Can you save the Bismarck

[Young Grasshopper]

@NotEvenJail:

I think I lost something like 5 planes when I left the BB out and was never able to get to Moscow, hence I would likely never try it again but Japan was able to win on the Pacific side so it didn’t matter. Lucky me  :-D

Big D, is that you?… sounds a lot like our game when I was Japan and you were Germany  :-D

[simon33]

Following from wild bill, a 75% battle plus an 80% one are 60% to win both. Too tight with the consequences.

[WILD BILL]

@simon33:

Following from wild bill, a 75% battle plus an 80% one are 60% to win both. Too tight with the consequences.

Exactly, I wouldn’t do it either. Was just pointing out what I thought were the best odds w/o using the German BB G1 and hitting both sz’s. Like taamvan said it leaves too much to chance in the early rounds. Much more risk to the Luftwaffe then I would like for sure. With that said I don’t like to sacrifice the German BB either, that’s why often times I just strafe sz111 (not always though).

[simon33]

I strongly dislike the second sub into sz111. Isn’t it much better used in sz106?

[DrunkenCat]

Once I saw an airbase build in Holland Belgium on G1. It did it’s job in protecting the German battleship from UK1 attack, but rest of the game it was just sitting there. Staring awkardly.

[Young Grasshopper]

@DrunkenCat:

Once I saw an airbase build in Holland Belgium on G1. It did it’s job in protecting the German battleship from UK1 attack, but rest of the game it was just sitting there. Staring awkardly.

If it’s only purpose for 15 IPCs is to try and save the Bismarck, I would just spend an extra 5 IPCs for a new battleship instead.

[taamvan]

There is more you can do with that AB; enforce a block on the channel with as little as 1 DD that makes you very hard to move past and since you have the Normandy factory, you can add directly to a fleet-in-being in that square, protected by the planes.  Probably can’t maintain it after turn 4-5.  Its not a great place for the planes to be during a Russia-push game.

stretching it but;

Sb can reach 123
fighters and tb departing to attack SZ 91 don’t have to force-land in morocco.
scramble against Normandy landing
potentially leave the SZ hostile so UK transports cannot load or move during combat towards norway

I don’t think its worth the commitment of all that money early in the game.

[NotEvenJail]

@ShadowHAwk:

@simon33:

I strongly dislike the second sub into sz111. Isn’t it much better used in sz106?

Yes i normaly put it in SZ106 but i can go either way, so its a choice.
But also luring the RAF into combat taking it out does help a lot with italy making taranto 705 battle iso a 90% battle for the UK.

Exactly. People are saying holding the BB back is a reckless or even unsportsmanlike move. But I see players all the time doing the exact buys and strategies that they see in youtube videos. The only opening buy that I feel is standard is a J1 buy of a MIC and 2 TT. Everyone else is kind of free to do whatever (except China of course). So if in one game I decide to sack 4 subs and 5 planes (lucky rolls, sure) into the 110 and 111 battles (took one sub into 106 and lost), killing all the UK/French planes/boats, what do you think that does for Taranto? What does that imply for an Allied attempt at landing ground units in Europe? When we play so many games why not try something ballsy?

[simon33]

Way off topic but I don’t think I’ve ever done that buy J1. I don’t really understand why the SZ19 TT wouldn’t put a tank and inf on Kiangsu, so that the tank can reach Kwangtung or Kweichow J2.

[NotEvenJail]

@simon33:

Way off topic but I don’t think I’ve ever done that buy J1. I don’t really understand why the SZ19 TT wouldn’t put a tank and inf on Kiangsu, so that the tank can reach Kwangtung or Kweichow J2.

I’m very interested to hear more about your J1 buy because I feel like I’m in a minority that can take Calcutta early and threaten Sydney or Honolulu late (especially if the allies buy in the atlantic), with only 2 factories on the mainland in Asia…when I constantly see players with 3 and even 4 factories purchased for Japan throughout the game.

[Argothair]

I don’t mean to rain on anyone’s parade; if you thought of a cool new move or if you want to try something crazy once in a while, go for it! But “throw all my planes against all the British ships and see what happens” isn’t really original, and it’s extremely swingy. I wouldn’t enjoy playing against someone who did that every game. Would you want to play a game where instead of a $20 bid, you roll two twenty sided dice and take the total as your bid? You might get $35, or you might get $4. They’re both pretty unbalanced in a way that’s not fun for me, so I’d rather just take the safe $20. That’s just me, though – if you and your friends enjoy a swingier game, then rock out with your bad self.

[simon33]

@NotEvenJail:

@simon33:

Way off topic but I don’t think I’ve ever done that buy J1. I don’t really understand why the SZ19 TT wouldn’t put a tank and inf on Kiangsu, so that the tank can reach Kwangtung or Kweichow J2.

I’m very interested to hear more about your J1 buy because I feel like I’m in a minority that can take Calcutta early and threaten Sydney or Honolulu late (especially if the allies buy in the atlantic), with only 2 factories on the mainland in Asia…when I constantly see players with 3 and even 4 factories purchased for Japan throughout the game.

I’m still working on it to be honest. I’ve really only just discovered in Balanced Mod at least that you should bypass Chahar. I’m guessing you also do that.

With only 2 factories, the evacuating force from Calcutta combined with forces from the UK Mid East factories can normally retake Calcutta and usually even hold it. That’s my experience anyway.

If you have 3TTs in SZ6 for a J2 DOW, 2 go to the Philippines and one to Kwangtung, is that right? The advantage of moving the SZ19 TT to SZ36 is obviously that you can use it to step on one of the money islands. Is that more important than ferrying a few more units from Japan to the mainland? Perhaps it is.

[WILD BILL]

Yea, way off topic (sorry YG)……

A J1 3 tpt, or 2 tpt and ic are both pretty standard J1 buys IMO (even before bal mod). I have just recently discovered bal mod too, but it seems that you need a couple factories in Asia more so just to keep the flow of units going, otherwise you are forced to play wack-a-mole (setting the frame work J1 w/the first ic seems right to me). Doesn’t a J1 ic buy free up your tpts to take stuff, rather then ferrying units to Asia. I have been buying an inf, mech and tank for a couple Asian ic’s so i have a flow of inf going all the way to the Russian border for the occupation, so I have inf at the front w/faster units.

I like the fact that you need to keep those inner Chinese territories occupied to keep the little green men from popping up. I think a partisans rule for occupied Europe/Russia could also be interesting, but a very daunting task for the Euro axis. Could give Italy a new role, instead of can-opener they could just follow the Germans being the occupation power (freeing up German inf for the front).

[ABWorsham4]

The German Battleship is like a freshly cut vase of flowers; wonderful to look at but bound to die.

[Young Grasshopper]

@ABWorsham:

The German Battleship is like a freshly cut vase of flowers; wonderful to look at but bound to die.

Ya, and the argument for buying a new one on G2 has its fair share of critics.

[WILD BILL]

@Young:

@ABWorsham:

The German Battleship is like a freshly cut vase of flowers; wonderful to look at but bound to die.

Ya, and the argument for buying a new one on G2 has its fair share of critics.

Yea, but wouldn’t you be a little pissed if you brought home a nice bouquet, your wife looked at them and said “those are nice” and tossed them right away lol. The thing is I like to keep it around for as long as I can, maybe add other flowers to the arrangement making the allies look at how petty it is.

I don’t think I’ve ever replaced a sunk German BB on G2. I have lost the German BB G1, sometimes by design, or sometimes by a strafe that backfired.  I don’t think I would replace that 20 IPC unit though regardless. With that said I often buy a carrier G1 (or later) to accompany or replace the BB, and it is helpful even if I loose the BB in the first turn. A naval presence/carrier up there effects the game by protecting my transports, extending the reach of a couple ftrs, and applies some threat to the allied fleet (makes them spend more on surface war ships, less on tpts/men). If it delays them from making landings for just one round it’s worth it IMO.

[Ichabod]

I voted 20% of the time.

I’m of the opinion that it best to use the Bismarck in SZ 111 with the hope that you can retreat it to SZ 112 with a damaged UK battleship left behind. But, if the UK player bids a UK fighter to Scotland to threaten a 2 plane scramble, I then will usually use it in SZ 110. I still send 2 subs to SZ 106.

With semi-experienced to very experienced players, I think the Axis lose the game because Russia gets too powerful (so I usually buy air/ground) if Germany isn’t very careful about their Sea Lion execution. Therefore, keeping the Battleship for G2 is important because it supports a viable Sea Lion threat. Having said that, I wouldn’t purposely not use it in SZ 110 or SZ 111 just to keep it.

I think safely pulling off Sea Lion is one of the most satisfying things to do when playing Germany. In a FEW games I’ve managed to do that WHILE (the most critical aspect), properly managing Russia. I’m not of the opinion that an Axis player, playing against a good Allies player SHOULD insist on executing Sea Lion by starting naval investments on G1. (I’m not a very good player period, but I think I understand the basics of the game). However, if you’re of the opinion that you need to buy boats G1 no matter what, then if not doing Sea Lion (because the UK purchases a lot for London), I think they need to be used for something other than just shucking infantry/artillery to Leningrad like maybe hitting Gibraltar on G2. Then you’re presenting a different credible threat to the UK (going after Cairo) and in theory have a chance.

Maybe 25% of the time the German battleship gets to retreat to SZ112 leaving behind that wounded UK battleship. Then if having won at SZ 106 and then on UK1 1-2 less units are placed on London than the standard 6 inf / 1 fighter, Sea Lion becomes a possibility. That I think is largely because the Bismarck is there for a bombardments (and less stuff required to mitigate a scramble to SZ110). This is the game where the Bismarck “replaces” the need to buy purchase a carrier G1; and hopefully a G1 ground/air purchase convinced Russia to not buy 3-4 tanks R1. If doing Sea Lion, I would then buy a carrier the round I hit London.

[Fiera]

In my humble opinion the only way to save the Bismarck is by attacking SZ111 and retreat to SZ112 leaving behind a damaged UK battleship.
On the other hand if this gives the UK player the posibility to save his Prince of Wales, nothing is won.

Personally I would never give it away for free.
In one game I played UK and my oponent whiped out my SZ111 fleet by the aid of the Bismarck, but I also rolled some hits. Instead of taking a sub he took both hits on the battleship with the words, “it is lost anyway”.

[Fiera]

e.g. could it be moved to SZ109, paired with other surviving ships of the atlantic. It is not save there, that is for sure, but definately it is not an autokill for German Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe. And if you are planing on Operation Seelion, you also need your planes for Adlertag…

[Genghis Khan]

it’s tricky because if you don’t bring enough into 111, he scrambles and you lose too much. bring in too much and you lose your BB