How to counter Dark Skies+J1 attack?

[Caesar-Seriona]

@Arthur:

Bids have moved to the 40 range in many League matches using standard G40 rules.  I definitely would not want to be Allies for less than 30. Against weaker Allied opponents I have done okay with spotting them a 100 bid.

Caesar: you have been playing too many weak Axis players!

It’s hard where I live. I don’t have a lot of players for AnA, and every single game I have played always have the Axis being pacifist until turn 4. I am the only Axis player that does a J1. I haven’t made my mind up yet on Germany or Italy.

On the other note, I don’t like the bid system anyways because you’re not restricted to how much money you request to add on the board and under the only bid I have ever seen tend to place units on weak spots that greatly break the Axis such as adding more destroyers for UK, adding more infantry to China, and in my case, adding artillery in USSR east.

[taamvan]

the bid works great, its just deciding whether you need to use it or not.    Our recent G40 games seem pretty balanced, but that’s a combination of factors (took a break, trying new things, adding new players).

having played this so many times, at this point the most interesting challenge is the vanilla Ger vs USSR can Russia survive.    There are still new dynamics to work out on the critical path, at least for me.

[simon33]

@Arthur:

Bids have moved to the 40 range in many League matches using standard G40 rules.  I definitely would not want to be Allies for less than 30. Against weaker Allied opponents I have done okay with spotting them a 100 bid.

Caesar: you have been playing too many weak Axis players!

How much do you reckon adopting the BM SBR rules would change the starting bid? I reckon it should go pretty close to halving it.

Footnote: Axis are looking good in the 2015 League Championship game for victory in the Pacific after a 40 bid for the Allies! Although J1 was extremely rough for the Allies.

[wheatbeer]

@simon33:

How much do you reckon adopting the BM SBR rules would change the starting bid? I reckon it should go pretty close to halving it.

I agree with you 100% on this. SBR against Moscow (or London) is downright impossible to counter if the Axis are dedicated to it. And sure the Allies can SBR, but the Axis have better counter-strategies available (defending potential SBR bases like Norway or Iwo Jima).

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

I don’t see that the Bal Mod changes to SBR is too much of a game-changer.  Both sides do bombing raids so the modifications work both ways.  Add in that most attacks against Moscow are happening on G4+, and it doesn’t have nearly as much impact as additional units to swing key battles during the first round.  An extra 20 PUs of bid results in an additional 20+ PU swing in net battle casualties, leading to a 40+ swing of units in key areas, leading to 60+ swing of units by the fifth turn.  A bombing raids just have a slight positive outcome when you throw in chance that the planes are shot down and that your units are out of position to do other actions for a round or two.

Personally I don’t do too many SBR as Germany because my goal is to head to the Middle East, avoiding a Moscow attack until G10+ in most games.  If the Allies are going heavy in the Atlantic, I spend 10 PUs per round to reinforce France with three ground units and another 7 PUs per round to reinforce Scandinavia with a couple of ground units.  That limits the ability to overwhelm the Eastern front.  I can patiently win the game with an economic victory by having the combined Japan+Germany income exceed that of the Allies.  The ability to project power with the bomber force makes the advantage enormous, especially in a TripleA match where I can battlecalc every option every round.  One mistake and an Allied force will get pulverized.

[wheatbeer]

@Arthur:

Both sides do bombing raids so the modifications work both ways.

It is far harder for the Allies to effectively SBR Germany or Japan. If the Allies have the resources and position to cripple a majorIC, then they’re probably already winning anyways. Allied SBR is mostly gravy.

@Arthur:

A bombing raids just have a slight positive outcome when you throw in chance that the planes are shot down and that your units are out of position to do other actions for a round or two.

Assuming average results, 6 runs will yield 1 lost bomber (-12) and 25 damage inflicted. That return on investment is pretty good, but it’s not the whole picture.

When you ultimately attack Moscow, every infantry that Russia couldn’t afford is another infantry who’s not inflicting casualties for every round of that battle (for arguments sake, lets say 3 rounds). If SBR results in just 8 fewer Russians, that might equal 24 shots in the battle (some of which will be hitting more expensive units than merely other infantry).

SBR can also allow Germany can capture Moscow earlier than it otherwise could, which can be priceless.

Don’t get me wrong, SBR is not required to win at all. I am just saying that if you choose to go that route, it can easily be a game-changer.

[taamvan]

as we’ve often discussed about Dark Skies and Bright Skies, the bomber is a game changer–not on the TUV economics.      Its the only way Axis can melt the economy of the Allies, if you add in taking all their land, blocking their NOs, and convoying them, its devastating because the UK and USSR econs are smaller than Germanys.

With the AB rule it just moves so far, and it’s so versatile.  So you blast Russia, then UK, then blast their fleet, even when you just bought 1-2 SBs per turn.

We are going to try BM/YG rules next game and at least as we’ve been playing recently, there are a lot more fighters intercepting/escorting than ever before.  More fighters surviving longer and on key AB zones, thinking itll be a game changer too.

[hcp]

@Arthur:

Add in that most attacks against Moscow are happening on G4+, and it doesn’t have nearly as much impact as additional units to swing key battles during the first round.  An extra 20 PUs of bid results in an additional 20+ PU swing in net battle casualties, leading to a 40+ swing of units in key areas, leading to 60+ swing of units by the fifth turn.

AB Harris: might I ask where are those first round key battle areas that the bid can offer such large PU swings?  I can only identify North Africa sub+Tank+2 art to have such large effect.

If I have 40 bid, where should I put the 20 additional bid (besides the above North Africa units) to counter patient Dark Skies + J1 attack?

[Caesar-Seriona]

@hcp:

@Arthur:

Add in that most attacks against Moscow are happening on G4+, and it doesn’t have nearly as much impact as additional units to swing key battles during the first round.  An extra 20 PUs of bid results in an additional 20+ PU swing in net battle casualties, leading to a 40+ swing of units in key areas, leading to 60+ swing of units by the fifth turn.

AB Harris: might I ask where are those first round key battle areas that the bid can offer such large PU swings?  I can only identify North Africa sub+Tank+2 art to have such large effect.

If I have 40 bid, where should I put the 20 additional bid to counter patient Dark Skies + J1 attack?

I think the only thing with the J1 would be giving the Red Army East an offensive ability against Japan by liberating Chinese territories forcing Japan to rely even more on transports and thus navy making them more able to be sunk by US. As for dark skies, I can’t see anything beyond more infantry and artillery unless the other solution is to give the Northern Red Army more offensive ability to get Finland and Norway which is 6 dollars of Spread of Communism on top of 5 dollars for both territory value.

[PainState]

As a guy who only plays table top games and does not play with bids…here is my final thought.

If the Allies can inflict pain and suffering on 50/50 battles. Do not shy away from them, take them all the time. The more CAS the Axis take on their land units the less amount of IPC the Axis can put into air power.

Allies need to “cup” check themselves and get on the offense early and often across the entire globe.

[simon33]

@Arthur:

I don’t see that the Bal Mod changes to SBR is too much of a game-changer.  Both sides do bombing raids so the modifications work both ways.  Add in that most attacks against Moscow are happening on G4+, and it doesn’t have nearly as much impact as additional units to swing key battles during the first round.  An extra 20 PUs of bid results in an additional 20+ PU swing in net battle casualties, leading to a 40+ swing of units in key areas, leading to 60+ swing of units by the fifth turn.  A bombing raids just have a slight positive outcome when you throw in chance that the planes are shot down and that your units are out of position to do other actions for a round or two.

Personally I don’t do too many SBR as Germany because my goal is to head to the Middle East, avoiding a Moscow attack until G10+ in most games.  If the Allies are going heavy in the Atlantic, I spend 10 PUs per round to reinforce France with three ground units and another 7 PUs per round to reinforce Scandinavia with a couple of ground units.  That limits the ability to overwhelm the Eastern front.  I can patiently win the game with an economic victory by having the combined Japan+Germany income exceed that of the Allies.  The ability to project power with the bomber force makes the advantage enormous, especially in a TripleA match where I can battlecalc every option every round.  One mistake and an Allied force will get pulverized.

I can’t say I like the part about not bombing Moscow. Surely the less infantry they can afford, the better for Germany.

OOB, if Germany attacks Moscow with 3 bombers and 2 escorts vs 5 potential interceptors, the air battle is a wash (ignoring the possibility of enough hits by the defender to take down a bomber). In BM, it’s enough to make the attack minimal expected value for Germany. There are also cases where the air battle can be underpowered but the SBR is still worthwhile in G40/OOB. That last case is relatively rare in BM.

[Caesar-Seriona]

@ShadowHAwk:

@Caesar:

@hcp:

@Arthur:

Add in that most attacks against Moscow are happening on G4+, and it doesn’t have nearly as much impact as additional units to swing key battles during the first round.  An extra 20 PUs of bid results in an additional 20+ PU swing in net battle casualties, leading to a 40+ swing of units in key areas, leading to 60+ swing of units by the fifth turn.

AB Harris: might I ask where are those first round key battle areas that the bid can offer such large PU swings?  I can only identify North Africa sub+Tank+2 art to have such large effect.

If I have 40 bid, where should I put the 20 additional bid to counter patient Dark Skies + J1 attack?

I think the only thing with the J1 would be giving the Red Army East an offensive ability against Japan by liberating Chinese territories forcing Japan to rely even more on transports and thus navy making them more able to be sunk by US. As for dark skies, I can’t see anything beyond more infantry and artillery unless the other solution is to give the Northern Red Army more offensive ability to get Finland and Norway which is 6 dollars of Spread of Communism on top of 5 dollars for both territory value.

How about add 1 mech to burma for india.

Against dark skies the allies just need a bit more fleet to call the bombers out. Attack and you trade your bombers dont attack and ill invade you.

The one mech is a good idea too as I would instantly use that to get over to Persia and bring them into the fight.

[hcp]

@Caesar:

@ShadowHAwk:

How about add 1 mech to burma for india.

Against dark skies the allies just need a bit more fleet to call the bombers out. Attack and you trade your bombers dont attack and ill invade you.

The one mech is a good idea too as I would instantly use that to get over to Persia and bring them into the fight.

Thanks  ShadowHAwk.  Mech is a good idea! 
Caesar: I am thinking one additional option that the Burma mech can do is to retake FIC from Japan in normal J1 attack (or attack Siam planes if there is no inf left in J1 Siam) .  Then we might delay the J2 MIC in FIC (or kill Japanese planes in Siam).

[Caesar-Seriona]

@hcp:

@Caesar:

@ShadowHAwk:

How about add 1 mech to burma for india.

Against dark skies the allies just need a bit more fleet to call the bombers out. Attack and you trade your bombers dont attack and ill invade you.

The one mech is a good idea too as I would instantly use that to get over to Persia and bring them into the fight.

Thanks  ShadowHAwk.  Mech is a good idea! 
Caesar: I am thinking one additional option that the Burma mech can do is to retake FIC from Japan in normal J1 attack (or attack Siam planes if there is no inf left in J1 Siam) .  Then we might delay the J2 MIC in FIC (or kill Japanese planes in Siam).

Usually in my games, Japan camps on FIC and factories it since it is can be used against India and China.

[simon33]

1 mech on Burma has to attack 2 inf on FIC. With 2 ftr+1tac in range, you’ll lose just under 1 plane on average. You’ll also have to accept those planes being put out of position though. They can’t get back to India. Ground troops on the Philippines would be in range, or the SZ35 TTs could pick up troops left on Kwangtung. Seem like a bit of suicide mission for your air force in the region.

Japan could also just attack Shan State with one of the inf.

[Zhukov44]

@simon33:

1 mech on Burma has to attack 2 inf on FIC. With 2 ftr+1tac in range, you’ll lose just under 1 plane on average. You’ll also have to accept those planes being put out of position though. They can’t get back to India. Ground troops on the Philippines would be in range, or the SZ35 TTs could pick up troops left on Kwangtung. Seem like a bit of suicide mission for your air force in the region.

Japan could also just attack Shan State with one of the inf.

Suppose Japan declared J1 and China countered Hunan (if necessary) and Yunnan.  So the idea is to destroy the last 2 inf on Fico and land the fighters on Yunnan or Burma.  If Japan takes Shan State J1, UK retakes it via Malaya and it’s less likely they need to sacrifice a plane to take Fico.  Meanwhile, UK uses the cruiser and the dd to counter and block 37.

[simon33]

UK attacks the 1 inf on FIC with planes only? If it can’t block Japan from building an IC there, is it really worthwhile?

[taamvan]

Before the J3, FiC w/factory is a take that requires careful placement and resources.  Maphead and Squid have repeatedly snaked or deterred this placement.

Our house games are getting very KJF so that inland factories are luxury feeds

[Auswanderersland]

@Gargantua:

Without reading through all the walls of text… I do find the solution to Dark Skies is to call it’s bluff; and dogpile in.

Too often multiple allied armies/navies on the board are afraid of being obliterated by the bomber stack at the same time.  Even though the bombers can only attack one force at a time;  what they “could” do; and living in fear of it, is what hampers the allies.

SO… the only response is to accept that fate, especially with america, and dogpile in.  Go to Gibrlatar,  go to places where you give them the option of attacking - with just bombers whenever possible; give them choices.  Attack Russia?  or Attack USA/UK fleet?  Once they start to spend the trump card, the whole house of cards usually falls apart.

It does suck because you will have some battles where you pay through the nose…  but sometimes its the only way.

do you have any games posted where you played allies where this was effective?

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Caesar:

@ShadowHAwk:

@Caesar:

@hcp:

@Arthur:

Add in that most attacks against Moscow are happening on G4+, and it doesn’t have nearly as much impact as additional units to swing key battles during the first round.  An extra 20 PUs of bid results in an additional 20+ PU swing in net battle casualties, leading to a 40+ swing of units in key areas, leading to 60+ swing of units by the fifth turn.

AB Harris: might I ask where are those first round key battle areas that the bid can offer such large PU swings?  I can only identify North Africa sub+Tank+2 art to have such large effect.

If I have 40 bid, where should I put the 20 additional bid to counter patient Dark Skies + J1 attack?

I think the only thing with the J1 would be giving the Red Army East an offensive ability against Japan by liberating Chinese territories forcing Japan to rely even more on transports and thus navy making them more able to be sunk by US. As for dark skies, I can’t see anything beyond more infantry and artillery unless the other solution is to give the Northern Red Army more offensive ability to get Finland and Norway which is 6 dollars of Spread of Communism on top of 5 dollars for both territory value.

How about add 1 mech to burma for india.

Against dark skies the allies just need a bit more fleet to call the bombers out. Attack and you trade your bombers dont attack and ill invade you.

The one mech is a good idea too as I would instantly use that to get over to Persia and bring them into the fight.

I don’t think you can use a mech to activate 2 pro-allied territories in a row.