AARHE: Rule files

1a)
our idea was to include submarines and surface raiders right?

hence I didn’t include capital ships (larger and slower)

to represent German “merchart raiders” we could include Transport instead of Destroyer
then maybe for every German Submarine or Transport ?

if its realistic to include capital ships (please describe)
then maybe we won’t need to say submarines but just for every German naval unit (except Transport) ?

yes every ship that can fight is a surface raider potentially. of course no transports.

1b)
yes ok, it’ll be simpler

yes ok, but as mentioned I think “1 land unit” won’t help USSR except in early game

Its a token bit of holding back for garrison duty. Germany wasted lots of resources protecting and finding enemies when they could be on the front lines , partially due to the resistance. This should include the balkans but it would be too harsh on the Italians who have basically nothing to start.

Phase 4: Conduct Combat
lets discuss air units and air missions first
(land and naval combat sequence later)

Air units
in your 112508 file you no longer have AARHE’s
a) land units hits can’t be allocated on enemy air units
b) friendly air units in excess of friendly land units fight at combat value of 1
yeah ok, its simpler and closer to OOB

yes more like OOB

we just say air units hits must be allocated against air units first
(hopefully a basic and consistent system across both land and naval combat)

Dogfights
you proposed these values
fighter = 3
bomber = 1
I think fighter should be 2

the values are already in the rules latter on in the file ( dogfight values)

Anti-aircraft
you proposed an auto kill 1 air unit for every 6 air units
you also ask the player to do this lining up thing
and that only one AA fire

OOB is too powerful
your proposal made it weaker, but OOB’s unlimited fire of AA gun remains
your proposal lets defender choose casualty (albeit before dice) but this still allows bombers to never die, but this was the issue which resulted in Revised AA rules vs. Classic AA rules

so I propose a simple rule, from some variant (world at war?)
each AA gun fire against up to 3 air units
still targetted
still hit on a 1
still $5

OK then a cap of 3 rolls per AA gun, hit on one. fine.

Counter Air
you proposed no no changes

Strategic Bombing Raid
you proposed defending air units fight at 2 and attacking escorts fight at 1, why?
I proposed only the fighters dogfight

SBR raid is one round and dogfights can be multiple rounds. The pre SBR dogfight is not meant to chew up planes. SOI we just keep the OOB from AAE.

you proposed attacker can’t bring more escorts than bombers, why?
you proposed defender can’t use more air units then total attacking air units, why?
I don’t think these limits are realistic, when enemy has a larger air force they should be able to hurt you

It wipes out small nations and does not give them a chance to fight or use these strategies. I want the air combat to be not bloody as before.

Ground Interdiction
your proposed rule’s refers to “combat reinforcements”
AARHE doesn’t have combat reinforcements since a long while back
we only have non-combat reinforcements

Yes this is stripped down. They must be adjacent in order to participate.

The rules no longer have “NC reinforcements” but they do have strategic redeployment.

Please in the future just copy and paste the exact wording of the new text we are covering at each phase like we were doing in the beginning. use only the file i provided that we were working from. Section by section. I dont know where your dealing with because some of the ideas you posted are in different places.

Air units
your text
Land Combat: Air Units
When both sides have air units present air units fight at air combat values. Aerial combat occurs and air units do not attack land units. Hits must be allocated on other air units before transport plane.

yes more like OOB
but keep AARHE’s rule of dogfight hits allocated on air units first right?

proposed text
Air Units
When both sides have air units present air units fight at air combat values. The hits must be allocated on air units first. Fighters fight at 2 and bombers fight at 1.

ok good. ill go with that.

Dogfights
your text
Dogfights
When planes fight in land battles they now are rolling against each other and allocating other air units as hits before land units can be hit. AS such they have different dogfight values as follows:
Fighters: 3
Fighter-Bomber: 2 ( optional unit)
Bomber: 1
Heavy Bomber: 2 (technology upgrade)
Jet fighters: 4 (technology upgrade)

the values I posted were what you had
I am saying I think fighter should be @ 2 or it’ll be bloody
no proposed text
closing this heading as discussed, “air units” heading and “dogfight” heading combined into one small heading

ok fighters are at 2, but fighter bombers are at 1 now.

Antiaircraft
your text
Anti-Air
Each starting factory comes with 1 AA gun and is rolled as follows: count the number of air units flying over and for every 6 air units allocate on hit by lining up the air units and the die roll destroys the unit in the sequence. If you have less than 6 air units, then follow the same procedure, except you need to roll the quantity of planes or less to score a hit. Example: Germany flies 3 fighters over London, so UK player needs to roll 3 or less to hit. Only one AA roll for all the air units.

yep like OOB but just cap of 3 rolls per AA gun
of course we keep the old AARHE rule of not shooting at over flying units

proposed text
Antiaircraft
Air units are only subject to antiaircraft fire at the territory they are attacking. Roll one die against each attacking air unit. You may only roll up to 3 dice per Antiaircraft gun.

ok i agree. fine.

Strategic Bombing Raid
your text
Strategic Bombing Run (SBR)
Bomber may perform SBR against a hostile territory. During SBR attacks the defending player can bring in planes to fight against bombers defending at a 2. The attacker can bring in escorts to escort his bombers and they attack at 1. The maximum number of defending planes cannot exceed the total number of attacking air units including bombers. Only one round of air combat occurs prior to SBR rolls. The attacker can not bring in more escorts than bombers. Note: The AA gun rolls only against the bombers and not against the escorting fighters. The surviving bombers roll 1D6 which reduces the IPC of the player immediately.

Quote
SBR raid is one round and dogfights can be multiple rounds. The pre SBR dogfight is not meant to chew up planes. SOI we just keep the OOB from AAE.
hehe your system is not quite as simple as AAE/AAP
the only bit you took from AAE/AAP is the 2 and 1 combat values

OK look at the example where a nation with 1 bomber wants to bomb and has just 1-2 fighters and the other side has 6 fighters…well you can see that the attackers mission will result in failure, which means that the poor nation cant use this strategy. I want anybody to use the SBR at any time regardless of their position. This is compensation for our own escort/ interceptor rules we now use.

l

proposed text
Strategic Bombing Run (SBR)
Bomber may perform SBR against any enemy territory. Attacker may send fighters as escorts. Defender may send fighters in the territory to defend. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualties. Defending fighters fight at 2. Attacking fighters fight at 1. Remove causalities. Each surviving bomber roll a die and territory income is reduced by that many IPCs during the next collect income phase.

yes good.

Counter Air (CA)
I am still thining about this
want simplicity, consistency

Ground Interdiction
I am still thinking about this
want simplicity, consistency

in the first case its like an SBR attack but with no bombers. your goal is to kill planes. Attacker at 1, defender at 2
this is a good rule.

In the second case adjacent fighters can assist an attacked territory. fighting at air combat values

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your proposed rule’s refers to “combat reinforcements”
AARHE doesn’t have combat reinforcements since a long while back
we only have non-combat reinforcements
Quote
Yes this is stripped down. They must be adjacent in order to participate.
The rules no longer have “NC reinforcements” but they do have strategic redeployment.
the stripped down part I think you are referring to phase 3: “Air Reinforcement”
Non-combat Reinforcement is in phase 5 and for land units

yes I did notice your 112508 file did not have the “Reinforcement” rule in phase 5 and only had “Strategic Redeployment” (SR)
SR has previously been an optional rule due to complexity
I wouldn’t agree to have it as a standard rule in the current form, let your idea of putting in your unused movement point idea into SR.

Its a great idea and its the only compensation left for the non- inclusion of the “armor moving one space, can use the second MP to retreat in NCM” we got rid of that idea because you felt is was too gamey, but this is a great idea.

regardless, in their current form SR is not a replacement for “Reinforcement” in phase 5
Reinforcement addresses a very different issue
it is due to defender retreat, making defending units under attack can move but untouched defending units may not…hence untouched defending units should be able to relocate

SR points can allocate units that just were in combat to allow the to retreat. SO thats the way we fit in the game the idea of greater movement. I am trying to fix the idea that the defender retreats and leaves the attacker exposed for counterattack.

Air Missions overall heading
your text
Air Missions
Each air unit can only perform one air mission per turn. It may not perform normal combat in the same turn. Air missions are declared with normal combat moves. Air missions are resolved before normal combats and before Defensive Air Support air units arrive.

adjustment to AAE/AAP system as you wish
defending air units cannot participate in normal combat

except for adjacent defending air can assist in air defense.

proposed text
Air Missions
Each air unit can only perform one air mission per turn. Air units performing air missions and air units defending against air missions may not participate in other combat this turn. Defending air units may retreat if territory control is lost. Air missions are resolved before normal combats and before Air Reinforcement units arrive.

I am not clear on the last sentence. I think your saying the active player performs all air missions first, while some of these types of mission require the defender to make decisions, so its not a proper thing to say the passive player cant allocate his planes for defensive missions like Air reinforcement or SBR interceptions.

Strategic Bombing Raid
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OK look at the example where a nation with 1 bomber wants to bomb and has just 1-2 fighters and the other side has 6 fighters…well you can see that the attackers mission will result in failure
but thats the thing, realistically if your enemy has superior air force and you insist on bombing them…you are simply taking on great risks

your option should be to hit the less guarded territories, or get rockets

Thats not the option, If a nation only has one factory, then the poor nations cant attack the swarm of fighters. Thats not play balance. I want to encourage players to have the SAME ACCESS to all strategies, because they all dont start with large air forces. IN the war historically UK didnt have the air forces as Germany but still managed to bomb Berlin.

The game must reflect this. And Rockets are not a viable option for the opening period of the game.

Counter Air
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in the first case its like an SBR attack but with no bombers. your goal is to kill planes. Attacker at 1, defender at 2
this is a good rule.
yeah no bombers because they are much slower
and unlike SBR there are no bombers to protect
so I think fighters of both side should be fighting at 2

NO defending are at 2 because they dont need to worry about fuel, escorts have limited time to escort before they need to fly back. The OOB rule got it correct, plus its a compromise from your issue against limiting the defense.

proposed text
Counter Air (CA)
Fighter may perform CA against any enemy territory. Defender must send at least the same number of air units in the territory to defend. They may not perform Air Reinforcement this turn. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualties. Fighters fight at 2. Bombers fight at 1.

I think this would work i note that ONLY in this case both attacker and defender fighters are at 2. I think it should also be at 1 and 2 like in SBR, but in this case the attacker CAN outnumber the defender in total planes.  I am right think about it carefully.

Also, The sentence underlined makes no sence to me.

keep it like this:

Defensive Air Support Mission (DAS)
During your enemies’ turn your air units may move to assist your land units defending in adjacent combat situations. DAS are declared after all combat moves are declared and before resolving any combat. DAS may not be performed during USSR player’s special opening turn.

Counter Air Mission (CA)
Air units may make an interdiction attack against air units in a hostile territory. One cycle of aerial combat occurs between your air units and hostile air units at dog fighting values. AA guns fire before this aerial combat. Your air units must retreat to the original territory. The defender may not use air units in a territory targeted by CA for Defensive Air Support up to the number of planes that the attacker brought in to perform CA mission.

Strategic Bombing Run (SBR)
Bomber may perform SBR against a hostile territory. During SBR attacks the defending player can bring in planes to fight against bombers defending at a 2. The attacker can bring in escorts to escort his bombers and they attack at 1. The maximum number of defending planes cannot exceed the total number of attacking air units including bombers. Only one round of air combat occurs prior to SBR rolls. The attacker can not bring in more escorts than bombers. Note: The AA gun rolls only against the bombers and not against the escorting fighters. The surviving bombers roll 1D6 which reduces the IPC of the player immediately.

Ground Interdiction Mission (GI)
Bomber may make an interdiction attack against land units in a hostile territory. You may bring other air units besides bomber as escorts. AA guns fire before this aerial combat. One cycle of aerial combat occurs between your air units and defending air units at dog fighting values. If a bomber survives it may roll for ground interdiction with die value equal to number of land units performing combat reinforcements now prevented from moving.

maybe the rule doesn’t make sense and should be removed
should it prevent non-combat reinforcement, or should it prevent retreat, or should it require total air superiority
this kind of rule has only appeared in hex games anyway right?

The rule prevents the existing units from moving ON THEIR TURN. It makes no claim as to units moving into and or thru the territory. Its very simple and effective use of suppression to prevent forces from advancing. its fine as it is.

This is the original AA rule that we are using.

Fighter Escorts and Interceptors
Fighters can participate in strategic bombing raids. Attacking fighters may escort and protect the bombers, and they can originate from any territory, range permitting. Any or all defending fighters based in a territory that is strategically bombed can participate in the defense of the industrial complex. The number of fighters that will defend is decided after the attacker’s Combat Movement phase is completed and before the Combat phase begins.
After antiaircraft fire is resolved against the attacking air units, if there are any defending fighters an air battle occurs between the attacking and defending air units. This combat is resolved in the same way as a normal combat, with a few exceptions. The fighters have an attack value of 1 and a defense value of 2, and the bombers have no attack value. In addition, the combat lasts for only one round. After the battle, any surviving bombers proceed to carry out the raid as normal.
Fighters participating as either an escort or a defender cannot participate in other battles during that turn. Defending interceptors must return to their original territory. If that territory is captured, the fighters may move one space to land in a friendly territory or on a friendly aircraft carrier. This movement occurs after all of the attacker’s combats have been resolved and before the attackers

Strategic Bombing Raid
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Thats not the option, If a nation only has one factory, then the poor nations cant attack the swarm of fighters.
note in AARHE you bomb the territory to destroy income
we also had a rule (contributed by switch) where you bomb the industrial complex to destroy production capacity

yes and thats an issue for the next version for AA50HE. If you want to do it now thats fine. But the real point is we want to give equal opportunity for anybody even with one bomber to bomb the enemy and not get wiped out.

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IN the war historically UK didnt have the air forces as Germany but still managed to bomb Berlin.
we can think of why and model that
it just seems artifical to limit the size of the escort fleet or intercept fleet

Yes but its also not realistic to have a situation where the entire bomber force is wiped out because the other guy has 2-3 more planes. If you just got one bomber and can never build another due to the costs it just closes off the strategy for only richer nations, but historically UK bombed Berlin in 1940 and they had a much smaller air force….so its got to be allowed somehow.

so UK can bomb without losing too much
maybe its due to the length of the dogfight during an SBR being shorter than normal combat
in this case to be realistic we reduce the combat values

0 for escort fighters
1 for intercept fighters

Lowering the value to Zero im afraid is not good enough, we should just limit the quantities. its got to be 1-2 because thats the minimum, plus its easy to remember the old AAE rule.

Counter Air
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I think this would work i note that ONLY in this case both attacker and defender fighters are at 2.

yes only in CA
attacking fighters in SBR are handicapped as they are escorting the bombers
but in CA attacking fighters are much closer to equal footing

ok lets try that. lets see the scripting…

Quote
Defender must send at least the same number of air units in the territory to defend.They may not perform Air Reinforcement this turn.
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Also, The sentence underlined makes no sence to me.
same as before just worded differently
CA missions lets you attack and tie down defending air units

so if attacker sends 3 fighters, at least the same number of defending air units in the territory are tied down
if the defender has more than 3 air units in the territory he can send them to defend too if he wants

but you write the name MUST… thats not the way to write it out. One is rather limited in CA from performing other missions as the defender unless you have extra planes than the attacker.

Quote
keep it like this:
Defensive Air Support Mission (DAS)…
DAS rule is “Close Air Support” in reality, which is just normal combat in the game
hence we don’t have DAS anymore

what we do have is “Air Reinforcement” in phase 3: combat move
come on, this was only like a week or 2 ago

yes old terminology. ok CAS

Ground Interdiction

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The rule prevents the existing units from moving ON THEIR TURN. It makes no claim as to units moving into and or thru the territory. Its very simple and effective use of suppression to prevent forces from advancing. its fine as it is.
just saying “its fine as it is” doesn’t add weight to your argument
hopefully you can reply to my concerns directly

I’ve only seen this kind of rule in hex games (squad level) and games with turns representing short time periods
applying it to axis and allies revised…
it doesn’t make sense for entire armies to be pinned by bombers
it doesn’t make sense for bombers to remain in enemy territory for 6 months

Its not that the bombers are “hovering” for 6 months, its that they are blowing the crap out of railroads, trains, roads,transportation centers…anything that effects movement to other fronts. Not to look at thing so literally. Its just the same idea as SBR except the damage is infrastructure thats effects transportation. It can be done at a strategic or tactical level.

Its just air suppression and total control of the sky. At the Bulge the Germans had no air and the tactic stopped the armor dead in its tracks from forward movement to the Meuse.

I guess its the same idea from AA D-Day…well sort of.

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Fighter Escorts and Interceptors
Defending interceptors must return to their original territory.
the time frame in AARHE is that air missions are resolved before normal combats,
air missions occur before Air Reinforcement or DAS units arrive

well just write the mission out is very short sequence like you did before, but real short. The way it was written was not clear.

Strategic Bombing Raid
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IL: Thats not the option, If a nation only has one factory, then the poor nations cant attack the swarm of fighters.
tekkyy: note in AARHE you bomb the territory to destroy income
we also had a rule (contributed by switch) where you bomb the industrial complex to destroy production capacity
IL: yes and thats an issue for the next version for AA50HE. If you want to do it now thats fine. But the real point is we want to give equal opportunity for anybody even with one bomber to bomb the enemy and not get wiped out.
no I was reminding you that SBR is performed on a territory not industrial complex in AARHE
ie. you can SBR Western Europe
this is regarding “nation only has one factory”

my stance isn’t to create equal opportunity
as I said before, if a player wants to suicide (inferior airforce performing SBR against superior airforce) its their choice to do so

losses during an SBR are perfectly normal
recall the comparison between the (A) Blitz, (B) V1 rockets, and © Allies strategic bombing campaign
(B) was much more cost effective, but it is not to say (A) or © is stupid
in (A), Germany vs UK, Germany can afford the losses
in ©, US+UK vs Germany, US+UK can afford the losses

OK script the rule, but just don’t use that typical language where you have to read the thing 10 times to understand it.

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Yes but its also not realistic to have a situation where the entire bomber force is wiped out because the other guy has 2-3 more planes.
its realistic if your 1 bomber division was outnumbered by the enemies’ 2-3 fighter divisions

its just suicide, the general wouldn’t have ordered such a move
solution below

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but historically UK bombed Berlin in 1940 and they had a much smaller air force….so its got to be allowed somehow.
here we are talking about scale and damage that are orders of magnitude smaller
solution below

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Lowering the value to Zero im afraid is not good enough, we should just limit the quantities. its got to be 1-2 because thats the minimum, plus its easy to remember the old AAE rule.
recall an old AARHE rule, where you can perform SBR at 50% effectiveness
we could use this rule, call it Night Bombing or something
we then limit bomber:escort and bomber:interceptor ratio to 1:2 as you wished

During night bombing their is no fighter defense, so i guess thats the key to allow the equal opportunity. So the SBR must be declared as Day ( which allows unlimited fighter defense) or night which is 50% effective and NO fighter defense.

ok done.

Counter Air
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ok lets try that. lets see the scripting…

Counter Air (CA)
Fighter may perform CA against any enemy territory. Defender selects at least the same number of air units in the territory to fight. The selected air units may not perform Air Reinforcement this turn. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualties. Fighters fight at 2. Bombers fight at 1. Attacking fighters must retreat to the original territory in Non-combat Move phase.

this will work. add it.

Ground Interdiction
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Its not that the bombers are “hovering” for 6 months, its that they are blowing the crap out of railroads, trains, roads,transportation centers…anything that effects movement to other fronts.
ok we could keep it
but regardless I don’t agree with
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The rule prevents the existing units from moving ON THEIR TURN.
it should be preventing movement of enemy land units ON YOUR TURN
ie. “Reinforcement” during phase 5: Non-combat Move

Interdiction:

Procedure:
Bombers are designated to specific territories. A token is placed and it remains in the territory till your next turn. If during the enemy turn he moves units in or out or traces SR thru the territory, then a roll occurs as per the rules.

Quote
well just write the mission out is very short sequence like you did before, but real short. The way it was written was not clear.

combat move:
1. active players declare combat moves and air missions
2. passive players declare air reinforcement (because X attacking CA units prevents X defending units from performing air reinforcement)

conduct combat:
1. resolve air missions (eg. SBR)
2. resolve normal combat

I am also trying to write it short
hence I just said
Air missions are resolved before normal combats and before Air Reinforcement units arrive.
it could be written differently of course

ok thats fine.

Strategic Bombing Raid

Quote from: Imperious Leader on February 12, 2009, 07:20:14 pm
During night bombing their is no fighter defense, so i guess thats the key to allow the equal opportunity. So the SBR must be declared as Day ( which allows unlimited fighter defense) or night which is 50% effective and NO fighter defense.

ok done.

Strategic Bombing Run (SBR)
Bomber may perform SBR against any enemy territory. Attacker may send fighters as escorts. Defender may select fighters in the territory to defend. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualties. Defending fighters fight at 2. Attacking fighters fight at 1. Remove causalities. Each surviving bomber roll a die and territory income is reduced by that many IPCs during the next collect income phase.

Night Bombing
Bomber may perform Night Bombing against any enemy territory. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal. Each bomber roll a die and territory income is reduced by 50% of die value rounded down, during the next collect income phase.

on this last part Night bombing needs a sentence like: " no enemy fighters can intercept night bombers and no aerial combat occurs if night bombing is chosen"

Ground Interdiction

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Procedure:
Bombers are designated to specific territories. A token is placed and it remains in the territory till your next turn. If during the enemy turn he moves units in or out or traces SR thru the territory, then a roll occurs as per the rules.
give the full rule, elaborate “a roll occurs as per the rules”

if its like each unit roll to see if the movement was prevented
then it only makes sense for a hex map where a bomber bombs a choke point (a hex cell) while enemy units try to move through

just a while ago you were saying its not bombing the territory for 6 months
rather it just destroyed some roads and rails

don’t rush it
spend some time to think about:

*whether you want to model the bomber actively interdicting (bomb and pin enemy), or passively interdicting (bomb roads and rails)

Well then in the version of AA50HE this will be most definatly the option because the SBR of factories also effects of SR capacity of the nation.

WE need to make the interdiction a viable but not disastrous form of combat. Id prefer each bomber prevents X number of units from movement freely into or out of the territory. Its definatly something that should be included. Id like to keep it very similar to AA D-Day.

I know you don’t like it but draft something you would go with if included as optional rules.

Ground Interdiction (GI)
Bomber may perform GI against any enemy territory. [Attacker may send fighters as escorts. Defender may select fighters in the territory to defend.] Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualties. [Defending fighters fight at 2. Attacking fighters fight at 1.] Remove causalities. Each surviving bomber roll a die. Defender select a number of land units equal to the die value. They are unable to [Retreat or] perform Reinforcement this turn.

This could be a one round dogfight. ok so one bomber can prevent up to 6 units from moving OUT of territory or using the territory for Strategic redeployment. Sometimes it makes a difference because you dont have say 6 units in the territory, but you do need to move units thru the territory to another territory ( say from france to poland via Germany)

ok then lets keep it as you scripted. lets move on to next section.