AA50 Enhanced: Sub Rules

@Cmdr:

6)  Submarines may always chose to disengage from battle, but must make the choice BEFORE rolling their attack.

How the F*K can you ever kill a sub if can always choose to disengage from a battle?

@axis_roll:

@Cmdr:

6)  Submarines may always chose to disengage from battle, but must make the choice BEFORE rolling their attack.

How the F*K can you ever kill a sub if can always choose to disengage from a battle?

Because attacker always has the choice to retreat.  I’m not talking defending submarines, hence when I used the word attack.  Please read.  I think if you actually read what I typed, almost all of your perceived issues with what I say would dry up and disappear.

Here’s what I envision for submarines (in line with Enhanced Rules and Larry’s comments on Submarines.)

Submarines: Cost 6, Attack 2, Defend 1 (when forced to defend, may retreat instead.)

Submarines may EITHER attack OR engage in CRD as per AARe CRD rules.
Submarines MUST be detected by attacking destroyers OR they are given the option to engage or retreat/submerge (defender choice)
Submarines CANNOT attack other Submarines.  It’s unrealistic, it’s broken game play (negates the need for destroyers resulting in no destroyers being built) and it’s utterly stupid.

As per AA50 rules, submarines no longer make a sea zone hostile, which means you are free to load transports in them, unload transports from them, move any surface ship through them, and even bombard in support of amphibious assaults while in them.

Basically, submarines are exactly as intended in AA50 but are given CRD like in AARe.  No other abilities, no buffing, nothing.  If anything, submarines should be made weaker, possibly reducing their attack value to 1 and dropping their defense value to 0.  They are CRD units and can be brought in to sink undefended transports or very small fleets at best.  At worst, they should be a liability.

@Cmdr:

@axis_roll:

@Cmdr:

6)  Submarines may always chose to disengage from battle, but must make the choice BEFORE rolling their attack.

How the F*K can you ever kill a sub if can always choose to disengage from a battle?

Because attacker always has the choice to retreat.  I’m not talking defending submarines, hence when I used the word attack.  Please read.  I think if you actually read what I typed, almost all of your perceived issues with what I say would dry up and disappear.

You should make your posts clearer then.  Typical american:  I don’t have a problem, YOU have a problem.

Your initial post should have said

6)  ATTACKING Submarines may always chose to disengage from battle, but must make the choice BEFORE rolling their attack.

Just because you post long and often, doesn’t mean your posts are of high quality.  Typed messages are one of the worst ways to communicate since there is no <immediate>feedback.  Also, when someone has a question that was due to confusion / incomplete message, insulting the other person does not help the situation.

One more thing, your posts are your opinion.  You post and then expect your word to become fact.  When people reply with questions of your wisdom, you get into a posting war often restating your view over and over as if you were in a school yard shouting match:

“My team is better than yours!”

“No, our team is better”

“No way, our team is better!”

Sometimes you ‘win’ a discussion because potential posters tire of reposting their own opinions only to be yelled at again that the other team is better.</immediate>

@Cmdr:

Here’s what I envision for submarines (in line with Enhanced Rules and Larry’s comments on Submarines.)

Submarines: Cost 6, Attack 2, Defend 1 (when forced to defend, may retreat instead.)

Can you elaborate on this .  What constitutes “defending”?  If detected (the only time they can be attacked)?

@Cmdr:

Submarines may EITHER attack OR engage in CRD as per AARe CRD rules.
Submarines MUST be detected by attacking destroyers OR they are given the option to engage or retreat/submerge (defender choice)

Basically, submarines are exactly as intended in AA50 but are given CRD like in AARe.

So sub detection and CRD are the same as AARe?
You do not believe the reduced cost of a sub ($6) should alter this?

I think this might play out OK in the pacific, but does it encourage sub investment enough in the Atlantic to make Germany buy some?

With a defense of only 1, subs are going to be easily killed/hunted at a low cost to the allies.  In other words, I don’t see a huge incentive for Germany to buy subs until I get some game play testing in.

@Cmdr:

At worst, they should be a liability.

LOL… yes let’s buy some pieces that hurt us.

where does that statement come from?  You’re goofy

I used the word attack, you missed it, not my problem if you don’t read carefully.  But we can drop it, I think you’re learning to read through and ask questions when something doesn’t make sense instead of assuming you’re dealing with ID10T errors.

What I mean when I say “forced to defend” is when they are detected.  A detected submarine has lost the option to submerge and therefore must defend itself.

I would like to make it so they can submerge later if the destroyers fail to find them in subsequent rounds.  This would represent the captain of the boat (it’s a boat, not a ship) diving and going silent to avoid detection.

No, I do not believe that the submarine costing 5 or 6 IPC (tech depending) should alter their CRD rates or how hard it is for a destroyer to detect them.

It’s this reduced cost that would encourage Germany to put some in the water, it might even encourage Italy to put some in the water (hint hint!).  If we raised the price, it would only discourage their use more.

I don’t see them being killed easily nor economically for the allies.  First, they only cost 6!  That’s less than in revised (25% cost reduction from revised) and the allies have to build destroyers to come get them.  If the submarines are in a group, they may not all be sunk in the first round (assuming they are detected) and may not be detected next round.  If they are not, then they may submerge and trap the allied fleet in that sea zone where they can resurface and attack at 2.

Submarines would become a liability in circumstances where you, the player, screwed up and got too many.  The idea is you’d have 125% as many submarines as you think you’ll need to inflict maximum damage on the enemy, no more, no less.  The rest of your naval assets would be diverted into destroyers (which now cost the same as a submarine used too) and cruisers, carriers and battleships.

I do say 125% because you’ll have to assume the enemy will detect some of your submarines and come sink them.  It’ll probably cost your opponent 8 IPC for a destroyer (I’ll assume it is sunk either in the attack or in the defense) but it’ll also force you to replace the submarine if you go this route.

If you do buy 125% and the enemy ignores you, then you have a 25% liability.  Those units aren’t good for attacking anything, they couldn’t defend themselves from a mosquito attack, and they can’t inflict IPC damage.  The unit is now a liability.

oh my god just do this:

Germany can perform convoy raid attacks against USA and UK
USA can perform convoy raid attacks against Japan
UK can perform Convoy raid attacks on Italy but only from the Mediterranean.

Submarines:
Attacking Submarines can only engage enemy transports (with or without naval escort) or perform convoy raids on enemy sea zones designated as such. If they elect to attack transports perform the following sequence:

1. Subs each roll at 2 or less to hit. Transports are removed for each hit. Additional hits can go against other ships
   (the defender decides), but only after transports are all hit.
2. ASW units (Destroyers and Cruisers) then each return fire hitting at one. Remove subs.
3. Subs may elect to submerge or continue attack at the end of the round. If they submerge combat is over.

Note: If attacking ASW capable units ( cruisers and Destroyers) decide to engage the subs on their own turn follows the same procedure except ASW units are allocated as hits first rather than any transports.

Special Rules:
• If the active player has Super Subs Technology his subs attack at 3 or less.
• If the player has ASW Technology, then planes can now be involved and roll for ASW as long as a ASW naval unit is present (at a 1:1 basis). Also, all ASW units now roll at 2 or less to score a hit.
• Both Destroyers and Cruisers negate a submarines first strike, but at a 1:1 basis. Excess Subs over ASW still get preemptive fire. This goes for attack or defense.
• Planes cannot fire at submarines unless they gain ASW technology. Submarine hits can never be allocated against air units and subs cannot fight each other.

Submarines no longer block movement of surface naval units, except for transports. Submarines can never be involved in attacking fleets unless a transport is present. They are now strategic weapons to attack income and transports as the active player chooses. If the active player chooses to only perform a convoy raid thats fine, but if he chooses to go after the convoy transports he will face return fire for at least one round. So remember he can choose no combat, attack the nations income, or attack the transports directly. That’s to say they now perform as totally independent forms of naval combat. Once the surface naval combat is resolved, further combat with submarines can occur.

Wolf pack rule: 2+ German subs attacking together gain a +1 attack modifier on convoy raid attacks. This modifier lasts until the Allied player under attack develops ASW technology. This is a standard rule.

German Submarines cost 5 IPC.

Convoy Raid Attack: Each warship or plane in range can elect to attack a nation in addition to other attacks in the same sea zone if other ships are also present (subs can only attack transports in this manner with or without ASW units defending).

Procedure: move warship or plane in sea zone with convoy box roll and d6
1-2= 1 IPC lost
3-4= 2 IPC lost
5-6= 3 IPC lost

Following the Convoy Raid each submarine has the option to attack enemy transports located in the sea zone.

some of this may not apply in your case because some of the original ideas are not realistic and are based on balance only so it will need to be a bit altered, but still a good starting position.

Seems overly complicated, but it’s also before I’ve had my first cup of coffee.

Just a questions, are you saying that Japanese submarines would have to sail around S. America and up to SZ 10 before doing CRD to America?

I think, IMHO, if that is what you are saying, that we should leave CRD open to all ICs adjacent to the sea.  It was not that complicated before.

Likewise, only submarines not forced to submerge should be able to do CRD damage.

(2) already increased submarine survivability a lot (compared to AA50)
do we really need (3)?

anyway (3) is still quite complex
especially the modified combat value bit
I think the fact that only DD and air can hit stealth mode submarines is doing something already

you could be more gradual with the first version of AA50e?

Jenny’s Super Simple Submarine Rules for Enhanced Anniversary:

1)  Submarines cost 5 IPC with or without improved shipyards.
2)  Submarines attack at a 3, defend at a 0
3)  Submarines can only hit surface ships (Transports, Destroyers, Cruisers, Battleships and Aircraft Carriers)
4)  Destroyers, Jet Fighters and Heavy Bombers can detect submarines.  The attacker rolls 1 Die, the defender rolls 1 Die, after bonuses and penalties are taken into account, whoever has the lowest number wins (if the defender wins, the submarines have submerged before the attacker can return to kill them.)  Bonuses and penalties are from technologies, of course.
5)  Any surfaced Submarine adjacent to any of your industrial complexes at the end of your turn does 1 IPC CRD. 
6)  Germany, Italy and Russia are immune to CRD attacks (China is also immune in the off chance England buys a Complex for Kwangtung and then England falls followed by China liberating Kwangtung…it COULD happen, but I doubt it ever will!)

Let me clarify my reasoning on point number 2:

Submarines defend at a zero because they are not firing back, they are battening the hatches, flooding the ballast tanks and adjusting the dive planes hoping to get below depth charge depth before being sunk. (Which is silly, I guess you should say destroyed not sunk, since they sink on purpose…)

Meanwhile, they attack at three because they quietly slip into range, hide in the waves, line up their shot just right and fire.  Since there is resistance to giving them called shot abilities (where they tell us who they aim for before firing, like Kaitens and Kamikazees did in AARe) I figure this is a solution that would work.

Also, it should be mentioned that I am assuming Super Submarines has been changed to Super Destroyers which would increase Destroyer Attack Power = to Submarine Power.

Submarines do not defend with a surface fleet, they travel solo usually way out ahead as scouts or raiding enemy shipping.  Treat them like transports if they are detected and defenseless.