Carrier Based Fighters

@Cmdr:

Per dezrt’s recommendation:

Here is the scenario:

America has an Aircraft Carrier in SZ 52 with 2 British Fighters on board.
England has an Aircraft Carrier in SZ 41 with 2 American Fighters on board.

On England’s turn, England moves the carrier, and fighters, in SZ 41 to SZ 52.
On America’s turn, America wants to attack SZ 37 with her two fighters and retrive them with her carrier.

According to SOME, this is impossible since the two American fighters ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO LAND ON THE BRITISH CARRIER AND NOT THE AMERICAN CARRIER.  According to the rules that come in the box and LHTR 2.0 (Larry Harris Tournament Rules) this should be possible because SZ 52 still contains an aircraft carrier to hold the British fighters and thus, the British fighters do not have to violate the rule that they cannot move when not on their turn.

Which is Sz 37?  I’m assuming it is 2 sz’s away.

The US must land on the UK AC b/c that is the only viable landing spot (per your scenerio).

In the given attack if the US AC moves into battle the two UK ftrs come with it (as cargo) but can’t fight.  Upon completion of the battle the only available spot to land is the empty UK AC in Sz 52 (from where the US ftrs came).

@Cmdr:

Scenario 2:

Japan decides to attack the combined fleet in SZ 52 BEFORE America can make their attack on SZ 37.  They fail to sink everything in the sea zone, but they do manage to destroy two British fighters and the British Carrier.  Now, according to SOME, this means the American fighters splash into the ocean because they cannot change to a new carrier.  But, according to the rules, the American fighters can land just fine on their own carrier since it has room for both fighters.

Not true, no one ever said they go splash.  In this case the US ftrs land on the available carrier, which in this case is the US AC.

There is a difference between attack and defense.

You cannot move other countries units when you attack.
Exception:  CARGO
Multinational units on a trn or
Multinational ftrs on an ac

@Cmdr:

Obviously, the correct interpretation of the rules is that you can keep or move any of your own fighters and carriers in any matter of your choosing provided you do not violate the rule that units cannot move unless it is their turn. (Except in the case when all carriers are sunk and defending fighters with no carrier to land on, AT ALL, in that sea zone can move one sea zone/territory to find a safe landing place.)

Now, absolutely NO BODY has been able to find a rule stipulating such silly rules as that your fighter is locked on whatever carrier it was on until you move it to a land zone for a FULL GAME ROUND, and then move it to a new carrier.

There is a rule like this for transports, but this is specifically created for transports because they do not act like normal.  Transports, unlike aircraft carriers, transport CARGO.  The only time Aircraft on Carriers are considered “cargo” is when you move the Aircraft Carrier with friendly fighters on board in the NCM portion (Phase 6) and this was only created as an escape so that friendly carriers would not be locked into a sea zone until all friendly aircraft left.  It was never designed to handicap players preventing them from ever using their carriers for their own fighters again!

However, as I mentioned before, if anyone can find me a specific rule stipulating that once a fighter lands on a carrier, it is permanently locked on that carrier until the carrier or the fighter is destroyed in combat, or the fighter leaves for a full game turn leaving the carrier defenseless.  Since no such rule exists, then it is pretty obvious that you can freely assign fighters to whatever carrier is convenient provided they do not change sea zones - even if it is not your fighter’s turn.

The Ftrs ARE CARGO.  You cannot move other countries units when you attack.

The fighters only become “locked for purposes of attack” until the next time they can legally move.  In the case of the US-Japan thing.  The UK ftrs are stuck until UK’s next move.

I don’t think anyone is disputing your claims in terms of defense.  You’re free to lose any AC/ftrs you want and have your ftrs land on the survivors HOWEVER if those ACs ARE NOT SUNK YOU CANNOT SWITCH CARRIERS.

EX - UK AC with 2 US ftrs and US AC with 2 UK ftrs.
If you take NO HITS the set up MUST REMAIN AS IS.

If you take 1 hit and lose an AC (say UK ac), the US AC must remain with the UK ftrs and the two US ftrs are free to land on an available island if present.

If you take 3 hits you can lose 1 UK AC, and 2 UK 2 ftrs and then have a US AC with 2 US ftrs left (or vice versa).

The problem with you idea of mix and matching is it can provide an advantage of extra movement by one country.  Here is one last scenerio:

UK AC with 2 US ftrs in SZ 8.  The UK lands 2 ftrs on a US AC in Sz 10 (due to German air threat).  On the US turn you move the AC (with UK ftrs) to Sz 8.  Now you simply can’t swap units because the UK AC is already occupied by 2 US ftrs.  THEY CANNOT MOVE ON UKs turn AND They can’t land on the US AC in SZ 10 or switch to it in SZ 8 bc that AC is occupied by the 2 UK ftrs.

In order to do the switch you’d have to leave the US AC in Sz 10 empty (no uk ftrs), then move the AC to Sz 8, DECLARE the US ftrs (already there) are landing on the US AC, THEN on the Following UK turn move the UK ftrs to the now empty UK AC in Sz 8.  But you can’t get around leaving the Sz with 2 AC and ONLY 2 ftrs at somepoint if you want to switch.

Any posts in this thread that I think are baiting or personaly critical I will delete regardless of the author or any valid content.

I personal have an opinion that I will give shortly.

:|
Seems to me, what Jennifer wants to get the OK opinion of this group is to do what we call in the Navy, a; Cross Deck Operation, or more commonly called, Cross Decking. That is when two task forces meet up and they swap units with the other task force. This can be completed usually within a 24 to 48 hour time period, depending on the amount of units that have to be swapped out. This is well within the time frame of a game turn, and since there is nothing in the rules that specifically addresses this issue, then I say go with what is perfectly resonable to do.
That is my vote, if I have one that is. :lol:

OK here you go, I don’t think coment is required.

From the box rules:
Page 13 (Combat move Aircraft Carriers)
Aircraft Carriers
Aircraft carriers can move during this phase, but first they must “launch” any of their fighters that are to engage in combat this turn. (You don’t have to launch all fighters on a carrier.) The fighters can then make a combat move from the carrier’s sea zone. Fighters that you don’t launch before moving the aircraft carrier are cargo (generally, these are fighters belonging to a friendly power). Cargo cannot take part in combat and is destroyed if the carrier is destroyed. Whether it moves during the combat move or noncombat move phase, an aircraft carrier allows friendly fighters to land on it in the sea zone where it finishes its move.

Page 30 (Aircraft Carriers)
Carry Fighters: An aircraft carrier can carry up to two fighters, including those belonging to friendly powers. Fighters from friendly powers can take off and land from your carriers, but only during that power’s turn. A fighter must be launched from the carrier’s initial position to participate in an attack this turn. If the carrier moves first, the fighters on board are cargo. Fighters belonging to friendly powers on attacking carriers are always treated as cargo, as it is not their turn. Your aircraft carrier can move to a sea zone where one of your fighters has ended its move (and in fact, it must do so) but cannot move any farther that turn.
Fighter Defense: Whenever a carrier is attacked, its fighters (even those belonging to friendly powers) are considered to be defending in the air and can be chosen as casualties rather than the carrier. (However, a fighter can’t be chosen as a casualty from a submarine hit, because submarines can attack only sea units. See Submarines, on page 32.)

and

From LHTR 2.0
Page 10 (Combat movement Aircraft Carriers)
Aircraft Carriers
Aircraft carriers can move during this phase. Any fighters belonging to the aircraft carrier owner launch before the carrier moves and move independently of the carrier. These fighters can make a combat move from the carrier’s sea zone, or they can remain in the sea zone until the noncombat move phase.

Guest fighters belonging to a friendly power on board your carrier must remain on board as cargo if the carrier moves in combat. They cannot take part in combat and are destroyed if the carrier is destroyed.

Whether it moves during the combat move or noncombat move phase, an aircraft carrier allows friendly fighters to land on it in the sea zone where it finishes its move.

Page 28 Aircraft Carriers
Special Abilities:
Carry Fighters: An aircraft carrier can carry up to two fighters, including those belonging to friendly powers. Fighters from friendly powers can take off and land from your carriers, but only during that power’s turn. Any fighters belonging to the aircraft carrier owner move independently of the carrier. These fighters can make a combat move from the carrier’s original sea zone, or they can remain in the original sea zone until the noncombat move phase. Fighters belonging to friendly powers on attacking carriers are always treated as cargo, as it is not their turn. Your aircraft carrier can move to or remain in a sea zone where one of your fighters will end its noncombat move (and in fact, it must do so if it is able).

Fighter Defense: Whenever a carrier is attacked, its fighters (even those belonging to friendly powers) are considered to be defending in the air and can be chosen as casualties rather than the carrier. (However, a fighter can’t be chosen as a casualty from a submarine hit, because submarines can attack only sea units).

In case it’s not obvious they’re pretty similar.

@Crazy:

:|
Seems to me, what Jennifer wants to get the OK opinion of this group is to do what we call in the Navy, a; Cross Deck Operation, or more commonly called, Cross Decking. That is when two task forces meet up and they swap units with the other task force. This can be completed usually within a 24 to 48 hour time period, depending on the amount of units that have to be swapped out. This is well within the time frame of a game turn, and since there is nothing in the rules that specifically addresses this issue, then I say go with what is perfectly resonable to do.
That is my vote, if I have one that is. :lol:

Yes this is a normal thing in real life, but Axis and Allies isn’t real life it’s a game.  “Cross Decking” can be a rule in CJTR 1.0

In scenario 2 above, the position declared by those who were discussing this is completely mischaracterized.

If the AC the FIGs started on is sunk, they may, according to the rules, move UP TO 1 SPACE to reach a safe LZ.  That safe LZ can include a surviving Allied AC in the same (or an adjacent) SZ, SO LONG AS THERE IS SPACE FOR THE FIGs TO LAND THERE.

As posted in Scenario 2 above, the USA FIGs could move to the USA Carrier, since there is now room for them due to the death of the UK FIGs.

What you can NOT do is change which AC the surviving FIGs are on IF THE AC THEY WERE BASED ON IS NOT SUNK.

And, to the original question that started this whole mess…
If both AC’s survive that Scenario 2 attack on the joint USA/UK fleet, the FIGs return to their ORIGINAL AC… the one they were on at the start of the battle.

The ONLY time that a defending FIG may move under the rules is if the AC that it was on is sunk.  And if one AC is sunk, then obviously you are not “shuffling” FIGs from one AC to another, because the second AC no longer exists.

Back to the original question:
Can 2 USA FIGs on a UK AC switch places with 2 UK FIGs that are on a USA AC?
That answer is YES, but one nation would have to fly their FIGs somewhere else where there was room for them to land to free up space for the second nation to then fly their planes to the other carrier.  Then the first group of planes can fly to the now vacant second AC.  It would take 2 moves of 1 nation, and one move of the second nation to accomplish this.

Example:  USA flies their 2 FIGs off the UK AC in the the USA turn, leaving the UK AC vacant and 2 UK FIGs on the US AC.  The two USA FIGs are SOMEWHERE ELSE… on an island, in WUS, or wherever, but they have been flown OUT of the sea zone in order to leave room on the UK carrier for the UK to move its FIGs  Then on UK’s move, the UK FIGs are flown from the UK AC.  Then on the next USA turn, the USA FIGs fly back and land on the USA AC.

I will suggest to Larry, that in Anniversary ed, it should not be possible to use other nations carriers or trannies.

@Adlertag:

I will suggest to Larry, that in Anniversary ed, it should not be possible to use other nations carriers or trannies.

why?

I think the rules regarding friendly carriers is perfectly fine as is.  Switch is 100% correct in his post, IMHO.

I agree with Adlertag all the problems may be solved avoding this not historical mess. Swordifish do not operate ordinarily from US Enterprise. If this happened it was an exception. In the WWII there was a lot of exception but we may not use all of them to make rules. Otherwise a single German Tank, commanded by Lt. Witmann, should be ordinarily able to destroy a British Armoured division as happened at Caen in 1944 and so on. So each nations have to use its carriers to land his own fighters.

For game purposes A&A have to simplify the things. And things are more simple. If you play the real boardgame face to face it is very easy to see that the figthers of two differen nations are never in the air at same time in order to perfom the switch. I play A&A face to face with my friends every week and we will never allow the USA player, in HIS TURN, to move the English fighter from the USA Carrier to the UK carrier. You have to physically pick up the fighters of another nation with your fingers to MOVE them and this is not allowed by the rule.

From the OOB Operation Manual, page 21, Phase 5 Non Combat Move:

In this phase, you can move any of your units that did not move in the combat move phase or participate in combat during your turn. This is a good time to gather your units, either to strengthen vulnerable territories or to reinforce units at the front.

WHERE SHOULD I MOVE?
This is when you should prepare for the future. Move units to defend territories and sea zones you value, especially your side’s capitals and victory cities. Place sacrificial units in the way of enemy forces to slow them down. Reinforce victorious units that have conquered territories. Move your transports and aircraft carriers to where they can pick up and move friendly units to critical areas. Get poor defensive units such as bombers out of harm’s way. Stock up around captured and soon-to-be-built industrial complexes. Above all, don’t leave anything where it won’t be useful later.

You are entitled to move only your units, you cannot pick up fighters of another nation to make room for your fighters. The active player is the one that is allowed to reorganize his units in order to defend himself. The other players are not allowed to make moves to reorganize or reinforce their units. If someone of my friends should even try to do such things we will merrily slap him!

How we solve the problem? A player physically land the fighter miniatures on the carrier miniature. AC miniature have a suitable flat top to accomodate the fighter miniatures at the end of the NCM, when the fighters land. They stay there and no one may touch until the following turn of the nations the fighters belong to. Then they are launched and ready to perform their CM and NCM: the fighter miniatures are placed in the sea zone in wich the carrier are.

The only exceptions when the two differents nations fighters are the air at the same time is during a defensive battle. In such case fighter are able per rules to participate to the battle. But if them and the carrier are not destroyed they have to return on the original Carrier from where they take off. Allowing them to switch would mean allow two other passive player, different from active player to rearrange units during the turn of another nation, a thing that in the rules is made during NCM of a player turn, not during the combat of another player. Even if the fighters stay in the same sea zone is not possible.

In face to face game it is very simple to do that. The defensive fighters are launched and placed beside the carrier they belong to (we do not use the battle board anymore) so it is simple to see where thay have to land.

As last thing I sould like to say about face to face game is that fighters and land units when embarked have always to stay on the board near the ship that transport them to clearly indicate to every player on which ship they are. Is not possible to switch them at will from one ship to another. I can not load two inf on a single TRN and then moving to a sea zone where there is another TRN and makes two amphibious landing in two different territories moving one infantry from a TRN to the other. If someone would like to assault two territories he should have loaded two different transports. If someone has two TRNs at sea each one loaded with 1 inf and a sub attack and sunk one of them it is not possible to lose an empty TRN while the two inf stay on the other one.

I think you need to be able to use other nations carriers, I rarely see the multination transport thing though.  But in terms of Ftrs and AC it is usually a huge part of early Allied moves for protection.

Think about how much the UK/US fleets move from sz 8 to sz 12 to sz 6 to sz 5, etc.  Without the ability to land US ftrs on the UK AC (or UK ftrs on US AC) that could really hurt in terms of holding off Germany.

The game would require some serious rebalancing in the Atlantic which could ultimately lead to even more formulaic openings.

Without the US ftrs option to land, I can see an aggressive Germany actually going after London and sinking the Brits before the US can place and move ships into range.

Also it cuts down on attacking options.  I’m thinking of a US strike on a German fleet in Sz 7.  With no option to land on a potential UK AC that could really be trouble.

Finally, I can’t see the game logic for disallowing it (after it has been in use for so long).  The game isn’t about accuracy, and I can’t see why you would be allowed to have stacks and stack and stacks of UK and US troops all over Moscow, Novo, etc yet two of the friendlier allies (UK and US) can’t land a ftr or two on one or the others AC.

Quite honestly, I think the argument (about swapping ftrs) has been blown way out of proportion.  While we can dream up scenerios all day the long the reality is the need to swap 4 ftrs on 2 ACs in the same sz just doesn’t happen much if ever in a real game.  The UK buys maybe one AC (if that) and after that the US would buy any remaining capital ships.  It is not like you constantly have AC and ftr buys with every country and do all this mixing and matching.  You usually end up with 1 UK AC that carries a few US ftrs until you have enough trns or other capital ships in place and then you naturally switch up if you want.

Also it is not like this is a new rule or something, Ftrs/ACs have had this option since at least 2nd Ed (I never played 1st Ed) and it was an integral part of the game - UK buys AC and US lands ftrs for protection, but in Revised now that you can place directly onto a newly purchased AC or hover and wait for a new one to be placed this reduces the need for mixing and matching even more.

what can I say ?

@Cmdr:

The scenario actually comes up pretty often, more so in classic, but it does in revised too.  For instance, America lands two fighters on a British carrier in SZ 8 to defend the fleet and then, 3 turns later, has bought and moved their own carrier into the sea zone and wants her fighters on her own carrier to make strikes 3 sea zones away (fighters move three, carrier moves to retrieve them two spaces away.)

Then move the Ftrs.  At that point Germany CAN’T ATTACK sz 8.  At this point the Allies have 1 sub (russian), 2-3 UK trns (minimum), 2-3 US trns (minimum), 2 US DD, 1 US BB (either there or one move away in sz 10), 1 UK AC with 2 US ftrs (per your post), and 1 US AC.

Thats, 1 sub, 4-6 trns, 2 dd, 2 ac, 2 ftrs, 1 bb (maybe 2 with US bb). 
No way Germany sacks its air on that!  I wouldn’t even be afraid if Ger had up to 9-10 planes in WE.

You simply move the US AC to Sz 8 and declare the US ftrs land there (from the UK ac).  Then on UK’s turn you’re free to move UK ftrs to the UK AC in Sz 8 or if you move it to Sz 6.

@Cmdr:

It’s hardly a “moot” issue.

It is a moot point. 
If the Allies can’t coordinate their fleet and air movements then they deserve to lose or at the very least have their fleets sunk.  :-D

@dezrtfish:

OK here you go, I don’t think coment is required.

From the box rules:
Page 30 (Aircraft Carriers)
Carry Fighters: An aircraft carrier can carry up to two fighters, including those belonging to friendly powers. Fighters from friendly powers can take off and land from your carriers, but only during that power’s turn. A fighter must be launched from the carrier’s initial position to participate in an attack this turn. If the carrier moves first, the fighters on board are cargo. Fighters belonging to friendly powers on attacking carriers are always treated as cargo, as it is not their turn. Your aircraft carrier can move to a sea zone where one of your fighters has ended its move (and in fact, it must do so) but cannot move any farther that turn.
Fighter Defense: Whenever a carrier is attacked, its fighters (even those belonging to friendly powers) are considered to be defending in the air and can be chosen as casualties rather than the carrier. (However, a fighter can’t be chosen as a casualty from a submarine hit, because submarines can attack only sea units. See Submarines, on page 32.)

and

From LHTR 2.0
Page 28 Aircraft Carriers
Special Abilities:
Carry Fighters: An aircraft carrier can carry up to two fighters, including those belonging to friendly powers. Fighters from friendly powers can take off and land from your carriers, but only during that power’s turn. Any fighters belonging to the aircraft carrier owner move independently of the carrier. These fighters can make a combat move from the carrier’s original sea zone, or they can remain in the original sea zone until the noncombat move phase. Fighters belonging to friendly powers on attacking carriers are always treated as cargo, as it is not their turn. Your aircraft carrier can move to or remain in a sea zone where one of your fighters will end its noncombat move (and in fact, it must do so if it is able).

Fighter Defense: Whenever a carrier is attacked, its fighters (even those belonging to friendly powers) are considered to be defending in the air and can be chosen as casualties rather than the carrier. (However, a fighter can’t be chosen as a casualty from a submarine hit, because submarines can attack only sea units).

In case it’s not obvious they’re pretty similar.

@Cmdr:

However, I will accept your LHTR 2.0 quote since it does lock down the rule that “guest fighters” must remain on board until their turn.

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So, what we have here is in the case of the rules that came with the game is the ability to put your fighters on any bloody carrier you want as long as there is room and you do not “kamikazee” them.  And in LHTR 2.0 they have repaired the rule so that your carriers act more like Transports and less like Carriers.

I’m curious, what’s the difference between the quoted rules above that makes you say that the box rules and LHTR differ on this point?

Actually, I meant what’s the exact difference in the wording between the two rulesets that makes you say they differ.