On our map we do not differentiate between Germany and Vichy they are both Axis and both fall under the umbrella of Germany for our game, just like in the current AA game.
Yes and the only thing im saying is Vichy and germany need to be seperate and not german controlled ( hence no money to germany). IN revised only southern france is german controlled along with the 2 upper african territories and NOT the entire african sub continent… IN revised Madagaskar is British as well and NOT Vichy.
I dont know how you can say its just like The “current AA game” bacause its not.
But its fine if its not accurate because its not a concern or at least thats what i gather from this.
Gentlemen,
It’s finally here, my first draft!
I believe to be as productive as possible we should focus our discussions. The draft posted below is to help us decide on land territory attributes, such as correct name, color, allegiance, borders, etc. Once we have agreed on this topic we can move to a different topic such as ocean squares, etc.
So try to control your ADD. :-D
When reviewing the map please consider both historical accuracy and game play.
The image has been reduced by 50% to allow for faster download times. Also, elements have been removed to help us focus on the task at hand.
I think the map looks awesome.
I had two questions:
will access through the great lakes be possable (historically Detroit moved a lot of shermans)?
this question is unrelated to the map but it was a setup question I was wondering about. You folks said that some areas were under German controll but were occupied mostly my Italians. So will the set up reflect this? Maybe having both German and Italian troops in the same starting territories?
P.S. I was wondering what will the dimensions of the map be when finished?
My first thoughts are WOW. Well done. Here are the errors I picked up at first glance:
1. Yucantan should be Yucatan
2. Romania could be called Rumania (not really picky on that one, some places refer to it as Romania, other Rumania during the War era)
3. Following territory names are missing:
Leningrad
Stalingrad
Calcutta
Peiping
Ceylon (not sure if we really want to name the island, it is something that Craig brought up as well before, it seems like a place you could go to).
4. What of the victory cities, I kind of liked the named cities that were on the map.
5. I posted the roundel of China as well, that would be nice touch (for example AA Pacific has it). There is some justification to include it since China, although controlled by USA, has a separate way of acquiring armies, it is played like a separate nation.
6. I’m not sure if this is the place for it, but Burma Road, Trans-Siberian and Trans-Continental railroads are still nice touches.
OK heres a few more things:
replace kashmir with Baluchistan… kashmir is much more north of india.
Manchuria was called Manchukuo in this period.
Tsinghai should be Koko nor
northern manchruia should be called Heiho
the empty 2 territory should be called Hopei
chahar should be called Hingan …chahar is south west of where you have it. Currently you got suiyuan in its position.
everything else looks good…
Yes, I agree with Imperious, the one to add is that Victory cities are put in, then Peiping can be one of those (in the Hopei territory).
Hsinking was the capital of Manchukuo which is in the Kirin province ( south of Heiho and Hingan)
thus its in what is labeled Manchuria. “Following the Mukden Incident, the Japanese Kwantung Army occupied Manchuria and established the puppet state of Manchukuo on February 18, 1932. Japan pressured China into recognising the independence of Manchukuo.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchukuo
Peiping is in Hopei
the capital was called Hsinking, Changchun is what the chinese used to call this city before 1932. the japanese renamed it Hsinking which translates to ‘new capital’
The map looks fantastic. I’m not one for 100% historical accuracy. I am more interested in a very playable, versatile map. This map, so far, looks like it delivers.
My only question is about the Sea Zones. They are currently unnumbered. I assume this is because the original draft was missing a couple SZ numbers & the black sea has now been divided… changing the order entirely. But just to be sure; the SZs will be numbered right?
Gentlemen,
Thanks for the input. It is all great advice.
Those who like the map thanks for saying so, now I know I am on the right track.
Some food for thought before I make the changes.
Access through the Great Lakes.
Well to be honest I have never thought of that. I am not sure if adding access to the lakes would improve the game. Group what do you think?
Map Dimensions
I was hoping to discuss this with the group in more detail later but just to give you an idea of what I am thinking.
At the minimum 3 feet by 6 feet, maybe a bit bigger.
Can’t believe I fat fingered Yucatan.
Well I had a fifty/fifty shot with Rumania/Romania.
Found this site that supports the “o†but I don’t care either way.
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Rumanian/Rumanian_vs_Romanian.html
Territory Names and VCs
I left off the victory cites/territory names (which are also the names of the VCs) for two reasons.
1. I thought it would help us focus on the territories. (Obviously I was wrong.)
2. I am reworking their Font and was not finished yet, but figured you wanted to see the map ASAP.
I was hoping we could hold off on the victory city topic until we are happy with the map itself.
Will add Ceylon. Nice catch never even noticed it.
China’s roundel
I have mixed feelings about adding China’s roundel. I have not played AAP so forgive my ignorance. They can acquire armies themselves? Please explain.
My only concern with this is, map consistency, if China why not France, Australia etc. My first reaction is to keep the roundels limited to the player nations. But this is not in stone.
The Roads and Rails
Currently I do not like the idea of having them. This is why,
Why just these? Europe was covered in rail and the Germans used them extensively. But they don’t have rail on the map. I think we are getting to granular with this.
I do like the idea of a strategic move, but may I suggest we borrow form Europe Engulfed and introduce a strategic non-combat move instead of having rail/road actually on the map.
If you like my (borrowed) idea we can work out the particulars. It is a simple idea that can be implemented easily.
But if you really want the rail/roads I will be happy to make a version with them on it if you would like.
Kashmir will be replaced.
Manchukuo was a former state in Manchuria and both the AA and AAP maps have it as Manchuria.
The only reference I have found to Koko Nor is that it is a lake within Tsinghai Province.
Please provide more info on Heiho, I was unable to find any reference to a land area with that name.
What empty territories are you referring to? The circle (which if you guys have not noticed represents city areas) area is for Peiping. I believe this is the correct spot?
I don’t see the second empty area.
Hopei is already on the map. Is it in the right spot?
Charar on our map is close to what I have found…Yes it is not an exact match but close.
Please provide info on Hingan.
Sea Zones
Yes, the sea zones will be numbered.
Other things
Is everyone happy with the remainder of the (land) map?
I know there were some concerns about Italy. Do you like its current holdings?
How about city circles?
Are there any other cities you would like to see have their own area like Tobruk. I am not referring to VCs, just cities that should have their own area. For instance Saigon, I removed it from the map because the border was incorrect, but if the group thinks it is important enough I could add it back using a circle area. Don’t suggest cities just because you like them or live there. Try to think of cities that had major battles but don’t warrant VC status. Maybe a Free (green) Chinese city? Thoughts?
No one noticed any additional game play issues with the territories?
Great, I will do my best to make these changes in a timely fashion. Please feel free to provide more info and/or suggestions as they come to you. After we finalize these changes I suggest we look at the oceans so I can start numbering the sea squares. (I am not looking forward to that.)
Thanks again to all for the feedback, keep it coming.
deepblue
deepblue,
The way China acquires armies is that they get 1 if the Burma Road is open, and they 1 infantry for each point they hold onto. So if Japan takes out a territory worth 1 IPC, then when China’s turn comes around again they recieve 1 less INF. This is also from AAP. I think the Burma Road definitely has it’s uses in the game, I not that interested in the rails, but I believe Burma Road is important if for nothing else to keep things consistent with AAP.
The roundel for China is there since it is in effect a separate nation, it is controlled by USA, and the USA player plays China, but it is a separate nation (at least in AAP). Since it is a different shade of green on the map, I thought it would be a neat touch, however, if the group is not in agreement, I can live with this.
I’m not sure the Great LAkes actually adds anything meaningful to the game. I understand that Shermans were shipped out from Detroit, but……
As for the size, 3 ft by 6 feet is perfect. 3Ft accomodates most plotters, so if someone happens to have one, then that would save a little money. Also, it would fit nicely on a relatively standard dining room table, with space around to roll die, and for each player to be comfortable.
I thought Peiping looked to be in correct spot based on other maps of China. The other empty is Calcutta in India.
Aside from these things, I think the map looks great.
Manchukuo was a former state in Manchuria and both the AA and AAP maps have it as Manchuria.
+++ They are wrong. I own 3 maps from this period. One made in 39, another in 1942, and a third is mostly complete except for the information on the date… but all of them say the same thing… I also owned a 24" globe (from 39)that also had it labeled as such and i spent hours looking at it… one of the things i remember was the different names ( It latter broke in 1991).
AH hill is frequently wrong on many things…AS you also know that madagaskarin revised is considered British rather than neutral vichy, While Tanganika territory is missing.
The only reference I have found to Koko Nor is that it is a lake within Tsinghai Province.
++++ it is a lake in the north east of this province, while Tsaidam (which is s similiar spelling as Tsinghai) is a swamp. You will notice that many towns in this province are listed with the suffex “nor” as in Kara nor, Shire nor, kyaring nor,and nging nor indicating they are part of this province.
Please provide more info on Heiho, I was unable to find any reference to a land area with that name.
+++++Heiho comprises of nearly the entire section of land between Soviet- Sino border in Manchukuo. The capital is also called Heiho
What empty territories are you referring to? The circle (which if you guys have not noticed represents city areas) area is for Peiping. I believe this is the correct spot?
I don’t see the second empty area.
++++ leningrad, Stalingrad, Ceylon, Sakhalin Islands ,and Peiping… thats 5
Hopei is already on the map. Is it in the right spot?
++++Hopei is where Peiping is going… its the same territory. Pieping is the major city in this territory and probably a VC.
Charar on our map is close to what I have found…Yes it is not an exact match but close.
+++++ well yea i guess…But Hingan was much more prosperious, while Chahar is basically a desert and not much of a territory. Using Hingan would justify the value, while some chinese guy who looked at it would laugh at using Chahar to represent this.
Please provide info on Hingan.
+++++ it has actually North and east Hingan ( two territories) comprising north west manchukuo.
Under AARHE we have these to represent what we consider important objectives , but this is based on revised…so some extrapolations will be necessary
with you map you have you have to add malta and tobruch.
Victory Cities
Total Victory: The winning team is the first to control every territory.
Major Victory: Axis wins if they control 45 VCP (Victory City Points). Allies win if they control 55 VCPs.
Minor Victory: Both sides bid the number of rounds that they want the game to last if they are the Axis. The team that bids the higher number of turns gets to play as the Axis. The game ends after that many rounds. The team controlling the majority of the VCPs at that time wins the game.
Germany: 18 (subtract 7 if Italy plays)
Berlin (6) Germany
Rome (5) Italy
Paris (2) Western Europe
Warsaw (2) Eastern Europe
Bucharest (2) Balkans
Kiev (1) Ukraine
Italy: 7 (optional nation)
Rome (5) Italy
Bucharest (2) Balkans
Japan: 15
Tokyo (6) Japan
Hsinking (2) Manchuria
Singapore (2) French Indo-China
Kuching (2) Borneo
Shanghai (1) Kwangtung
Batavia (1) East Indies
Manila (1) Philippines
Soviet Union: 18
Moscow (6) Russia
Stalingrad (4) Caucasus
Leningrad (3) Karelia
Novosibirsk (2) Novosibirsk
Archangel (1) Archangel
Almaty (1) Kazakh
Vladivostok (1) Buryatia
United Kingdom: 12
London (5) United Kingdom
Toronto (2) Eastern Canada
Cairo (1) Anglo-Egypt
Calcutta (1) India
Sydney (1) Australia
Tehran (1) Persia
Cape Town (1) South Africa
United States: 14
Washington (5) Eastern United States
Los Angeles (4) Western United States
Chicago (2) Central United States
Chungking (1) China
Ürümqi (1) Sinkiang
Rio de Janeiro (1) Brazil
Neutrals: 4
Ankara (2) Turkey
Madrid (2) Spain
Hey guys,
been checking in on this variant off and on, great to see it being worked on again. About the new map, I may have missed the post in recent days, but is the thought to still put the Saharan desert in as impassible again?
For Detroit, I think it would have to be at least 2 spaces worth of sea zones to get shipping to/from Detroit to the Atlantic and it appears that it is the same amount of land territories to move them overland and then onto ships. I don’t think it would be worth the change.
Just regarding the Madagascar thing, in my opinion, if it fell in november then it should go to England, though I do like the thought of it as a axis base with a couple subs off the coast at the start. I know that much was said about moving the date back a couple months but much of the world was drastically different then too. Still, even if no income came historically from Madagascar that doesn’t mean that there wasn’t potential for it. But it just seems best to make it English. (on a nit-picky note, and I’m not trying to argue this, just pointing it out, the wikipedia entry for the Madagascar battle does actually link to the same page that Imp. leader referenced and the entry seems to match pretty well to it, of course he may have been the one that added the link.)
what about bumping up romania by 1 or areas there to make up for the Madagascar revenue? I thought that there was massive oil reserves there at that time held by germany. If that is true, and the european front is not my area of expertise or anything, but 1-3 could be be valuable.
Regarding the pacific front, much of the push that corresponded to pearl harbor was to indonesia areas and the resourses there… places like java, borneo, celebes, sumatra, brunei could all go up a bit too as far as value… if that helps with balance.
just thoughts, if they help great, if not no worries…
I am not saying madagaskar should be british… the battle came latter after this game begins… however all Vichy territories aside from Morroco, upper Algeria and Tunisia should not be colored german and should be either neutral (Vichy) or british controlled. Most of the central formerly Vichy french territories became free french/ british as per revised, while under no circumstances should any german pieces be able to move into Vichy (with the 3 exceptions and southern france).
Under no circumstances does these Vichy neutrals contribute to german economy.I think they are because theybare the same color and people now say “gee i didnt know germany had all that”… only they are right because they didnt… except of course in only this map.
These are items that are way too important to even begin playing such a game… you might as well make greenland part of germany because denmarck is german occupied
and iceland is part of norway and thats german occupied… its the same analogy
fallen empires do not transfer the colonies as part of the conquest. nations have to fight and conquer them.
US occupied Greenland
Britian occupied Iceland and all but 3 of Frances former colonies.
Some suggestions;
Change the colour of Algeria, Niger, French West Africa, West Africa and Madagascar into either British (free French) or Vichy Neutral.
Divide Morocco into three spaces. Small part of the top into Spanish Morocco and the lower half into Rio the Oro. Make them both Spanish Neutral controlled.
Add Portugal
Gilbert Islands should be British not American I think.
Make Mexico and Peru American or make Brazil also Neutral. All three declared war in 1942, and Brazil was by far the latest of the three.
Give Sumatra more IP value, the Dutch East Indies made up for over 75% of Japans oil reserves so these territories deserve some more value.
Several people have asked about the Sahara. If the group likes what I have come up with I will add it to the next draft.
Thats a great idea and will really make things more realistic. I hope you do this.
Excellent deepblue, please add.
