The UnBaltic - CSub paper #18

The TripleA dev community is working hard on LHTR compliance.
However, due to shotrage of programmers (and IMO an aging code structure) various issues are on low priority.

I find the TripleA community (those who visits the TripleA forum) is informed of the situation and wouldn’t consider the missing rules of TripleA a de-facto standard. Players would do the right thing even when the program does not force them.

(Though sometimes its not good enough. Hence TripleA now has a edit mode.)

Now, I do see your worry and wonder whether CSub papers are built from TripleA playtesting data.

TripleA allows and does not allow things all the time.  For instance, it will not allow you to move your fighters into combat without moving the carriers appropriately first.  However, it’s perfectly legal to move the fighters and only declare you are moving the carriers IF the fighters survive.

I suspect it’s the same here.

Anyway, you COULD strafe and kill the Transport, Destroyer.  But what if the Germans decide to kill a transport/submarine instead of the transport Destroyer leaving a submarine/destroyer?  Are you prepared to leave the Germans with a free destroyer?  What if they decide to sink two submarines leaving a transport, Destroyer?  How many of us are prepared to allow the Germans to slip a destroyer and a transport into the Med with their Battleship, Transport?

Mazer,

You have to realize that when you take CSub rules out of CSub then you have to account for the rules everyone else uses, not just your adjustments (all of which are included or improved on by LHTR.)

I dare say 100% of the people, except you, use LHTR on this site.  Maybe there’s one or two others out of the 15,000+ registered members who do not use LHTR, but the point isn’t the ratio of users to non-users, but that the vast majority of this site uses LHTR primarily, the rest use TripleA only because they like using the TripleA program.

If your papers do not work in LHTR, then expect to have them blasted out of the water on this site.  If you do NOT want them blasted out of the water, I suggest you type up your rule set and then your paper so as to limit the discussion to only your rule set.

That said, I’m holding to my statement.  No matter how England attacks the fleet or does not attack the fleet, it is bad for England.  The only chance you have is if you attack with air only and the defender scores no hits.  But the odds of that happening is identical to the same happening in SZ 5.  If England attacks with fleet, the obvious objective would be to kill the destroyer and transport to make clearing the Med easier.  Killing the submarines really isn’t a high priority for the allies.  So all Germany has to do is use teh same OOL they would against Air only, Sub, Sub, Trn, DD.  If the navy attacks, just go trn, sub, sub, dd.  If he retreats without killing the DD, you effectively earned a 12 IPC bid (assuming the American bomber is shot down or misses.) If he kills the DD, then he’s set up for an Air Attack by Germany on Round 2.

I knew there was something off about you. :P

Actually, I don’t think it is reasonable to assume someone who has never seen a CSub paper will look for a CSub only rule set.  They’ll probably look around the same forum that they saw the paper in and determine that is the rule set.

Since LHTR seems to be the standard around here (rare to find a game where they say OOB rules or something like that) then people will naturally assume that LHTR is what that paper goes with.

Also, for those who wish to play an enlightened game, however, can play a LHTR game with about 10 seconds of reading the rules.  There are NOT that many differences between LHTR and Box rules.  The reason you think LHTR is so huge is because all the box rules that were NOT changed were printed in LHTR.  Unlike CSUB which requires you read both the box rules and then the CSUB rules, so it really takes about 20 minutes to read the CSUB rules, if you had never read the rules.  (Same with LHTR, except you don’t have to read it one way, then read the contradiction/correction after; you just read the LHTR.)

That said, the idea does work out nicely in LHTR.  The only change I would make is Submarine from SZ 8 to SZ 13 instead of SZ 7.  You don’t need it in SZ 7.  But having it in SZ 13 can save a fighter, and thus, make a counter attack on SZ 7 much more fruitful.

Is there a nit that either of you will not pick with the other?
:wink:

@ncscswitch:

Is there a nit that either of you will not pick with the other?
:wink:

Yup.  I won’t argue who has the bigger penis. I’ll just re-iterate that women are genetically superior to men because God had to practice first to find the flaws, then created the perfect being.  :evil:

@Cmdr:

I’ll just re-iterate that women are genetically superior to men because God had to practice first to find the flaws, then created the perfect being.  :evil:

Then Why was Man made in Gods image?

and a woman was made from the rib of man.

She’s a copy of a copy… and we all know how poor THAT quality is!  :evil:

Pals, better end the sex-war debate  :-P All wars are bad (saving wars with plastic pieces , of course), but war of the sexes (spelling?) is the worst war of all  :cry:

@Mazer:

The problem is, this isn’t quite how it works in reality.  While it’s true the attacker can’t retreat from submerged subs, they can retreat before the subs submerge.

Now, I do see your worry and wonder whether CSub papers are built from TripleA playtesting data.

Guys, this is just silly.

Don’t you think that a CSub paper would be written under CSub rules?

We don’t write for LHTR, or TripleA, or DAAK, etc.  We write for our own system because it is the simplest and most coherent.

CSub rules are only one page long, and half of that is explaining the bid.  It is completely logical that we would use our own system, not someone else’s.

If you haven’t taken the time to understand the shortest rules around, then don’t be so quick to criticize.

Rules (last link):
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Caspian_Sub/files/

Peace

Hmmm… didn’t know you had a rule set.  Sorry to have offended you.

I don’t intend to play by them, but they your comment in the paper makes much more sense given those terms.

@Funcioneta:

Pals, better end the sex-war debate  :-P All wars are bad (saving wars with plastic pieces , of course), but war of the sexes (spelling?) is the worst war of all :cry:

not if you wage it correctly  :-o :wink:

Oh, and allow me to add:

Fricking subs!

Oh crap.
I knew I should have taken the effect to see what CSub is.

Its famous enough. I know of it when I first researched about Axis and Allies (before I bought the game) but didn’t go into the site.

So I just thought CSub is all about policy papers.

1 page ruleset? Nows that amazing. I am going to check it out.

Ah. I just googled caspian sub and its all coming back to me.
I never found out about CSub because it requires joining.

Would nice if Mazer could post the ruleset here.

Did you notice NOTHING is downloadable without joining the CSub yahoo group?
Would be nice if CORE things were downloadable without joining.

I wonder why its like this.

LHTR, AARe and AARHE files are all avaliable to the general public without joining anything.

Also, you should note, that it’s a one page summary of CHANGES to the rules.  It is NOT a rules set like LHTR.  There’s a significant difference.

For one, someone who has never read the Revised Rules from the Box can play with the LHTR rules.  You cannot play with the CSUB rules under the same circumstances.

Man was the first made in God’s image.  Then God realized he made a mistake and fixed it on Human 1.1 (as we know, beta testing is always hard on the creator, there are all these bugs that have to be fixed.  That’s why we go with release after beta testing.  Women are the released version, men are the beta version. :P).

Two questions:

TripleA has an edit function? Is there a newer version that 0.9.0.2?

How come CSub rules say subs submerge before the attacker can retreat, when – as has been said – LHTR rules say attacker first?

Even under LHTR, I still think UnBaltic, fleet unification, whatever you want to call it is still one of Germany’s best openings. For one, if the UK does retreat to sz8, then the US strafe of sz7 will only have a bmb. The EUS ftr can only hit sz7 if there’s a UK ac there.

A bid of 1sub in sz8 can wipe out both UK bbs – though likely at the cost of a ftr – and sorta prevents a US1 landing in Alg, but Germany doesn’t make it very far in Africa. A Baltic ac forces a smart UK player to build ftrs and can still go north or sit in the Baltic, but it doesn’t slow down Africa landings.

Another result of UK retreating to sz7 could be that G1 doesn’t involve an air purchase. If UK’s not gonna bring the fight, then this could free up money for a G1 Med ac (and trn?) purchase to meet up in sz13 on G2, or other G2 air/sea purchases.

@Craig:

The LHTR are here.  And further more, they are the basis for everything moving forward.  (Yes, I have an inside line on things.  8-) )

Oooh more insider hints.
Still doesn’t fix the disappointment of LHTR 2.0 being a bit “LHTR 1.4”, yet.

Did you notice NOTHING is downloadable without joining the CSub yahoo group?
Would be nice if CORE things were downloadable without joining.

I wonder why its like this.

Because Mazer likes to review the posts so that things don’t turn into a “monkey dung fight”.  (His words, not mine.)

Thats just posting.
Is it not possible with yahoo groups to set public access to “files” and “photos”?

@hyogoetophile:

TripleA has an edit function? Is there a newer version that 0.9.0.2?

Yeah 0.9.1.0 unstable and 0.9.3.0 unstable.
I don’t use TripleA though.
But I try to keep up with things after I make a tiny contribution a long time ago, last year.  :lol: