The attacker decides whether to retreat/submerge before the defender decides whether to submerge, so your friend could retreat before you could submerge.
Special Sub Scenario
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In the last game I played as Germany, I had two subs off the coast of Western Europe, and the British player had two transports, some planes, and a battleship. Rather than fight my subs out with his battleship and then if successful land his troops in Western Europe with transports, he opted to attack my subs with his aircraft making them submerge, and then he moved his men in with his transports. Is this possible? I mean subs can’t fire at aircraft, and I know in AAE you had to have a destroyer to attack subs with aircraft, but Revised seems to make out that aircraft can clear a sea zone without there ever being any combat rolls simply because subs have first strike, subs can’t fire back, therefore they submerge when attacked by air.
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That move is NOT legal.
All Combat Movement is simultaneous. The ships for the Amphib moved in at the same time the aircraft flew over to attack the SUBs. So ALL of the ships and aircraft were in the sea zone (and subject to attack and defense rolls) when the SUBs were attacked.
Also, since you DID have SUBs there, the Battleships MUST attack the SUBs, they cannot hold back to fire their support shots for the Amphib. The Sea Battle engages first, so the BB’s fire there and cannot fire again.
What you opponent did in the last game was violate the core rules of the game in terms of the sequence of a move. First you do ALL Combat Movement, then ALL COMBAT, then all Non-Combat Movement. Your opponent did a Combat Move, then rolled Combat, THEN did ANOTHER Combat move after the first combat was resolved, then did another Combat.
What he did is no different than sending INF and FIGs to attack, as an example, Ukraine. Then after you win that battle sending your tanks through Ukraine to attack Caucuses.
There are very specific and explicit rules for doing an Amphib assault, and your opponent violated them.
What SHOULD have happened was all of the ships and all of the aircraft enter the sea zone with your SUBs. Your SUBs would get to fire their opening fire. All of his naval units and FIGs could then fire on your SUBs. Any that lived through that could then either submerge or they could continue to fight. Once that is resolved, then and ONLY then do the Transports offload the the attack on Western could take place, without BB fire, or the support of any of the units that participated in the naval combat.
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Thanks so much, that makes everything alot more clearer. One more thing though, I still don’t fully understand the sub sneak attack. Like whats the point of the subs firing first (assume no destroyer present) on defense if the attacker still gets to fire back? Also if the subs say attack a lone battleship, they can fire and then submerge without the battleship firing back?
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If there is no enemy DST, then any hits scored by the SUB are REMOVED FROM PLAY BEFORE THEY GET TO FIRE (the exception being a BB which must be hit TWICE before being removed).
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Thanks so much, that makes everything alot more clearer. One more thing though, I still don’t fully understand the sub sneak attack. Like whats the point of the subs firing first (assume no destroyer present) on defense if the attacker still gets to fire back? Also if the subs say attack a lone battleship, they can fire and then submerge without the battleship firing back?
The subs get opening fire shots. When an enemy destroyer is not present, these opening fire casualties are removed before the defender gets a defensive roll in the round of combat.
In your example, both subs would’ve need to hit to remove a transport.
The rule also for submering is that AFTER each round of battle, if there are no enemy destroyers, your subs may submerge.
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Can aircraft by themselves attack submarines?
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Can aircraft by themselves attack submarines?
Yes, but they get only 1 round of battle as any surviving sub can submerge (since there’s no enemy destroyer).
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Thats ridiculous if you ask me. If germany gets super subs, then their ability is totally wasted if Britain builds up an airforce. The air power will attack the subs, and totally negate their attack of 3 making them victim of a strike from which they can not return fire and only submerge.
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SUB detection was changed in A&A Pacific, but for Revised it remains as it was in Classic.
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Thats ridiculous if you ask me. If germany gets super subs, then their ability is totally wasted if Britain builds up an airforce. The air power will attack the subs, and totally negate their attack of 3 making them victim of a strike from which they can not return fire and only submerge.
Subs are a very weak unit in Revised.
There are many variant rules sets that treat subs much differently like AARHE (http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=7188.0) or AARe (also known as Enhanced) http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=11203.0
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@ncscswitch:
That move is NOT legal.
All Combat Movement is simultaneous. The ships for the Amphib moved in at the same time the aircraft flew over to attack the SUBs. So ALL of the ships and aircraft were in the sea zone (and subject to attack and defense rolls) when the SUBs were attacked.
Also, since you DID have SUBs there, the Battleships MUST attack the SUBs, they cannot hold back to fire their support shots for the Amphib. The Sea Battle engages first, so the BB’s fire there and cannot fire again.
What you opponent did in the last game was violate the core rules of the game in terms of the sequence of a move. First you do ALL Combat Movement, then ALL COMBAT, then all Non-Combat Movement. Your opponent did a Combat Move, then rolled Combat, THEN did ANOTHER Combat move after the first combat was resolved, then did another Combat.
What he did is no different than sending INF and FIGs to attack, as an example, Ukraine. Then after you win that battle sending your tanks through Ukraine to attack Caucuses.
There are very specific and explicit rules for doing an Amphib assault, and your opponent violated them.
What SHOULD have happened was all of the ships and all of the aircraft enter the sea zone with your SUBs. Your SUBs would get to fire their opening fire. All of his naval units and FIGs could then fire on your SUBs. Any that lived through that could then either submerge or they could continue to fight. Once that is resolved, then and ONLY then do the Transports offload the the attack on Western could take place, without BB fire, or the support of any of the units that participated in the naval combat.
I didn’t know that. If I want to conduct an amph. assault but I need to clear the seazone first, I can’t declare that I’m “reserving” my BB for a support shot? wow. That changes some things for me…
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actually, subs always fire in opening steps of a sea combat with or without presence of a destroyer.
An attacking destroyer makes it so that the subs roll (if it hits) makes the casualty when all other casualties are done.
Example of Battle: 1 destroyer and 2 subs attack a sub and two transports. Both sides fires the subs first, all of them hit (hypothetically) so the defender loses both tansports that don’t get return fire, attacker chooses the destroyer (hypothetically) but the destroyer still gets to fire.
A bit complicated but that is my understanding
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Also, I believe fighters attacking submarines without attacking naval vessels also get a shot at those submarines before they can submerge.
Anyway, if he had attacked your submarines, THEN, moved his transport and battleship through to unload into a FRIENDLY territory, that would be legal.
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Attacked my submarines with the battleship and transport thought right?
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Attacked my submarines with the battleship and transport thought right?
No, what Jen is saying is that if you’re trying to land troops in a friendly territory, you can attack the subs with just the planes during combat move. They will either be sunk or submerge, clearing the sea zone for the remainder of the turn, thus making it safe for a landing. Then you can bring your trns and bb into the sea zone for a landing in the friendly territory during NON-combat moves.
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Right. That is legal for a FRIENDLY landing, but not an amphibious assault.
And it is true that aircraft operating alone get to fire on enemy SUBs ONCE before the SUB can submerge (in revised anyway).
Personally, I think that the SUB should be able to do its opening fire step as a “submerge” against an air only attack. At a bare minimum, allow the SUB to roll its “to hot” die, and if they hit, they submerge before the aircraft could attack them.
Historically, SUBs were killed by DSTs, not aircraft. Aircraft inflicted SUB casualties were pretty low for most of the war for all sides.
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