem that you may “waste” IPC if not rolling the requested value.
I like it because during war a nation does not just research 1 special weapon at a time. There are multiple projects going on, so who is to say which one is going to hit gold first? The randomness of it is more real to life.
If I had my way the weapons development would be built into an event card system. I believe no one should have to invest ipcs into research because I think it should be assumed that the research is always going on and your ipcs are actually the army/navy/air force budget not the research budget. The event cards would be setup “slightly” to favor Germany and USA over Japan and Russia. Something like a 1/4 chance as compared to 1/5.
I am presently working on an random event card system for A&A Classic, Revised, Pacific, and Europe. In a couple of cases, I have anticipated the techs in A&A50. Basically, you would cross-reference the card drawn from a deck of cards to an event chart. I am planning on marketing this as an expansion, so I am using the playing card deck to keep costs down, rather than having custom cards made. I will need to work up a chart for A&A50 until I have a board to work off of. I have posted a couple of samples on the harrisgamesdesign.com forum, under timerover51. The tech and production boosts will somewhat favor Germany, the US, and the UK over Japan, Russia, and now Italy for A&A 50.
Germany starts with 35, got bombed for 20 IPC, leaving a balance of 15 IPC…
Under the new system, Germany could spend 15 on repairs, then spend the other 20 on two tanks, one artillery and two infantry.
So essentially if you SBR for 10 IPC,leaving 25 IPC, Germany can repair say 5 of it and spend 30 IPC?
Using the same example: If Germany repairs for all ten, then they get 35 IPC to spend again? HUH?
That makes no sence. It should be you lost income from SBR and you spend IPC to rebuild the capacity of the territory, and GAIN the effects on the following turn. That way a constant SBR campaign can bring nations from bunkering.
@Imperious:
Germany starts with 35, got bombed for 20 IPC, leaving a balance of 15 IPC…
Under the new system, Germany could spend 15 on repairs, then spend the other 20 on two tanks, one artillery and two infantry.
So essentially if you SBR for 10 IPC,leaving 25 IPC, Germany can repair say 5 of it and spend 30 IPC?
No, you don’t SBR for IPCs, you SBR for damage points. The IPCs are spent to repair the damage. For each point of damage on the IC, one less unit may be produced there. IPCs spent on repair can’t be spent on production.
1. Germany has 35 IPCs, and the Allies bomb Germany, inflicting 20 damage points. Germany could spend 15 on repairs, then spend the balance of 20 on two tanks, one artillery and two infantry.
2. Germany has 35 IPCs, and the Allies bomb Germany, inflicting 10 damage points. Germany could spend 6 on repairs, then spend the balance of 29 on five tanks and an artillery.
3. Germany has 35 IPCs, and the Allies bomb Germany, inflicting 3 damage points. Germany spends nothing on repair, then spends the balance of 32 on five tanks, an artillery and an infantry.
1. Determine total IPC
2. Determine SBR loses
3. Decide what you want to spend on repair
(Note: repair is carried over from turn to turn that’s not repaired)
4. Value of what was spent on repair under #3 subtract from #1
(Note: if you don’t repair subtract total SBR damage from total)
5. Net value of what you can purchase that turn on units
Examples:
1. 35
2. 3
3. 3
4. 3-35
5. 32
1. 35
2. 3
3. 0
4. 3-35
5. 32
1. 35
2. 28
3. 28
4. 28-35
5. 7
1. 35
2. 28
3. 15
4. 15-35
5. 20
1. 35
2. 20
3. 15
4. 15-35
5. 20
1. 35
2. 10
3. 6
4. 6-35
5. 29
1. 40
2. 23
3. 17
4. 17-40
5. 13
1. 40
2. 23
3. 0
4. 23-40
5. 13
1. 40
2. 18
3. 15
4. 15-40
5. 20
1. 40
2. 38
3. 38
4. 38-40
5. 2
1. 40
2. 38
3. 38
4. 38-40
5. 2
Patterns in this:
So the pattern shows you are best off if you repair the most damage possible each turn because the effect would be felt on each turn it’s not repaired.
Second, Each nations SBR damage is limited to double its territories value where the factory is in, so its not a good idea to buy factories in high value territories, but spread them into lots of little value territories instead. Nations like USA and Russia can potentially get a big hurt by the fact that double their factories is over or nearly greater than the total IPC output, which makes then targets of massive campaigns of SBR. They can’t repair more than their total IPC production if you have reduced them (speaking about Russia mostly but UK is in range) enough they wont ever get to build anything.
Now you need to have lots of fighters in capital, to fight dogfights and get rid of escorts, making fighters the unit that grew in importance along with bombers. People will buy lots of fighters to protect factories.
Third, this means transports are even more valuable, because you’re buying fewer factories trying to avoid SBR
/axis_roll
I have to disagree. Tech was SO MUCH a part of the second edition, that it basically broke the game IMHO. A&A boiled down to a game of yahtzee then, get all 6’s and wallah! You win the game.
Now I know this tech system is better, but I still do not like the randomness of the tech.
Well, I thought of AAR, not the 2nd ed, and esp. the LHTR set of rules. There were two ways of doing it I guess: either make you able to choose a specific tech and make them less strong (LHTR) or make them cheaper, random and stronger (AA50). I think the choice is really good in a sense, because you will see a lot of techs in the game, but worry that HBMB is too strong.
@Imperious:
Patterns in this:
So the pattern shows you are best off if you repair the most damage possible each turn because the effect would be felt on each turn it’s not repaired.
So you observe that you ARE losing IPC’s each turn to repair, so the bombers are doing IPC and Production capability damage.
@Imperious:
Now you need to have lots of fighters in capital, to fight dogfights and get rid of escorts, making fighters the unit that grew in importance along with bombers. People will buy lots of fighters to protect factories.
There is intercept capability for fighters?
You know this for a fact?
Is this a tech or a standard ability for ftrs?
How does all of that work? This is what I want to know. Since SBRs are much deadlier with a cheaper bomber, there has to be a counter to this more viable <allied>bomber strategy.</allied>
@Imperious:
Patterns in this:
So the pattern shows you are best off if you repair the most damage possible each turn because the effect would be felt on each turn it’s not repaired.
That depends on the situation. The ability to not repair everything every turn lets you “spread out your payments” if you can, but it also makes it possible to get into a bad situation by getting into debt if you’re not careful. You should check your numbers in your examples, by the way. Some of them don’t add up.
@Imperious:
Second, Each nations SBR damage is limited to double its territories value where the factory is in, so its not a good idea to buy factories in high value territories, but spread them into lots of little value territories instead. Nations like USA and Russia can potentially get a big hurt by the fact that double their factories is over or nearly greater than the total IPC output, which makes then targets of massive campaigns of SBR. They can’t repair more than their total IPC production if you have reduced them (speaking about Russia mostly but UK is in range) enough they wont ever get to build anything.
This makes sense. Concentrated industry is easier to bomb.
@Imperious:
Now you need to have lots of fighters in capital, to fight dogfights and get rid of escorts, making fighters the unit that grew in importance along with bombers. People will buy lots of fighters to protect factories.
There are no fighter escorts in Anniversary.
@Imperious:
Patterns in this:
So the pattern shows you are best off if you repair the most damage possible each turn because the effect would be felt on each turn it’s not repaired.So you observe that you ARE losing IPC’s each turn to repair, so the bombers are doing IPC and Production capability damage.
I still don’t see this. The bombers are doing damage to production capacity - no IPCs are lost immediately. The IPCs repair that capacity. If you simply choose to repair all the damage every turn, in effect you’re doing the same thing that you’d be doing in Revised - losing IPCs directly to SBRs. Unless, of course, you don’t have enough IPCs to repair enough to get any production, in which case you’re pretty much screwed anyway.
How does all of that work? This is what I want to know. Since SBRs are much deadlier with a cheaper bomber, there has to be a counter to this more viable <allied>bomber strategy.</allied>
This is a question that can only be answered by playing the game.
@Imperious:
Patterns in this:
So the pattern shows you are best off if you repair the most damage possible each turn because the effect would be felt on each turn it’s not repaired.So you observe that you ARE losing IPC’s each turn to repair, so the bombers are doing IPC and Production capability damage.
I still don’t see this. The bombers are doing damage to production capacity - no IPCs are lost immediately. The IPCs repair that capacity. If you simply choose to repair all the damage every turn, in effect you’re doing the same thing that you’d be doing in Revised - losing IPCs directly to SBRs. Unless, of course, you don’t have enough IPCs to repair enough to get any production, in which case you’re pretty much screwed anyway.
Are you trying to maintain that SBRs are NOT more powerful in AA50?
Sure, you have this somewhat ‘delayed’ IPC loss, but is STILL a loss, and to top it off, you can bomb an IC into ‘negative’ capability, meaning you HAVE to buy back production capability. EVEN more powerful.
And USA starts with TWO bombers? And they only cost $13? Please tell me how Germany is supposed to stop an allied bombing campaign? Technology rolls are the only way?
This is starting to look ugly to me.
@Imperious:
Patterns in this:
So the pattern shows you are best off if you repair the most damage possible each turn because the effect would be felt on each turn it’s not repaired.So you observe that you ARE losing IPC’s each turn to repair, so the bombers are doing IPC and Production capability damage.
I still don’t see this. The bombers are doing damage to production capacity - no IPCs are lost immediately. The IPCs repair that capacity. If you simply choose to repair all the damage every turn, in effect you’re doing the same thing that you’d be doing in Revised - losing IPCs directly to SBRs. Unless, of course, you don’t have enough IPCs to repair enough to get any production, in which case you’re pretty much screwed anyway.
Are you trying to maintain that SBRs are NOT more powerful in AA50?
They are a bit more powerful than they are LHTR, but much less powerful than they are in OOB. In the OOB rules, SBRs against targets worth six IPCs or more are practically unlimited (Heavy Bombers being the exception).
Sure, you have this somewhat ‘delayed’ IPC loss, but is STILL a loss, and to top it off, you can bomb an IC into ‘negative’ capability, meaning you HAVE to buy back production capability. EVEN more powerful.
True, you have to buy back enough to get you into positive territory if you want to produce anything this turn. However, the cap on total IPC losses is no greater than it is in LHTR. In LHTR, the SBR losses in Germany are capped at 10 IPCs per Allied turn. In Anniversary, the IC damage is capped at 20 total. The only difference is that one Allied power can inflict all 20 damage points here, whereas in LHTR it would require two Allied powers acting in concert to get all 20 IPCs.
Either way, Germany’s not going to lose more than 20 IPCs per round to SBRs. And not requiring the IC to be fully repaired gives Germany the flexibility to spend its IPCs the way it wants to (to an extent), rather than simply have them taken away. If the IC isn’t fully repaired, there’s that much less damage that the Allies can inflict on the next round.
And USA starts with TWO bombers? And they only cost $13?
Actually, they cost 12 IPCs.
Please tell me how Germany is supposed to stop an allied bombing campaign? Technology rolls are the only way?
This is starting to look ugly to me.
Again, the only way to answer this is to play the game.
Please tell me how Germany is supposed to stop an allied bombing campaign? Technology rolls are the only way?
This is starting to look ugly to me.
Again, the only way to answer this is to play the game.
BOO!
I don’t like this answer. Sounds very ugly to me. There’s no specific way (besides tech) to stop the cheaper, better allied bombers in this game.
Back to how well you can roll ones to shoot down the cheap bombers, or get lucky achieving the right tech… it’s random that you’ll get the tech you need.
Nothing I have seen says otherwise.
I’m truly sorry you don’t like my answer, but it’s the only one I’m prepared to give at the present time. All I can say is that we can either trust that Larry and AH have created a balanced game, or we can hope that LHATR (or LH50TR :wink:) will be forthcoming. Until then, there’s always LHTR Revised.
