AA50 Enhanced: Sub Rules

[tekkyy]

yeah I guess 1:1 could have issues with US overpowering Japan in Pacific
but this ratio is tuneable

2. WHENEVER a SUB is due to roll (either in attack or defence), it ALWAYS has the option to submerge instead

this is great too
especially under AA50’s submarine model of 1 defense

simple and addresses the issue of submarine survivability directly
I think the godly unlimited cancelling of Submersible ability is the important one, the cancelling of Surprise Strick ability is not a big problem

3. Special Convoy Interdiction Attack

for distinction I wish its not called Convoy

it sucks how transports can walk over submarines in AA50
hopefully this rule can be simplified and more palatable
the more complex the rule, the harder it is to balance

4. Special Deep Dive Defence

any complexity propagates throughout the game such as increased complexity of Tech
so I am not sure about this one

[axis_roll]

@cousin_joe:

1. Convoy Raid Damage as in Enhanced
-submerged subs now count, only capital ICs though (+WUS) - streamlining the rules

I like this

@cousin_joe:

2. WHENEVER a SUB is due to roll (either in attack or defence), it ALWAYS has the option to submerge instead
-note the word ALWAYS.  What this means is, is that at most, a SUB would only have to endure 1 round of opposing rolls (Currently, they are forced to stay surfaced every round as long as an opposing DD is in play)
-DDs still delay the SUBs roll til later in the round, however, the SUBs can submerge even if the DD is present (just not immediately at the start of combat)
-This will significantly increase SUB survival

How about?
2. WHENEVER a SUB is due to roll (either in attack or defence), at the end of each round of battle, it ALWAYS has the option to submerge instead

@cousin_joe:

3. Special Convoy Interdiction Attack
-This is a special economic attack whereby SUBs can strike specifically at TRNs even if they are in a fleet
-Attacking Force must consist only of SUBs
-Defending Force must have at least one TRN
-Defending Force rolls for a Sub Screen:
–-Each Defending DD rolls 1d@2, Each Defending FTR rolls 1d@1
—Every Hit results in a SUB being Destroyed
—All Surviving SUBs roll 1d@3
—Every Hit results in a TRN being Destroyed
I am debating limiting this to Max 2 SUBs/TURN

I am abiviliant to this option at this point.

@cousin_joe:

4. Special Deep Dive Defence
-Whenever a Defending Force consists only of SUBs (ie. no other surface vessels), the SUBs are considered to be in Deep Dive mode
-In Deep Dive mode, SUBs are only vulnerable to DDs, and Aircraft at a reduced attack
-Defending Force must consist only of SUBs
-Attacking Force must have at least one DD
-Attacking Force rolls for a Sub Sweep:
–-Each Attacking DD rolls 1d@2, Each attacking FTR or BMBR rolls 1d@1
—Every Hit results in a SUB being Destroyed
—Each Surviving SUB has the option to submerge, or roll 1d@1
—If the SUBs do not submerge, and the Atacking DD survives, the SUBs must undergo another round of attacks
This would greatly increase SUB survivability as CAs,ACs, and BBs do not get to roll in attack, and Aircraft is rolling at a reduced rate.  In the Pacific, where there are a lot of FTRs anyway, it would help create that happy medium we are looking for

This could be workable

@cousin_joe:

5. Techs
Super Sub Tech would decrease Detroyer Def and Att to 1 on both Sub Screen and Sub Sweep and eliminate Aircraft Inolvement altogether (ie. Def and Att of 0)
-Super Sub Tech would not give any benefit to SUBs in regular combat, as they would then become overpowered militarily if built en masse (we are trying to keep SUBs economic units, rather than military units)
Sonar Tech (new) would increase Destroyer Def and Att to 3 on both Sub Screen and Sub Sweep
-it would also allow Cruisers to be involved, with Def and Att of 3 on both Sub Screen and Sub Sweep
LRA Tech would increase Aircraft Def and Att to 2 on both Sub Screen and Sub Sweep
-obviously if countering Techs were in play, they would cancel each other out

Why create a new tech?  How about making the sonar ability be a part of RADAR.  Radar is some what useless for USA and Japan at this point (ESPECIALLY early in the game)

[Jennifer]

Holy carp, those are HUGE SWEEPING CHANGES!

Wow, and you said I made a lot of changes!

Where to start,

1)  Super Submarines Tech should not eliminate Destroyers as a viable unit.  (You list that tech as dropping a destroyer to an Attack 1, Defend 1 unit, wtf?  Let’s just make it a submarine only game, no transports, no carriers, no battleships, sheesh!)

2)  Your statement that this is a war sim game is true.  I’ve made plenty of comments that this or that makes it more playable.  Buffing submarines is not making it more playable.  Submarines should remain nerfed and used only for CRD and nothing else.  This makes the game playable.

3)  Your statement that this is not historical is bunk.  For one, the whole reason for CRD is based on historical fact that submarines were anti-shipping units, they were not combat units.  Therefore, my statements of historical support for the ultra minor changes I am interested in are just as valid as the ones used for CRD in the HUGE MAJOR SWEEPING CHANGES of CRD to begin with!  Let’s not start having two standards now.

4)  Super Submarines should be replaced with Super Destroyers.  It’s more logical, it makes more sense from a game play perspective and it stops Submarines from being the Uber Unit.  The rule would be identical to super submarines, except, it would apply to destroyers. (Attack 3, Defend 2 with the technology.)  Just like an AAR Submarine with the technology.

5)  Submarines should have their attack value dropped to 1.  After all, you’re buying dozens each round just like tanks at the same cost.  They’re over powered as is.  Perhaps Submarine Cost 6 (5 with tech), Attack 1, Defend 0, CRD Ability would be appropriate given how powerful CRD is!

6)  Submarines may always chose to disengage from battle, but must make the choice BEFORE rolling their attack.

7)  Transport raids are a good idea (gee, wonder where that popped up first…) but it should be:

a)  Attacker all submarines
b)  Defender did not detect any submarines
c)  All submarines get 1 shot at 1 each (14 submarines would get 14 shots) and MUST disengage after this shot.
d)  Defenders who survive would get to return fire on fleeing submarines

8.) For once, Joe and I agree, you don’t need a new technology.  We disagree on what to do with Super Submarines, but I’m sure when he thinks about my solution some more, he’ll come around.

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Nutshell:

Submarines do CRD

Destroyers can be upgraded with technology (Super Submarines becomes Super Destroyers)

That’s the absolute minimalist change you can imagine and it actually improves game play instead of breaking submarines like most of the other proposed changes do.

[axis_roll]

@Cmdr:

6)  Submarines may always chose to disengage from battle, but must make the choice BEFORE rolling their attack.

How the F*K can you ever kill a sub if can always choose to disengage from a battle?

[Jennifer]

@axis_roll:

@Cmdr:

6)  Submarines may always chose to disengage from battle, but must make the choice BEFORE rolling their attack.

How the F*K can you ever kill a sub if can always choose to disengage from a battle?

Because attacker always has the choice to retreat.  I’m not talking defending submarines, hence when I used the word attack.  Please read.  I think if you actually read what I typed, almost all of your perceived issues with what I say would dry up and disappear.

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Here’s what I envision for submarines (in line with Enhanced Rules and Larry’s comments on Submarines.)

Submarines: Cost 6, Attack 2, Defend 1 (when forced to defend, may retreat instead.)

Submarines may EITHER attack OR engage in CRD as per AARe CRD rules.
Submarines MUST be detected by attacking destroyers OR they are given the option to engage or retreat/submerge (defender choice)
Submarines CANNOT attack other Submarines.  It’s unrealistic, it’s broken game play (negates the need for destroyers resulting in no destroyers being built) and it’s utterly stupid.

As per AA50 rules, submarines no longer make a sea zone hostile, which means you are free to load transports in them, unload transports from them, move any surface ship through them, and even bombard in support of amphibious assaults while in them.

Basically, submarines are exactly as intended in AA50 but are given CRD like in AARe.  No other abilities, no buffing, nothing.  If anything, submarines should be made weaker, possibly reducing their attack value to 1 and dropping their defense value to 0.  They are CRD units and can be brought in to sink undefended transports or very small fleets at best.  At worst, they should be a liability.

[axis_roll]

@Cmdr:

@axis_roll:

@Cmdr:

6)  Submarines may always chose to disengage from battle, but must make the choice BEFORE rolling their attack.

How the F*K can you ever kill a sub if can always choose to disengage from a battle?

Because attacker always has the choice to retreat.  I’m not talking defending submarines, hence when I used the word attack.  Please read.  I think if you actually read what I typed, almost all of your perceived issues with what I say would dry up and disappear.

You should make your posts clearer then.  Typical american:  I don’t have a problem, YOU have a problem.

Your initial post should have said

6)  ATTACKING Submarines may always chose to disengage from battle, but must make the choice BEFORE rolling their attack.

Just because you post long and often, doesn’t mean your posts are of high quality.  Typed messages are one of the worst ways to communicate since there is no <immediate>feedback.  Also, when someone has a question that was due to confusion / incomplete message, insulting the other person does not help the situation.

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One more thing, your posts are your opinion.  You post and then expect your word to become fact.  When people reply with questions of your wisdom, you get into a posting war often restating your view over and over as if you were in a school yard shouting match:

“My team is better than yours!”

“No, our team is better”

“No way, our team is better!”

Sometimes you ‘win’ a discussion because potential posters tire of reposting their own opinions only to be yelled at again that the other team is better.</immediate>

[axis_roll]

@Cmdr:

Here’s what I envision for submarines (in line with Enhanced Rules and Larry’s comments on Submarines.)

Submarines: Cost 6, Attack 2, Defend 1 (when forced to defend, may retreat instead.)

Can you elaborate on this .  What constitutes “defending”?  If detected (the only time they can be attacked)?

@Cmdr:

Submarines may EITHER attack OR engage in CRD as per AARe CRD rules.
Submarines MUST be detected by attacking destroyers OR they are given the option to engage or retreat/submerge (defender choice)

Basically, submarines are exactly as intended in AA50 but are given CRD like in AARe.

So sub detection and CRD are the same as AARe?
You do not believe the reduced cost of a sub ($6) should alter this?

I think this might play out OK in the pacific, but does it encourage sub investment enough in the Atlantic to make Germany buy some?

With a defense of only 1, subs are going to be easily killed/hunted at a low cost to the allies.  In other words, I don’t see a huge incentive for Germany to buy subs until I get some game play testing in.

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@Cmdr:

At worst, they should be a liability.

LOL… yes let’s buy some pieces that hurt us.

where does that statement come from?  You’re goofy

[Jennifer]

I used the word attack, you missed it, not my problem if you don’t read carefully.  But we can drop it, I think you’re learning to read through and ask questions when something doesn’t make sense instead of assuming you’re dealing with ID10T errors.

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What I mean when I say “forced to defend” is when they are detected.  A detected submarine has lost the option to submerge and therefore must defend itself.

I would like to make it so they can submerge later if the destroyers fail to find them in subsequent rounds.  This would represent the captain of the boat (it’s a boat, not a ship) diving and going silent to avoid detection.

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No, I do not believe that the submarine costing 5 or 6 IPC (tech depending) should alter their CRD rates or how hard it is for a destroyer to detect them.

It’s this reduced cost that would encourage Germany to put some in the water, it might even encourage Italy to put some in the water (hint hint!).  If we raised the price, it would only discourage their use more.

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I don’t see them being killed easily nor economically for the allies.  First, they only cost 6!  That’s less than in revised (25% cost reduction from revised) and the allies have to build destroyers to come get them.  If the submarines are in a group, they may not all be sunk in the first round (assuming they are detected) and may not be detected next round.  If they are not, then they may submerge and trap the allied fleet in that sea zone where they can resurface and attack at 2.

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Submarines would become a liability in circumstances where you, the player, screwed up and got too many.  The idea is you’d have 125% as many submarines as you think you’ll need to inflict maximum damage on the enemy, no more, no less.  The rest of your naval assets would be diverted into destroyers (which now cost the same as a submarine used too) and cruisers, carriers and battleships.

I do say 125% because you’ll have to assume the enemy will detect some of your submarines and come sink them.  It’ll probably cost your opponent 8 IPC for a destroyer (I’ll assume it is sunk either in the attack or in the defense) but it’ll also force you to replace the submarine if you go this route.

If you do buy 125% and the enemy ignores you, then you have a 25% liability.  Those units aren’t good for attacking anything, they couldn’t defend themselves from a mosquito attack, and they can’t inflict IPC damage.  The unit is now a liability.

[Imperious Leader]

oh my god just do this:

Germany can perform convoy raid attacks against USA and UK
USA can perform convoy raid attacks against Japan
UK can perform Convoy raid attacks on Italy but only from the Mediterranean.

Submarines:
Attacking Submarines can only engage enemy transports (with or without naval escort) or perform convoy raids on enemy sea zones designated as such. If they elect to attack transports perform the following sequence:

1. Subs each roll at 2 or less to hit. Transports are removed for each hit. Additional hits can go against other ships
   (the defender decides), but only after transports are all hit.
2. ASW units (Destroyers and Cruisers) then each return fire hitting at one. Remove subs.
3. Subs may elect to submerge or continue attack at the end of the round. If they submerge combat is over.

Note: If attacking ASW capable units ( cruisers and Destroyers) decide to engage the subs on their own turn follows the same procedure except ASW units are allocated as hits first rather than any transports.

Special Rules:
• If the active player has Super Subs Technology his subs attack at 3 or less.
• If the player has ASW Technology, then planes can now be involved and roll for ASW as long as a ASW naval unit is present (at a 1:1 basis). Also, all ASW units now roll at 2 or less to score a hit.
• Both Destroyers and Cruisers negate a submarines first strike, but at a 1:1 basis. Excess Subs over ASW still get preemptive fire. This goes for attack or defense.
• Planes cannot fire at submarines unless they gain ASW technology. Submarine hits can never be allocated against air units and subs cannot fight each other.

Submarines no longer block movement of surface naval units, except for transports. Submarines can never be involved in attacking fleets unless a transport is present. They are now strategic weapons to attack income and transports as the active player chooses. If the active player chooses to only perform a convoy raid thats fine, but if he chooses to go after the convoy transports he will face return fire for at least one round. So remember he can choose no combat, attack the nations income, or attack the transports directly. That’s to say they now perform as totally independent forms of naval combat. Once the surface naval combat is resolved, further combat with submarines can occur.

Wolf pack rule: 2+ German subs attacking together gain a +1 attack modifier on convoy raid attacks. This modifier lasts until the Allied player under attack develops ASW technology. This is a standard rule.

German Submarines cost 5 IPC.

Convoy Raid Attack: Each warship or plane in range can elect to attack a nation in addition to other attacks in the same sea zone if other ships are also present (subs can only attack transports in this manner with or without ASW units defending).

Procedure: move warship or plane in sea zone with convoy box roll and d6
1-2= 1 IPC lost
3-4= 2 IPC lost
5-6= 3 IPC lost

Following the Convoy Raid each submarine has the option to attack enemy transports located in the sea zone.

some of this may not apply in your case because some of the original ideas are not realistic and are based on balance only so it will need to be a bit altered, but still a good starting position.

[cousin_joe]

OK, some slight modifications here…

1. Convoy Raid Damage as in Enhanced
-submerged subs count, capital ICs only + WUS (we want to encourage, not discourage new ICs, also simpler)

2. Whenever a SUB is due to roll (either in attack or defence), it ALWAYS has the option to submerge instead
-opposing DDs still cancel 1st strike, however, they do not cancel a SUBs ability to submerge
-SUBs would still have to endure at least 1 round of combat if a DD is present (but at least not multiple rounds)

3. SUBs in a SZ by themselves(ie. no other surface vessels), are considered to be in Stealth mode
-In Stealth mode, SUBs are only vulnerable to DDs, and Aircraft at a reduced attack
-An Attack can only be rolled if there is an attacking DD present (otherwise SUBs can just choose to instantly submerge)
-The Attacking Force rolls for a Sub Sweep:
–-Each Attacking DD, FTR and BMBR rolls 1d@2
—Every Hit results in a SUB being Destroyed
—Each Surviving SUB has the option to submerge, or roll 1d@1 on Defence
—If the SUBs do not submerge, and the Atacking DD survives, the SUBs must undergo another round of attacks
Note that other surface vessels and enemy SUBs do not attack, and that aircraft roll at a reduced attack.  This gives the SUB increased survivability

4. Strategic Sinking Raids
-This is a special economic attack whereby SUBs can strike specifically at TRNs even if they are in a fleet
-Only 2SUBs/TURN may attempt this attack
-The SUBs are considered to be in stealth mode, and thus again, are only vulnerable to DDs, and FTRs at a reduced defence
-Defending Force must have at least one TRN
-The Defending Force rolls for a Sub Screen:
–-Each Defending DD and FTR rolls 1d@2 (FTRs can only roll if a DD is present)
—Every Hit results in a SUB being Destroyed
—All Surviving SUBs roll 1d@3 (benefit of being undetected)
—Every Hit results in a TRN being Destroyed
The reason I’m trying to push for this rule, is to give germany some way to slow down UK.  UK gets so much more income now, Convoy Raids alone are not going to affect them that much.  The other thing is that Allies can build up fo coastal bombardment so quickly now and it’s very difficult for Germany to get any type of fleet to counter.  Currently, once the UK fleet is big enough, German SUBs are pretty much useless (not to already say they’re useless before that because they’re so vulnerable)

5. Techs
Super Sub Tech would decrease DD,FTR Def to 1 and DD, FTR, BMBR Att to 1 on Sub Screen and Sub Sweep respectively
-Super Subs would roll 1d@4 on Strategic Sinking Raids
-Super Sub Tech would not give any benefit to SUBs in regular combat.  SUBs in general are quite strong in the Pacific actually when combined with lots of Aircraft.  This combo owns Surface Ships right now and I think the OOTB version of Super Subs makes it even worse.

Sonar Tech (possibly part of Radar/Sonar Tech) would increase Destroyer Def and Att to 3 on both Sub Screen and Sub Sweep
-it would also allow Cruisers to be involved, with Def and Att of 3 on both Sub Screen and Sub Sweep (Cruisers could also detect SUBs like DDs do)

LRA Tech would increase FTR Def and FTR, BMBR Att to 2 on Sub Screen and Sub Sweep respectively
-obviously if countering Techs were in play, they would cancel each other out

OK, a couple of name changes to make things more clear
Also boosted the attack and defense numbers for aircraft
The higher number of Aircraft in the Pacific will still keep SUBs vulnerable there
I think this system is much cleaner than the old detection rolls in AARe (DDs basically had to roll twice there)

[Jennifer]

Seems overly complicated, but it’s also before I’ve had my first cup of coffee.

Just a questions, are you saying that Japanese submarines would have to sail around S. America and up to SZ 10 before doing CRD to America?

I think, IMHO, if that is what you are saying, that we should leave CRD open to all ICs adjacent to the sea.  It was not that complicated before.

Likewise, only submarines not forced to submerge should be able to do CRD damage.

[cousin_joe]

1. Re: complexity, I think this system is better than the old detection roll.  You actually had to roll more dice for that one.
Now it’s just a simple question (whether on attack or defense)…

Are the SUBs by themselves or with other units?
…If with other units, then normal rules apply.
…If by themselves, then SUBS are stealthed and only DDs, FTRs and BMBRs can roll against them @2 each

On Defense, surviving SUBs can submerge instead of rolling for defense
On Attack, only 2 SUBs Max can Strategic Sinking Raid, at a roll of 3 each

I don’t know how it could get any simpler

2. No, I’ve included WUS (see 1)

3. This is debatable.  I think we trade Capital ICs only (+WUS), which would mean less IPC dmg, for inclusion of submerged SUBs, which would mean more IPC dmg.  It’s also much simpler this way, especially when phrasing the CRD rule as an NO.

ie. UK National Objective - “Keep all SUBs out of UK waters”
-2 IPC for SUBs in SZs 2,3,6,7,8
-1 IPC for SUBs in SZs 1,4,5,9,12

[tekkyy]

(2) already increased submarine survivability a lot (compared to AA50)
do we really need (3)?

anyway (3) is still quite complex
especially the modified combat value bit
I think the fact that only DD and air can hit stealth mode submarines is doing something already

you could be more gradual with the first version of AA50e?

[Jennifer]

Jenny’s Super Simple Submarine Rules for Enhanced Anniversary:

1)  Submarines cost 5 IPC with or without improved shipyards.
2)  Submarines attack at a 3, defend at a 0
3)  Submarines can only hit surface ships (Transports, Destroyers, Cruisers, Battleships and Aircraft Carriers)
4)  Destroyers, Jet Fighters and Heavy Bombers can detect submarines.  The attacker rolls 1 Die, the defender rolls 1 Die, after bonuses and penalties are taken into account, whoever has the lowest number wins (if the defender wins, the submarines have submerged before the attacker can return to kill them.)  Bonuses and penalties are from technologies, of course.
5)  Any surfaced Submarine adjacent to any of your industrial complexes at the end of your turn does 1 IPC CRD. 
6)  Germany, Italy and Russia are immune to CRD attacks (China is also immune in the off chance England buys a Complex for Kwangtung and then England falls followed by China liberating Kwangtung…it COULD happen, but I doubt it ever will!)

[Jennifer]

Let me clarify my reasoning on point number 2:

Submarines defend at a zero because they are not firing back, they are battening the hatches, flooding the ballast tanks and adjusting the dive planes hoping to get below depth charge depth before being sunk. (Which is silly, I guess you should say destroyed not sunk, since they sink on purpose…)

Meanwhile, they attack at three because they quietly slip into range, hide in the waves, line up their shot just right and fire.  Since there is resistance to giving them called shot abilities (where they tell us who they aim for before firing, like Kaitens and Kamikazees did in AARe) I figure this is a solution that would work.

Also, it should be mentioned that I am assuming Super Submarines has been changed to Super Destroyers which would increase Destroyer Attack Power = to Submarine Power.

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Submarines do not defend with a surface fleet, they travel solo usually way out ahead as scouts or raiding enemy shipping.  Treat them like transports if they are detected and defenseless.