Transport in hostile SZ

[Fiera]

Following scenery:
G1: Germany attacks Russian fleet at SZ115 and totally wipes it out. During non-combat Germany loads troops on the transport, moves to SZ115 and unloads to Finland.
R1: Russia builds a new ship at Novgorod and mobilizes it to SZ115

Version 1: Russian destroyer
During G2 German player has the following options with its transport:
a)  during “Combat Move” it can move to SZ114, load troops and do an Amphibious Assault on e.g. Novgorod
      (without bombardment, as they German fleet fights the Russian ship + eventual scramble)
b)  during “Combat Move”, move out of the SZ115 and end its turn in SZ114 or SZ113
      - it cannot load troops at e.g. Germany and unload to e.g. Norway as this would be a noncombat move
c)  stay at SZ115 together with the Cruiser and Battleship
      - it cannot, after a victory, load troops in “Noncombat move” from e.g. Baltic States and land in e.g. Finland

Version 2a: Russian submarine
During G2 German player has the following options with its transport:
a)  during “Combat Move” it can move to SZ114, load troops and do an Amphibious Assault on e.g. Novgorod
      (if they chose to ignore the sub, bombardment is possible if the Russian player does not chose to scramble)
b)  ignore the sub entirely during “Combat Move” and during “Noncombat move” move out of the SZ115 to e.g. SZ113 load troops at e.g. Germany and unload to e.g. Norway
c)  ignore the sub entirely during “Combat Move” and stay at SZ115 together with the Cruiser and Battleship, load troops in “Noncombat move” from e.g. Baltic States and land in e.g. Finland

Version 2b: submarine, but Germany has a destroyer instead of a cruiser
Can Germany still ignore the sub on 2b) and c)?

Correct me if there are any mistakes on the above statements!
Please also note that this is pure question about rules and has nothing to do with strategy. This scenery could also take place with other participants at e.g. SZ110, SZ97, …

[Bob77]

It would seem that you have a good handle on the rules to me.
All ships can ignore subs when moving. Subs cannot ignore destroyers when moving.

[taamvan]

attacking the Russian cruiser G1 is a rare and unusual move, as is the G1.  They’d need like 3-4 planes minimum, since you can scramble out.

On the other hand, if it lives, it can move to SZ 114, blocking the German combat move into Novogrod.  This is its most frustrating use.

If the germans never build a destroyer, then carriers and transports placed in SZ 113 are vulnerable to the sub, so this forces the germans to stick together.

And if you leave the sub on the harbor, when the cruiser is dead, they lose their bombards if they attack the sub, and they cant attack with a lone, unescorted transport.

[Gargantua]

I’d like some  further clarification on version 1 b)

-The German transport Can load from Germany; without a doubt.

Whether it can unload into Norway during combat or non-combat is a different question…

I’ve seen many games played with this is allowed;  or where players move units in the combat phase that would otherwise be non combat.  It’s not clear to me that this is specifically forbidden

One could make an argument that the transport and the infantry it picks up;  are a legitimate combat move;  because you were forced to move in the combat phase;  so as to escape from combat

[Gargantua]

@Gargantua:

I’d like some  further clarification on version 1 b)

-The German transport Can load from Germany; without a doubt.

Whether it can unload into Norway during combat or non-combat is a different question…

I’ve seen many games played with this is allowed;  or where players move units in the combat phase that would otherwise be non combat.  It’s not clear to me that this is specifically forbidden

One could make an argument that the transport and the infantry it picks up;  are a legitimate combat move;  because you were forced to move in the combat phase;  so as to escape from combat

I look forward to peer review of this item.  Might be a fun transport stall tactic to use once in a while  here! And I subconsciously  always wondered

[Bob77]

Garg…any unit moved in combat move phase, must conduct combat that turn. There are few exceptions, like moving from a hostile sea zone, but if the transport picks up units while doing this, the land units MUST attempt an amphibious landing during the combat round. If you need me to, i’ll give page reference in 16hrs.

[Colt45554]

@Gargantua:

I’d like some  further clarification on version 1 b)

-The German transport Can load from Germany; without a doubt.

Whether it can unload into Norway during combat or non-combat is a different question…

I’ve seen many games played with this is allowed;  or where players move units in the combat phase that would otherwise be non combat.  It’s not clear to me that this is specifically forbidden

One could make an argument that the transport and the infantry it picks up;  are a legitimate combat move;  because you were forced to move in the combat phase;  so as to escape from combat

looked at rulebook and seems pretty clear that it’s illegal but seems very odd. It’s a good enough question that somebody must have asked a rules deputy at some point in rules thread but gosh specific questions arent easy to find

[GeneralHandGrenade]

Like Colt I believe that it is an illegal move. Sometimes we don’t always play exactly by the rules and we let some things slide, like making a non-combat move during the combat movement phase. If you played by the letter of the law though, it would be illegal. As long as the transport didn’t pick up troops while in sz 115 (eg Finland), then it should be able to leave sz 115 and pick up troops somewhere else to do an amphibious assault anywhere it can reach. If it stayed in sz 115 while the combat was happening, then it couldn’t move on the non-combat movement phase to pick up troops to do a non-combat move because technically it was already in combat-even though it wasn’t in use during combat.

[calvinhobbesliker]

Can the transport escape to 114 in combat and transport troops internally in noncombat?

[GeneralHandGrenade]

Each unit can only move once. It could not move on combat and be used on non-combat.

[taamvan]

Excuse me if I’ve misunderstood the situation, but if Germany and Russia are at war at the start of G2, then the other rule about loading the turn that you declare war doesn’t apply here?

Transport in 115, its a hostile SZ–what can you do

Combat: Leave, Load, Return
Combat: Leave, Load, Attack somewhere else (just can’t do that with only 2 moves or to Norway since its already yours)
Noncombat:  Stick around and fight the battle with your ships–if you win, you can noncom out 2 spaces, load and drop at Norway during noncombat.

If the enemy plays units into a hostile sea zone, you can
attack with all  (if you win, TT can NCM out since it didn’t participate)
attack with none and leave with all (during combat!–this is the LEAVE THE SZ AND CONDUCT NO COMBAT BELOW so no NCM for the TT)
attack with some, and TT leave with the rest (but no NCM b/c of caveat)

you win with some, and the TT stayed with them, then noncom as you would with TT,
if you lose your transport is stranded in 115 as it did not participate but it also did not leave during combat per the below instructions
or retreat, you’re stuck in 114 and your move is over.  (Not sure how you can retreat, as the ships here “came” from 115, so there is no space from which the attacking units moved)

RULES:
Remain in the sea zone and conduct combat, (if you win, this is the only way to get to NCM also, the TT didn’t fight or participate in combat)
Leave the sea zone, load units if desired, and conduct combat elsewhere, (no noncom, you combatted)
Leave the sea zone, load units, and return to the same sea zone to conduct combat (you can’t load units while in a hostile
sea zone but if you attack Novo, your turn is over also), or

Leave the sea zone and conduct no combat. (BUT then no NCM based on this caveat)

So its a complex situation, that if you want the transport to be able to bridge, then you have to fight the ship in SZ 115, win, (but without using the TT for any reason) and then noncom out.    If they deploy on you, then you can also leave but not noncom.  PHEW!  Probably got it at least partially wrong.

Once these sea units have moved and/or participated in combat, they can’t move or participate in the Noncombat Move phase of the turn.

[Colt45554]

taam, that’s the same thing I was thinking after a while. I asked P@nther so maybe he will come along and clarify when he can.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

@taamvan:

RULES:
Remain in the sea zone and conduct combat, (if you win, this is the only way to get to NCM also, the TT didn’t fight or participate in combat)

I knew that this was incorrect so I went digging to find out where in the book it says so. On page 17 of the Pacific Rulebook, under the heading “Step 1. Sea Combat”, second paragraph it states;
If sea combat occurs, all attacking and defending sea and air units present must participate in the battle."

and on page 32 under the heading of Unit Characteristics it says;
Even though a transport can attack or defend….etc.

So what this means is that the attacker’s transports can’t just sit and watch the sea battle and then move afterwards to make a non-combat movement. It is part of the battle if it remains in the sea zone during combat. If it moves out during the combat movement phase then it could either do nothing or pick up units and make an amphibious assault. If the transport started it’s turn in a hostile sea zone, it couldn’t possibly make a non-combat move with or without cargo, nor could it act as a bridge on non-combat since it was involved in combat.

[Panther]

GHG has it correct… you can’t keep the transport out of the battle if you choose to follow the “Remain in the sea zone and conduct combat.” rule (leaving the transport with the other attacking ships).

[GeneralHandGrenade]

I smell a new “Know the Rules” video coming on.

[taamvan]

It only comes up when they deploy on top of you so its an unusual situation.  But if it comes up, the transports are limited–roger.

[Gargantua]

So guys,  Interesting responses regarding the transport - by the letter of the law you are correct.

But let me ask you another question:

Does everyone ANNOUNCE their amphibious assaults?  I can’t think of a single time in 1000 games I have ever heard someone officially do this.

Check this out

Europe Rulebook Page 14:
“During the Conduct Combat phase, you can launch only
amphibious assaults that you announced during this
phase.”

I mean, is moving the units into the territory you plan to attach a non-verbal “announcement”?  Or is there a dirty trick to be played out at the next tournament here?

For example: Put your phone on voice record - watch a guy plan his perfect J3 India crush; let him move all his attacks; wait for the combat phase, he starts rolling dice and doesn’t “Announce”.  He gets to india and it’s oh, excuse me sir, by the letter of the rulebook on Page 14 you didn’t announce the amphibious assault.  Those amphibious units won’t be arriving in India - guess your air force is burnt.

Per the letter of the rulebook that’s 100% legit.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

You’re thinking of some kind of formal announcement where someone rings a bell first, clears their throat, and then declares for all to hear in an English accent that they intend to do an amphibious assault in Gibraltar.

I always tell my opponent after all of my moves are made what my intentions are with all of my attacks and so do most other people that I have ever played. The reason you’re supposed to announce that one in particular is that you could sneakily say " no, I was just moving my boats there with those 12 dudes on them, I had no intention of landing them" after your other attacks had failed and it was no longer a good idea to land them. Yes, you should tell your opponent you’re landing troops so they have a chance to scramble or not.

[Gargantua]

The rule is reinforced again here:

Page #17
Amphibious Assaults
During this step you will resolve each amphibious assault
you announced during the Combat Move phase. If you
didn’t announce an amphibious assault, go to “General
Combat” on page 18.

Interesting thing… Page 18-20 is just a continuation of regular combat.  No announcement no Amphibious assault!

[Ichabod]

@GeneralHandGrenade:

You’re thinking of some kind of formal announcement where someone rings a bell first, clears their throat, and then declares for all to hear in an English accent that they intend to do an amphibious assault in Gibraltar.

If it’s in a strong Scottish dialect I might not understand it.