Out of the Box 2nd Edition League Discussion

gamerman01 · Jan 18, 2025, 5:58 AM

This thread is for league player discussion of Out of the Box 2nd Edition ONLY

crockett36 · Jan 18, 2025, 2:38 PM

@simon33 said in League General Discussion Thread:

Since its the time in the year for reviewing rules, can I suggest we change this one to allow land units on empty territories, really only an issue for New Guinea.

The nation placing a unit in a territory or sea zone must have started with a unit in said territory or sea zone prior to placing the bid.
Reason for change is that pretty much every player accepts the bid and so does Triple-A. So why not make the standard rules what is normally practiced?

Let me jump on this post. Thank you, Simon. Is there a reason we don’t take January to adjust the rules for OOB slightly? People say it’s stale or boring, so why not change it? I’ve said this before (International Federation of Axis & Allies Players) but since we are the aforementioned, may I suggest the rule of 3. Per year only one rulebook change, one adjustment to bid, one adjustment to a unit. You don’t have to make all three changes, but you can.

I would personally suggest the top 3-5 players in the OOB bracket make the adjustments. I would also ask that they come up with an option bid number and placement. That can serve as an optional guardrail or a base for other players. Lastly, I would suggest they have one of the tripleA guys in the discussion.

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Arthur Bomber Harris · Jan 18, 2025, 2:38 PM

@crockett36 i would like the minimum number of rule changes to keep OOB still OOB. A bid was obviously necessary, and then we agreed it was dull to allow 10 inf in Paris as the starting units so required the 1 unit per territory rule.

I do think we now have enough data from the past years to estimate the “fair” bid based on Elo-adjusted win percentages. Maybe I will dig into that data and see if I can come up with a model.

crockett36 · Jan 18, 2025, 2:47 PM

I would just push back and say that’s a minor adjustments can be minor adjusted back. This ad flavor and we might get rid of some silliness in the game. There are five or six rules that are just plain insulting to people’s intelligence as a for instance, the fact that Germany can go into an Italian East Poland and still receive the Russian bonus.

crockett36 · Jan 18, 2025, 2:48 PM

@crockett36 yeah, the bit could be lowered if we got rid of a few of these rules. For intensive left lease were really a thing

crockett36 · Jan 18, 2025, 2:51 PM

@crockett36 sorry dictation The bid would not have to be so high if you got rid of a few of these rules. Or adjusted the rules for instance, if the bonuses for Germany were three instead of five, that would make a huge difference.

Arthur Bomber Harris · Jan 18, 2025, 3:15 PM

@crockett36 we have a “balance mod” already. People are free to have their own house rules in oob league matches, but you won’t find many oppenents who find agreeable changes. We have had a couple decades of proposals on this forum and nothing gains traction.

gamerman01 · Jan 18, 2025, 4:40 PM

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris is speaking succinctly, and speaking for most of us,

We want to preserve the base ruleset as much as we can and if a player wants some modification and the other doesn’t, then the default is the actual out of the box rules. This has been agreed upon as a higher priority, so that OOB players interested in league can jump right in, and current or departing league players can seamlessly play OOB outside the league.

Bidding definitely creates the opportunity for more chaos and cheese, and of course any bid is a modification of the game start, but it is not changing any mechanics or rules of play after game start. If a player doesn’t like 40+ bids, he should propose alternatives to his opponent, who will often be agreeable.

This is where you can say, hey, let’s reduce German NO’s from 5 to 3 and then the bidding can be lower. In my latest game, after bidding started I realized I wanted to know where his bid was going to be, so I revealed mine and asked if he’d reveal his. Then I knew I wasn’t going to face a starting placement I wouldn’t like. So you can get creative with your opponent, but when you don’t agree, out of box rules are your fallback.

The default league rules are not effectively a restriction or a hindrance, they are a safeguard that protects players from being expected to play something other than out of the box, when they just want to play out of the box.

Pretty much total freedom is given to two players who want to doctor up any crazy modifications of out of the box they want, and the game will still be counted in out of the box league play, which is very lenient. Conceivably even a small band of players could be playing in OOB league play with all their unconventional rules, but as soon as they want to play someone else in the league who doesn’t want those rules, the league rules protect the “normal” player.

Booper · Jan 18, 2025, 7:38 PM

@gamerman01

Agree, this is the jumping in point for new online players, so adhering to the standard rules as much as reasonably possible to make a “fair” game will make the transition easier. Plus the tactics will translate directly to improve over the board play. I think the current bid mechanics do that well.

BM and PTV are the variants to explore rule changes, and more dramatic map/rule changes respectively.

crockett36 · Feb 5, 2025, 1:48 AM

Now I am speaking to players who find this after February 3, 25.

Yes, there are several flaws in this game. You are not the first to discover them. Without adjusting the game, the Axis powers have a huge advantage. The players here have chosen to keep the out of box rules not because they are okay with this or some of the silliness in the game, but because it is a great launching point. It is translatable for you.

There is a community of players who have made significant changes and fixes to the game. it is called Balanced Mod 4. Do not expect the same strategies to win in that game as win in your local games. Also, be aware, it not quite balanced. The Axis powers still win most of the time.

For a major modification of the game done by people who love it and wanted to adjust the map, check out Path to Victory. Again, you will have to adjust your tactics and strategy to be success. The Axis powers still have an advantage.

Adjustments:
Less and less games of out of box are played. This community accepts this. I disagree. When you play, and you want to eliminate some of the silliness, ask the opponent for crockett’s mod.

You may never load a transport in a hostile sea zone.
A nation not at war may not convoy or disrupt lend-lease.
If the Germans step into Russian territory conquered by the Italians, they may not receive the trade with Russia bonus.

Fixes:
The bid here is something that was created by brilliant people who are very successful. However, many of them have moved on to the other mods and that speaks to a deficiency in their solution. The bid rules are also somewhat arbitrary. And unfortunately, the bids can radically disrupt the turn one dance that the designer has intended. In January, you may advocate for adjusting the league rules. Ask for crockett’s mod.

Foreign units do not effect lend-lease for Russia.
You may not rob a nation’s capital of all of its money unless you surround the capital. If the capital is not surrounded, you receive only the territory value of the capital.

Flavor:
Oddly enough, most players here do not like technology. I find this very ahistorical. If you agree, I suggest asking for this technology rule when you play:

Five IPCs buys you a token for technology. Each of those tokens represents a lab that is racing to affect the war. A roll of 6 is a success. Its bonus abilities are immediately applied to all units on the board. The other tokens are not lost but continue to work diligently to help their side win.

Hopefully, in five or fifty years these minor and easily understood adjustments may breathe new life into out of box and may be universally accepted as an adjustment or fix or flavoring of the game for play here or even be in implemented in a new release of the game by its producer.

mikawagunichi · Feb 5, 2025, 1:48 AM

@crockett36 Just wanted to note that the bid goes to the Axis in PTV.

crockett36 · Feb 5, 2025, 1:30 PM

@mikawagunichi great to know. what are the bids on average?

mikawagunichi · Feb 5, 2025, 2:08 PM

@crockett36 Since the start of 2024, the average bid has been a bit over 10.

crockett36 · Feb 6, 2025, 4:13 PM

@mikawagunichi And in your opinion, what is the optimal choice and placement. I am always looking out for new players.

That was the magic of young grasshopper. He gave people a script, a meta, a plan. I haven’t gone to military college, but I’m betting they go over various tactics in a variety of terrains that amounts to scripts given unit composition.

mikawagunichi · Feb 6, 2025, 4:13 PM

@crockett36 I wouldn’t say there’s a total consensus on that but a few popular ones are:

Some extra inf for the initial France and Yunnan attacks
A couple u-boats for G1 naval attacks
TT to Jap Carolines fleet / marine next to one of the CA or BBs
Italian TT / marine

Depends on the exact bid, 11-12 are fairly common as well.

crockett36 · Feb 6, 2025, 11:59 PM

@mikawagunichi thank you. very helpful.

Caesar1 · Feb 23, 2025, 12:46 AM

Anyone knows where to find the 2024 results?

gamerman01 · Feb 23, 2025, 6:18 AM

Starting 1/1/24 results were no longer put in the old format, but are in the new ELO spreadsheet along with all prior results to the beginning of the history of G40

If you want to see 2024 results in the new rankings board, you can look at “games finished last year” to see how many games a player finished last year.

Very powerful, in the results tab you can simply enter a player’s name or partial name in the colored box at the top, and it will automatically filter that players results, all of them since 2012, and details on who they played, what side they took, wins and losses, and bidding.

If you have any follow up questions, please don’t hesitate

gamerman01 · Feb 23, 2025, 6:19 AM

The link to the new spreadsheet is towards the top of the 2025 league rules, the first pinned thread in league play. I think that might be what you’re asking

Caesar1 · Feb 23, 2025, 6:02 PM

@gamerman01 Thanks a lot! However, the pink box doesen’t work on chrome… Or maybe I miss something…?

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