As far as I have heard the chance of victory when the bomber is brought in to Egypt goes up from about 30% to 75% (and the chance of a tie is changed from 40% to about 80%. If this is incorrect I stand corrected but as for my opinions that is the numbers I use. I’m also assuming playing with NO’s.
After reading the posts here I’m still in favor of attacking Egypt on G1 with the bomber included. In real IPC values only counting lost units and change in income, yes, attacking the navy is better. There are a few things however that has to be considered.
First of all, Italy badly needs their NO’s, probably more so than any other power. Getting Italy on the move early will most likely win an extra bunch of IPC later turns, a change that can’t be calculated like lost units in G1. The effect of the invasion isn’t supposed to show on round one but to improve Axis positions for future turns.
Attacking Egypt does not make attacks against the royal navy impossible, you just have to be either selective or take a few risks. The only real mandatory attack is to remove the destroyer off Gibraltar to remove the UK chance of hitting the Italian navy.
UK has a few options now, if they reinforce africa the rest of their navy will be sunk. Attacking anywhere in europe will also make a non-reinforced british navy vulnerable to German planes (especially if they added a bomber in the purchase on G1). So they buy navy? Ok, then we probably are where we would be on UK1 anyway, a UK navy that Germany does not want to hit unless desperate. They buy bombers? Fine, I welcome them to “waste” an entire round of production. Africa would be up for grabs for the Axis for a few more turns. Italy will most likely be quite close to UK on round 3 and all of a sudden you got quite a lot of IPC helping either against a european invasion or at the east front.
I can see trouble coming Axis way but that is due to other imbalances in the game and not due to the fact that a UK BB is super-important to strike round 1 (not saying I wouldn’t though).
The general problem i face with germany in G1 is, that i dont just want to destroy a major proportion of the british forces, but also narrow down his builts. If the battleship and the transport dont go down, with no naval built a single aircraft carrier is enough to secure his fleet and the uk still has 29 IPCs to spend on other projects. That doesnt stop the general british plan of harrasing germany and securing africa and maybe even threatening the asian islands. With its BB alive, its not fleet or bombers or IC but all together.
But as i play without NOs, maybe the additional 5 italian IPCs are worth weaking the attack on his majestys navy.
Let me re-iterate, I feel it is a good idea for Germany, in 1941 setup (not in the 1942 setup) to attack Egypt on round 1. I do not feel it important to bring fighters to this engagement, nor bombers. I realize that this is most likely a suicide run resulting in either two enemy units surviving, no units surviving or as many as two friendly units surviving depending on how the dice land.
That said. I think just the act of weakening Egypt is important. Would you like an Egypt with a Fighter, 4 Infantry, Artillery, Armor and an Industrial Complex on it?
Remember, you most likely do not have the equipment set up to hit it with Germany anyway. Not with that much on there. If you do, England could always retreat to Sudan/Persia and set up a counter strike on anything you put in Egypt instead.
I’m afraid Germany must commit to Egypt on G1 and bring the bomber along becuase if he does not then the UK with little effort can deny Italy any chance in Africa and becuase of that any income in the game. Look at it this way, lets say Germany ignores Egypt on G1, Britain then moves its 2 inf from Trans-jordan to Egypt and takes their two fighters in England to Africa where they can arrive on egypt by UK2. Also, if Japan does not take out the India transport the UK can move an extra inf to Egypt of UK1. Either way you deny any hope of Italy taking out Egypt, and honestly what resources can Germany actually use on G2 to take out Egypt with those forces in place. By UK 3 Italy is out of Africa unless they spend every IPC to put a stack of inf on Libya.
Just to make it even worse America and take its West coast bomber to Australia on US1 and threaten any Japanese tranports who sail alone, and then on US 2 land in Egypt to threaten Italy with SBR raids further knocking them out of the war.
Or, you could just take Egypt on G1 and remove this entire threat for several turns and allow Italy to expand and threaten South Africa and India.
Well if you G1 Egypt what you bring, and how do you now allocate the attacks on the uk navy?
I guess off the bat the UK BB and Transport are to be ignored, or is their a way to still kill them plus the UK CA/DD?
you got 4 fighters and 2 subs
Look at it this way, lets say Germany ignores Egypt on G1, Britain then moves its 2 inf from Trans-jordan to Egypt and takes their two fighters in England to Africa where they can arrive on egypt by UK2
Thats two fighters spending two rounds doing nothing? No attack on the german fleet, no manning a carrier, no support for Karelia?
Just to make it even worse America and take its West coast bomber to Australia on US1 and threaten any Japanese tranports who sail alone, and then on US 2 land in Egypt to threaten Italy with SBR raids further knocking them out of the war.
Now the west coast bomber also spends two turns doing nothing? And you are aware that japan can take australia on j2? At least fly your west coast bomber into the UK and start SBR on U2. And if by some miracle there still are troops in Egypt, you can also land there.
Well if you G1 Egypt what you bring, and how do you now allocate the attacks on the uk navy?
I guess off the bat the UK BB and Transport are to be ignored, or is their a way to still kill them plus the UK CA/DD?
you got 4 fighters and 2 subs
I think there has been enough talk about optimal attack allocation in this event in this forum. 1 sub and two fighters vs. the cruiser and destroyer and 1 sub takes on the destroyer and the transport. There is not much what you can do wrong with these.
I think there has been enough talk about optimal attack allocation in this event in this forum. 1 sub and two fighters vs. the cruiser and destroyer and 1 sub takes on the destroyer and the transport. There is not much what you can do wrong with these.
Except loose the German fighter that has to land in Algeria US 1. And while it may be long odds for 1 INF and 1 ART I think it would be well worth it to deprive Germany of a fighter.
What about this:
Sz 2 - trn, bb vs. 2 subs, 1 ftr
Sz 6 - dd vs. sub, ftr
Sz 12 - dd, ca vs. 2 ftrs
Egy - 2 inf, 1 rt, 1 arm, 1 ftr vs. 2 inf, 1 rt, 2 arm, 1 bom
Now, in Sz 2 you should get 1 hit in rd 1 between your subs and ftr and in rd 2 you may even sink the BB without it even firing back if your sub hits.
Sz 12 is risky with only the 2 ftrs, but the price is a beefed up Egy attack. Otherwise, the bom to Sz 2 and 1 sub to sz 12.
In my first game as Axis I did:
1 sub, 1 ftr, 1 bom to Sz 2
1 sub, 1 ftr to sz 6
1 sub, 2 ftrs to sz 12
2 inf, 1 rt, 2 arm to Egy
And while I won all of them, I was not at all comfortable with the Egy Attack (I took with 1 tank leftover). I think I’d rather risk the Sz 12 battle then not taking out Egy. So I may try the bom to Egy in my next game.
Looks okay to me, DM. But then, I like to obliterate the Russian army between me and Moscow before I worry about england’s navy.
The main problem i see with this force deployment is that you are trading 2 fighters vs the cruiser and destroyer. Sure, if you succeed you got a clean sweep at the cost of probably loosing 2 fighters.
But now imagine that in sz 12 during the first cycle of combat you dont hit while the ca + dd hit once. Would you still attack? The ca and dd could together with the british bomber probably sink both italian cruisers or form the core of the new british fleet together with the dd and transport.
To sum it up: even if it works as planned you lose 1 to 2 aircraft, but if it fails i see great problems arise. Its a gamble hoping to lose no aircraft against the ca + dd. In this case the strategy is great.
So? With England without a navy, you can spend some of your hard earned money each round on fighters and bombers. I do anyway, personally. I think Air Force > Navy in this game.
But compared with an Egypt suicide attack you trade Egypt for two planes
My suggestion would be the moves in DM’s reply with one small change, I would probably go with the cruiser to Sz 6 as well. If they want to strike it they have to divide their forces between the lone transport and the cruiser. The transport should be toast anyway and the crusier will have the same amount of defense except that it will face fewer possible attackers.
When it comes to Sz 12 I want to point something out again, it is only important to sink one of those ships (probably the DD). There is a small chance of not hitting anything at all while loosing both planes but that’s is a risk I am willing to take.
Sz 2 has one upside, there can be no freak of nature-rolls here. UK can get 1 hit each turn maximum, Ger player always knows what he puts on the line each round of battle and is quite likely to win the battle with at least the Fig still flying.
@Imperious:
Well if you G1 Egypt what you bring, and how do you now allocate the attacks on the uk navy?
I guess off the bat the UK BB and Transport are to be ignored, or is their a way to still kill them plus the UK CA/DD?
you got 4 fighters and 2 subs
Ok here is what germany has to live with as far as taking out the UK fleet on G1:
1 sub, sea zone 5 to sea zone 6
1 ftr , Poland to sea zone 6 - land in Norway
2 subs, sea zone 7 to sea zone 9
1 ftr, Norway to sea zone 12 - land in Algeria
1 ftr, Germany to sea zone 12 - land in Algeria
1 ftr, Northwestern Europe to sea zone 12 - land in Algeria
I’m afraid the battleship and transport in sea zone 2 have to be left out for G1 attacks. The simple fact that no G1 attack on Egypt means no real Italian expansion in the game is too great a cost for 27 IPC’s of equipment. England loses 24 IPCs worth of men and equipment in Egypt alone which then leaves the door open to Italian expansion in Africa and possibly the mid-east.
On G2 the remaining fighters from the sea zone 12 attack can now either return to Europe from Algeria or continue to attack targets in the atlantic in coordination with whatever subs you have left. Also, use that German transport to then take Gibraltar to deny Allied planes from landing their and you have secured the Med for Italy in 2 turns, and forced the Allies to either take notice of Italy or let them eat the British empire territory by territory.
Look at it this way, lets say Germany ignores Egypt on G1, Britain then moves its 2 inf from Trans-jordan to Egypt and takes their two fighters in England to Africa where they can arrive on egypt by UK2
Thats two fighters spending two rounds doing nothing? No attack on the german fleet, no manning a carrier, no support for Karelia?
Just to make it even worse America and take its West coast bomber to Australia on US1 and threaten any Japanese tranports who sail alone, and then on US 2 land in Egypt to threaten Italy with SBR raids further knocking them out of the war.
Now the west coast bomber also spends two turns doing nothing? And you are aware that japan can take australia on j2? At least fly your west coast bomber into the UK and start SBR on U2. And if by some miracle there still are troops in Egypt, you can also land there.
1. They may not be attacking something each turn but instead are forcing the Axis to alter their strategy to respond to their movements. If Germany does not take Egypt on G1 then these 2 fighters spending a turn in the desert tip the balance of power in Africa in Britains favor and they can eventually go to India or land in Europe when they invade.
2. Once again the Bomber is not “doing nothing” it’s placement in Australia is a threat to any lone Jap transports and yes Japan might invade. So, you fly the American fighter from the US Carrier to Australia and force Japan to expend even more resources taking it.
Just becuase something is not attacking every single turn during the game does not mean it is wasted, or else in a couple turns the entire Jap navy is a huge waste? Are the two UK inf in South Africa a waste until the Axis come to wipe them out or they make it to Egypt so they can attack somewhere else? Their posistion in the game is a threat that forces the other side to change their strategy becuase they exist not just becuase they killed something last turn.
I do understand the frustration, but sometimes you have think longterm rather than shorterm. Which is why Germany must take Egypt on G1 and why some units do not get to attack every turn in the game.
I dunno, I’d feel bad if I left SZ 12 and there was a British boat afloat.
And the purpose of the Egypt attack is to stop England from having the Jordanians and Egyptians in the same zone, IMHO. Gives Italy a shot at taking both Jordan and Egypt and getting the NO
Should Germany take Egypt first turn?
Absolutely, positively, unequivocally, YES!!!
Germany Turn 1: Capture Egypt using the Bomber of course. (Lose the Bomber if you must, to take Egypt.) Also, destroy the UK SZ#12 fleet.
Japan turn 1: Destroy the UK SZ#34 Fleet with 2 Fighters.
Italy Turn 1: Capture TransJordan. If UK captures Morocco, then take it back with 2 Inf from Libia and the Fighter. This also ensures that no matter what UK built on UK1, (Bombers for example), they won’t be in range of the Italian fleet in SZ#15 on UK2 (unless they get Long Range of course). This also ensures that Italy will collect 21 IPCs on its first turn. This is good. This is very good. This is good enough to play.
As far as what Italy should build on its first turn, it depends on what the UK builds. If UK doesn’t build Bombers, then I lean towards either a Fighter for an I2 Carrier and Transport buy or buy the Transport this turn but leave the Battleship to Guard it. (The only unit which should be able to hit it should be the lone UK Bomber.) You will already have the units available to transport. If UK does go the Bomber route, then perhaps Italy should just save his IPCs and then have 31 IPCs to play with on I2.
I do agree that hitting the UK BB is very attractive, but Germany can still eliminate all of the rest of UK’s Atlantic fleet with very good odds, which means that UK will have to spend a lot of those 43 IPCs to just have an Atlantic fleet.
That sounds like an absolutely brilliant idea. The British would be thrown out of Egypt and Trans-Jordan, India would be threatend from the west as well as the east, most of Africa would have a chance chance of duly falling into Italy’s lap. As for leaving the British Battleship there on turn one, why not? I mean, the U.K. is not in any real position to do anything with it on turn one, since they have few transports and troops. True they could use it to take Morocco, but like someone mentioned, Italy could simply retake it next turn, and the Battleship would be by itself (and a transport) off the Coast of Europe, in range of German aircraft. So what’s that battleships gonna do? The answer, it’s not going to do anything. If I was the U.K. and faced with that situation, I would simply move it out of range and build ships in that SZ, then I might be in a position to take Africa, but that’s still risking it, as Italy would have plenty of money, which they could buy planes with, and Germany would still have many planes, so chances are it’ll go down anyhow.
@Ó:
As for leaving the British Battleship there on turn one, why not? I mean, the U.K. is not in any real position to do anything with it on turn one, since they have few transports and troops.
I disagree.
UK can build a fleet and move into SZ3, taking norway (what does Germany leave there G1 anyways?)
Even if Germany built a bomber (and the sz6 sub is around after sinking the UK DD on G1), (UK buys 2 cruisers (24), A/C (14), save $5, giving a fleet of tpt, A/C, 2 Cruisers, BB and 2 ftrs. That is more than a match for a german sub, 4 ftrs and a bomber
UK 2 ftrs and bomber take out baltic cruiser, losing the bomber if Germany gets two hits.
72% chance of Allies winning that battle, typically survive with BB and a/c (maybe a ftr).
Note this is not even the max fleet UK could muster. If they REALLY wanted to max out, they could buy 2 a/c, Cruiser. The US ftr from EUS can make it onto the SZ3 A/C, giving tpt, 2 A/C, cruiser, BB, 3 ftrs.
only a suicidal Germany player would attack that G2.
As for leaving the British Battleship there on turn one, why not? I mean, the U.K. is not in any real position to do anything with it on turn one, since they have few transports and troops.
Its not even really what it can do on turn 1 that concerns me. But its a chance to kill 27 IPCs while risking mostly just the subs which are likely going to die anyways since Britain and the US have DDs and aircraft in range almost anywhere in the Atlantic. Unless the Brit player is nearly brain-dead you will never get a good opportunity to kill that thing again and it will be a thorn in your side the rest of the game. Once Britain’s money starts downhill they can likely not afford to replace that BB again. But if they already HAVE it, it will make every attack you make with aircraft more expensive.
And as stated above, Britain can simply drop a CV on UK1 and they have 2 Fighters to put on it. Add another DD or two and for 22-30 IPCs they are more less immune to German airpower for a while (assuming Germany doesnt go all out on planes, which would result in a serious shortage of troops for the Russian front). My experience has been that unless that BB dies on G1, Germany is going to be looking at having to defend France (and Northern, to a lesser extend) EVERY turn and with increasing numbers of troops. Killing that BB means that Britain cant really afford to threaten an invasion for the first few turns without risking her fleet.
