German navy

[goldenbearflyer]

Next week is Greg’s Spring Gathering…  Cincy, Ohio

I would love to be there, but I’m in CA.  I’ll be in Cincy in July visiting family.

Remember that the USSR starts with several infantry in the east, which need time to walk to Moscow and then the front.

Germany has most of its troops already at the “new front” by holding EE and trading UKR/Belo/Karelia.

You dont need to be “ahead” in Ground units. You need to have “enough” to swap these territories and gain Africa.

As to Africa, if you destroy the allied transports, Africa SHOULD be yours for these first 4 rounds. The allies wont have any transports left to have landed in Africa.

Also, The point of the Navy is FLEXABILITY. You can merge. Get London. Nuke the allied fleet. Contest Norway. Or just defend and cause allied pain in the cost to sink you (which they have to do to open Germany/EE to amphib attacks).

It might happen that the fleet dies and you can only wait for Japan to save you. But with a UK fleet and focus vs Germany, there is NO UK IC in India. This usually results in a rapid Japan advance.

Moreover, Japan can swing a transport or 2 to Africa to speed its conquest if needed.

Squirecam, don’t get me wrong, I’m with you on the flexibility of the navy.  If the Allies make a mistake, yes, some of those cool options are there.  I am coming around to the idea that NOT building navy leads to a worse situation for Germany.

I know you are correct in what you say, because you must be having those results in actual play.  The disconnect for me is, I don’t know what types of numbers your Russian opponent is putting up against you.

As long as we agree that Germany is not ahead (although I say significantly behind) in ground units, I’m fine.  But what I’m saying is that if the G big stack is too small to take WRus, and Russia adds about half of its ground unit production to Moscow each turn, by the time the Japanese reach the outskirts of Moscow, the Russians have a big enough stack to hold off the Japanese.  In my experience.

As for Africa, perhaps Germany has had bad luck in several games, but I kid you not, I have seen UK take it back T1 and/or T2 several times, especially if Med fleet moves west!

And what is the UK Indian Ocean fleet doing all this time?  That’s the point, if Med fleet moves west and UK actually takes back Africa, UK can move into the Med T2 if it wants!  I saw it happen.

[squirecam]

Squirecam, don’t get me wrong, I’m with you on the flexibility of the navy.  If the Allies make a mistake, yes, some of those cool options are there.  I am coming around to the idea that NOT building navy leads to a worse situation for Germany.

I know you are correct in what you say, because you must be having those results in actual play.  The disconnect for me is, I don’t know what types of numbers your Russian opponent is putting up against you.

As long as we agree that Germany is not ahead (although I say significantly behind) in ground units, I’m fine.  But what I’m saying is that if the G big stack is too small to take WRus, and Russia adds about half of its ground unit production to Moscow each turn, by the time the Japanese reach the outskirts of Moscow, the Russians have a big enough stack to hold off the Japanese.  In my experience.

You are not going to take WR. That is not the point at least not for the first 3 rounds. Without blocking, UK is adding 8 units per turn into Norway/Africa. This is from UK 2, or at least by UK 3.

You are eliminating that 8 unit buildup. But not so much that WR should be taken. Your goal is to hold EE. Trade Karelia, belo, Ukr, and possibly Norway.

AFTER africa is yours, your income will be enough to crush the russians. Africa income is pretty important to the plan.

As for UK taking Africa back, UK has 6 units available. 3 India, 1 transj, 1 persia, 1 SA. Germany’s bid should allow Germany to conquer Egypt G1, and retake G2, which should only leave possibly 2 inf left. Remember that if India is abansoned, use the japanese to sail to Africa if needed. It doesnt matter WHO takes africa, just that it IS taken. As expediently as possible.

UK should not be able to move into the med given G1 and G2 control of Egypt.

Also, if G loses too many troops G1 (or russian attacks go bad), dont bother buying a fleet. Punish the russians with ground units.

Squirecam

[goldenbearflyer]

@squirecam:

You are not going to take WR. That is not the point at least not for the first 3 rounds. Without blocking, UK is adding 8 units per turn into Norway/Africa. This is from UK 2, or at least by UK 3.

You are eliminating that 8 unit buildup. But not so much that WR should be taken. Your goal is to hold EE. Trade Karelia, belo, Ukr, and possibly Norway.

AFTER africa is yours, your income will be enough to crush the russians. Africa income is pretty important to the plan.

As for UK taking Africa back, UK has 6 units available. 3 India, 1 transj, 1 persia, 1 SA. Germany’s bid should allow Germany to conquer Egypt G1, and retake G2, which should only leave possibly 2 inf left. Remember that if India is abansoned, use the japanese to sail to Africa if needed. It doesnt matter WHO takes africa, just that it IS taken. As expediently as possible.

UK should not be able to move into the med given G1 and G2 control of Egypt.

Also, if G loses too many troops G1 (or russian attacks go bad), dont bother buying a fleet. Punish the russians with ground units.

Squirecam

Well, don’t forget the UK ftr from the Indian Ocean can help attack Africa.  That is why I agree it’s important for part of the J navy to head west and try to eliminate the UK navy east of Africa.  So, yes, if that happens I can see that whole plan working.

Of G loses too many troops, don’t bother buying a fleet?  I thought we’re talking about a G1 naval buy, before you really know how it’s going, without regard to what Russia did R1?

[squirecam]

Of G loses too many troops, don’t bother buying a fleet?  I thought we’re talking about a G1 naval buy, before you really know how it’s going, without regard to what Russia did R1?

Example:

If USSR attacked UKR and lived with inf, art+tanks OR attacked UKR but whiffed and retreated,  dont bother with the fleet. USSR either needs immediate attention (former) or screwed the pooch and is ripe for the pickings (the latter).

Squirecam

[Wazzup]

I have never once used a battle sim.  (I guess I used to do algebra, calculus, and statistics in my head during high school, college)

All they do is give you something that should have happened but didn’t.  Damnit, that ace hit on the river and I am Phil Helmuth and can’t believe it.

Low Luck really takes the fun out of the game.  Everything is predictable, and blah blah blah.  “If luck weren’t invovled, I’d win every game.” -Phil Helmuth

The best predictor of outcomes?  Count your units, count his/her units.  If you have more, then you are doing ok.  However, if you are attacking, better hope at least 30-40% of your force are attackers.  I generally go with a bit more, but sometimes I have no choice.

German Navy can be evil.  However, in my normal KGF, it doesn’t bother me.

However, in KJF, German navy can be a challlenge.

[Imperious Leader]

Actually after playing this over and over again I have come to a new conclusion:  It appears that the best idea is to never leave the baltic… This is the only useful idea to come out of this plan of 1 CV and 3 AP on G1.

The idea is to keep the threat an active threat, which also requires the allies to build differently to defend against possible link up.

You can throw a scare into them anytime you take the medd fleet to western Medd ( must take Gibrater)

Additionally, you allways have this option open which forces the Brits to keep a sufficient garrison in England.

Lastly, you can shuck huge amounts of infantry and artillery to the Soviet Union getting to Moscow. That may be the compensation for no land buys on G1 for the eastern front.

This is after like 10 playtest sessions trying out different ideas and variations.

[Guest]

Congrats IL, you reached teh same conclussion I did several games ago…

Let the UK come to you, and stay out of range of the BB as long as possible.  This gives you several advantages:
1.  Forces the UK to take 2 rounds to get to Germany/Eastern… 1 to get through the navy, one to attack the land territory
2.  Gives you the best bag for your buck on your fleet since it is better on defense than on attack

[frood]

This is interesting, because I’m coming to the conclusion that the UK does best to just ignore the Baltic fleet too… unless there are 3 TRNs there.

[Guest]

Let me keep it Dan…

Added German security, added mobility… and the contant threat that i will come after your fleet anyway  :-)

[frood]

well eventually, perhaps round 3 or 4, but it’s not important. It’s not as if UK is any threat to invade Berlin before then anyway.

[Imperious Leader]

Its also much safer to just play defense than to take a huge risk with the fleet unification idea… Its only pertinent value is the threat turn after turn to come out, while Id rather be better off in the mean time shucking men to Moscow.

I hate this idea that Germany goes after UK first rather than the Soviets, so to keep the fleet in being i really am going after russia and threats on UK. Kinda of a 2 for 1 deal.

If the Allies try and tek me out they will suffer horrible loses which essentially does the a better job of exchanging the pieces then a german confrontation with UK directly.

[Guest]

And of course the las tmatter with the baltic Fleet…

So long as it lives, any threat by UK on Germany is a slow-motion threat that has to come via either Western, or from Karelia.  Slow motion threats allow Germany to moilize a LOT of force for defense and interdict the enemy as they advance.  Also, if Germany still has their AF and Baltic Fleet and UK tries to come in via Western, Germany can choose to take out the UK Fleet with the Baltic Fleet plus AF… IF UK has lost a lot of income so that fleet replacement would be a very slow process this can be devastating to the Allies and effectively removes 1 Ally from the game for several turns.

Remember, it is not just the Allies choosing KGF or KJF.  The Axis has probably chosen KRF, and so long as the Germans can block major quick developing threats from UK, then their focus can be much stronger on Russia.

[Axis4life]

When playing as Germany I have never really focused on a navy.  Like switch said the Baltic navy is a great blockade for UK.  However as UK if Germany doesn’t make any additions to the Baltic I am happy.

[Imperious Leader]

Yea Thats an important point Switch…

That Baltic fleet is like a get out of jail card in case the Moscow assault is in its closing stages… the German player has another trick to pull even if by Leaving the Baltic he will often lose more than he gained… but he exchanges that last tempo to finish off Moscow and keep the French landings away.

[Nix]

I have more and more swinged in Favor of Getting a nice German Navy the reasons are as follows. (if it´s a KGF of course)

1.UK/US assult on Western is Greatly slowed (if i build atleast 1 Naval unit/turn), it won´t happen untill Turn 6 atleast, 10+ if i kamikaze attack it with Fleet+AF.
2. Japan Has free reign in the East.
3. I can threathen UK, and transport Infs to the Russian front quickley.

And the best part is that Russia doesn´t have the strength to break germany alone, so germany sits tight in easter untill Japan marches on Moscow, then a 1-2 hit on Moscow and it´s all rosy…    :wink:

[zosima]

I always just aim to maintain witht he german navy.  simply rebuilding what is lost.  Until Russia is under control I think navy is a waste of  money.

[zosima]

@Imperious:

Its also much safer to just play defense than to take a huge risk with the fleet unification idea… Its only pertinent value is the threat turn after turn to come out, while Id rather be better off in the mean time shucking men to Moscow.

I hate this idea that Germany goes after UK first rather than the Soviets, so to keep the fleet in being i really am going after russia and threats on UK. Kinda of a 2 for 1 deal.

If the Allies try and tek me out they will suffer horrible loses which essentially does the a better job of exchanging the pieces then a german confrontation with UK directly.

fully agree in every way.

[Imperious Leader]

Thank you sir.

[newpaintbrush]

@Imperious:

Thank you sir.

may I have another?

[Guest]

As I mentioned in another thread…

My 1 AC, 1 TRN purchase on G1 placed in SZ14 has worked very nicely for me in my current game (UK is in the mid teens income).

Of course, the US went into the Pacific in force, so not a really valid test for its value in a full KGF…