Like I stated in my pervious post, convoys do not produce income. They are transit points (ships do not make income, they move income). These represent vulnerabilities in the supply lines. I believe that CBs should be attacked and when attacked they reduce the available income of the owning nation.
Gay :cry:
So in saying this you have made the decision for everyone.
Whats the point of a SBR then?
Playing games with the same friends does not constitute play testing. Yes you have an insight that most of us do not, so tell me this. Did you win most of the time? Did you play the same people? How long did it take to play? Honestly rate your competition?
Did you test it or just play?
Can you provide pictures of the board 3 turns to 5 turns in, the next time you play? That would actually be a great help.
I would love too provide pictures, and I will. :)
As for my competition varies from week to week, I Have a Pool of 8-10 peeps + a few pop ins here and there. At least 6 of them I would consider very well versed in the ways of A&A.
As far as testing , what do you mean.
We set board up and played from the original post
A few rules we used that you should know about,
Ind. Complex In a Capitol city only had no limits on production-Rome Berlin, London, Washington, Tokyo,Moscow
others such as Sydney and Calcutta, could only produce IPC worth of territory
Positronicas turn order of,
Germany-Russia-Japan-UK-Italy-USA+China
We had a ten Techs- Most where basic AAR + a few from the “House” and Net. Nothing crazy.
We played with and without NA’s Frequently both ways
We toyed with Japans First strike as in Pacific, They don’t need it. I would say the Allies won most of the Games,but not by many.
We use CAP rules from Pacific.
Tanks where 3/3
I appreciate the time it takes to devise a IPCs system. And yours will probably work just fine. I am not saying it is bad or wrong. I am entitled to my own opinion as well.
And you still have not addressed my concerns:
1. With such a high IPC count the piece density will be high. This will slow the game down and consume even more of the limited space on the map.
Yes… the map is larger but the majority of the growth is in Russia and China. If you look at the historical fronts they are not that much bigger and surely this does not constitute the 85 IPCs you have given the US. Do you really think the US needs that much money when on the map they have not actually gained that much territory?
2. Historical relevance. I don’t think your IPC values reflect the economic situation of the war. Where did these figures come from?
You make a valid point concerning Britain. After reviewing the AAR map I noticed that Japan is in control of the South Pacific whereas on our map Britain controls these territories. And considering the time frame in which our map is reflecting, Britain should receive a larger percentage then Japan. I also believe that if Japan starts with fewer IPCs this will encourage a more aggressive opening by the Japanese player, reflecting the war in better detail.
So I will post my new suggested IPC count.
1 Piece Density. Yes there 2-3 spaces in and around Europe, West Germany, London, Berlin. This inconvenience is mostly first turn though, after set up, before first move. Bombers take up space. :) Use a Fleet card
After every thing gets chipped, No Probs.
1a 10 of that is Chinas money so therefore the US only makes 75, the same as Britain. The US is a vast Natural resource with major manufacturing capabilities. Britain needs half the globe to acheive that. That right there should show there manufacturing abilities. No where near as much as the US.
2 IPC Total- It’s a game! If you go totally Historical, Italy will make I dunno 3 IPC’s a turn. The Axis are suppossed to have a chance.
Your lend lease to Italy is a bad Idea. Germany CANNOT afford to give Italy Crap. Why would any one want to be Italy and have to depend on the German players kindness while he is trying to slam Russia and defend France at the same time. The Allied lend lease thing is cool, but should be a NA not an automatic get. Again Convoy’s should have IPC worth.
3. Dude you can’t base any of your findings off of the original map. Throw it away for now. Japan can’t have less. They now will have 3 factories surrounding them plus one on Hawaii + a whole new Army to fight in the Chinese. Japan is aggressive enough with Previous Set up. There navy is Huge and an Nice army to boot, I won’t even talk about their AirForce, let me just say 2 Bombers.
If you use the Strategic Moves you will not need your Sharpie to draw on the trans Siberian Railway. But feel free to do whatever you feel is necessary to your map.
Set the map up so people can play a basic A&A game using Established Rules. Not every one is going to want to play a Fancy game that takes forever because of a thousand of your house rules. A game this big takes long enough.
I love that it is “they” now. Your not part of this discussion?
Yes, like previously stated a lend lease system should be put in place.
My suggestion:
Lend Lease
Axis
Germany may send up to 15 IPCs to Italy during Germany’s purchase phase.Allies
While the Soviet Union convoy box is Allied controlled. Britain may send up to 15 IPCs to the Soviet Union during Britain’s purchase phase.While the North Atlantic US convoy box is allied controlled the US may send up to 25 IPCs to Britain during US’s purchase phase.
my 2 cents
As stated before you have already made every ones mind up on the convoy thingy you got going on. So as you delete all of the convoy boxes, we will not have a choice because you have made it for us, as with roads and rail Most people play this game using the vast majority of the OOB rules when it applys a Pacific or Europe or AAR. Build the map around that crowd, Then make your juiced up version. If you have not played a game on the original map,(Posi’s) you need to before you start screwing with the mechanics of the map. You don’t know how too. If you have, what are you thinking? :roll:
Just remake the map, not the rules.
I love that it is “they” now. Your not part of this discussion?
It was a knee jerk reaction to the “Can you move Paris further south” getting no say.
ON the lend lease issue i don’t think it can be decided by “15 and 25 round numbers philosophy” but rather once the final IPC values are decided and those values are placed on the map… then you will have to look at the balance to address the problems with the Soviets or UK getting too easily into trouble.
The first thing is to get the basic parts of the variant down and then make an outline of all these little issues and address them each in turn.
first the template of units and costs and values
then any changes in movement and combat and non combat
technology
diplomacy
set up issues
scenarios
balancing issues ( lend lease, cheaper units for some nations, some starting technology etc)
Imp. Leader.
1 Go with already established unit costs, ie. tanks 5 IPC’s Fighters 10 IPC’s and so on
2.Movement and the sequences in each countries turn should be as they are in AAR.
3. Techs. I believe we already have a great pool of techs to use from, We just need to narrow it down to 10- 12 of them
4. Diplomacy- I like this part. This is where the game can get real interesting fast.
5. Set up issues. I believe we should use a Hybrid or almost exact copy from before. Most of the set up is from Europe and Pacific put together.
6. Scenarios. Hmm, like what. Germany didn’t stab Russia in the back and decided not to invade, or….
7. The game is already for the most part balanced. If you give the Axis a few more IPC’s to start with, the game will be fine.
All I am saying is this: ownership of a couple territories, a few Naval bases made no sense, and a few border changes is all that needed to be done with this map.
Well lets please be a bit civil folks. Bickering will lead to a dead end. Lets just put this issues aside and move forward.
I will edit those posts so it does not become a sword of damocles of future discourse…
CraigBee,
300 IPCs is too high but 328 is ok? What changed your mind?
Initialy I like the lower number. However, after reading DH’s suggestions, they look very close to adding AAE and AAP together. I fear with the lower number, we might see Germany and Russia battling on the easter front for a very low dollar amount. I am guessing that after populating the board, the higher number will give more appropriate incentive for the axis to aggressively attack.
Craig
Gentlemen,
I will no longer be wasting my free time arguing with someone as stubborn as myself.
Below is a link to an updated version of Positronica’s map prior to my joining of this thread. This map hopefully has achieved our original goal of correcting all the spelling errors and other suggested changes from pdel21, Craig A Yope, and others from page 6 and back of this thread.
**Be aware you may see a “file not found” warning that is just for the preview image. You can download the actual file by clicking on the file name link on the right.
Hopefully this is what DH and others are looking for.
It was not my intent to blow smoke up anyone’s anything, or to make you feel neglected or ignored. I truly joined this thread to get suggestions to improve this map beyond my own vision and despite DH’s claims I believe this map has gone far beyond my vision thanks to you.
I would like to thank all who has taken their valuable time to provide feedback for this project and apologize for making you endure the last few posts.
deepblue
Oh come on …. come back to the table. Things like this happen from time to time and it does you no good to take such a thing too personally.
wow, I’m out of it for a little while and… wow
Gentlemen,
I will no longer be wasting my free time arguing with someone as stubborn as myself.
Ahh some progress. :wink:
I am not trying to be a jerk here, this whole thing is just plain frustrating. Both of our stubborness has gotten us no where.
For that I am Sorry. That was how I was feeling.
I felt like I was back in the Army arguing with a green troop straight out of Boot. No experience- just the tools to do the job right. But the attitude of a 30 year veteran.
Some of the things done on this new map are great! Afrika is very cool looking, the Azores was a neat Idea. Fixing the port to port routes is good, sea zone around Phillipines is okay but can definatly live with it. US not controlling Brazil was a interesting Idea. I gots a few more but do I really need to go on.
In short, lets make a Basic Map, based off of Positronica’s design. Fix the few Clerical errors that we know of, and then use that map as a stepping stone to the next. Redo all of the above and any others I may have missed. Please leave Siagon, and feel free to put in a Berlin circle, I don’t care either way. I was more worried about the density after populated. the “old” Germany was crowded before it was cut in half by the cirlce.
Pleas don’t drop because of a few off the wall comments by me. I just didn’t feel like you cared at all for my input and a few other peoples as well.
SO in Shorter
I am Sorry I PiZZed You Off
DH
I do want you Deep Blue a part of this project. But your stubborness and mine, and anyone else out there, will get us no where fast.
IMHO if folks would like a juiced up map, lets do it, but make it a modern warfare map, or WWIII
OK good show DH. BTW im working on a modern version right now.
In my last post I did not mean to imply that I was dropping from the thread.
What I was trying to say with my pervious post was that I would no long make the rest of this thread endure my bickering with others. And to give the folks like DH who are just looking for minor corrections to the map, what they want. While trying to express that I truly would like everyone’s input on further improvements even if it is for or against my suggested ideas.
DH,
We have both proven that we are (I will use the word) “passionate” about our ideas.
Is the above map not what you’re looking for?
Not sure if I understand you correctly but the idea of starting over makes my stomach turn.
I would be happy to address any of your concerns about previous changes and I will add a Saigon city circle. (Someday you will need to tell me about your affection for Saigon.)
Imp,
I will lower Paris as well.
Paris will be lowered….
Thank you sir!
send them to hell. :-o
First of all thank you Deep blue. And yes I am Very Passionate about this project.:)
If nothing else could you please just make these changes if only long enough for me and others to down load it and save it to a disk.
Then continue on with your Hopped up version.
I just want a map with a AAR feel to it with some AAP and AAE input (CAP- Convoy boxes)
Saigon, This territory IMHO is a very useful territory,
1. it’s worth 3 IPC’s
2. Great place for Japan to build a IC, if not the best on the main land for japans 1st
3 Can benifit from Anchor in Malaya
4 Suitable location for IC thats not to close to Britain or China but not too far away at same time.
5 It’s a major Southeastern Asian city.
6 if not there then Northern part of F.I China. can benift from anchor and this is not Physically possible. Although on this map it is.
Roads and rails- A easy and non complicated way for INF. and Art to be able to move 2 spaces. They also give strategic value to other wise non valuable territories
Even if it’s just for me, a German Auto Bahn would be great.
Please take off Airbase in London, It allows SBR of germany. This was a concern with the sea zone and that was fixed but the issue arose again after this new airbase. Again if it is just for me.
For piece density reasons I don’t think a berlin circle is a good Idea, other then it saves berlin from seaborne assaults. good idea but german Berlin only came under 1 seaborne assault launched from the baltic in my games. Usually if the british want to attempt this the german player should see it coming and be able to prepare for it and or attack it.
Phillipines. The multi sea zones fits with this island chain, it is rather large, the largest on the map aside from madagascar, which has multiple sea zones around it. If you don’t like 3 zones bordering it cut down to 2, east and west and give 2 anchors and 1 airbase.
Keep all the other changes made
If you would like, even if only for me use my IPC for each territory. If you put Saigon in take away the added points from the Convoy’s i Bumped up.
Please if you do this I will give you a cookie :)
Again if it is just for me I really appreciate it, then we can use this as a Starting point for the juiced up map inteded for use with AARHE.
You do have good input keep it coming.
If anyone else has any suggestions about the map that doesn’t involve changing the mechanics but the prettyness of the map please chime in at anytime.
No i don’t want to start over, the map that is, the newest one will be perfect. Just adjust for ME please, then lets get the ball rolling on map version 1.3
OK
DH
I am not trying to sound selfish when I say Just for me by the way.
Just a observation- On the latest map updated#10 both halves of poland are German. This means 1 of 2 things.
Germany doesn’t hold up their end of the bargain in giving Russia a part of Poland. (Historical)
2 they have already committed to a Russian Front. No Diplomacy here.
Anyone else?
Yes, Barbarossa has commenced. It is “Julyish” 1941 on the eastern front.
This topic has been discussed at length. For this map I did not plan to add a diplomatic rule set (which in turn adds another layer of complexity).
@Deaths:
If anyone else has any suggestions about the map that doesn’t involve changing the mechanics but the prettyness of the map please chime in at anytime.
This seems to be in contradiction. I thought you wanted a basic map?
The game starts with everyone knowing who their opponents are. Classic AA style.
I believe that the idea you’re suggesting is more suited for a 1939 style map.
@Deaths:
Saigon, This territory IMHO is a very useful territory,
Added.
@Deaths:
Roads and rails- A easy and non complicated way for INF. and Art to be able to move 2 spaces. They also give strategic value to other wise non valuable territories
Will post a version with roads on it.
@Deaths:
For piece density reasons I don’t think a berlin circle is a good Idea
Be aware that I have removed Slovakia AND actually enlarged Germany. I printed it out when I was doing it and you can place 4 chips in Germany and the Berlin circle is just as big as the others.
@Deaths:
Phillipines. The multi sea zones fits with this island chain, it is rather large, the largest on the map aside from Madagascar
I made the Philippines one sea zone because on the AAE and AAP maps it is one sea zone. If you feel that it should have two what about splitting the Philippines in to two territories, this would ease my reservations about two SZs around it. Northern and southern Philippines, it actually would fit history as MacArthur had to fight his way across the islands from south to north.
I didn’t relize slovakia wasn’t there, Excellent
Thank you for Siagon, THANK You. I think you’ll be happier with it.
Thanks for thr roads!
Splitting Philipines is a good Idea.
Give 1 anchor in each and an air base in the north. IMO
I thought the Barborossa was discussed just lazy, :(
Thats fine, I can always House rule East Poland to Russia from Germany, for a more diplomatic game.
I was hoping for a pre Barborossa post Blitzkrieg map, but this will work just fine.
Ocean Color Change Request:
Please remove some red from the ocean to make it look more blue. I printed the Positronica map, and didn’t realize how purple looking the ocean was until it printed. Examining the original ocean texture, I see a plenty of red. I think if the red is toned down, the ocean will look more blue, which may be more attractive.
Craig
My Map is perfect color wise. Sometimes it is just better to pay someone else to do it.
