AARHE: Rule files

[Imperious Leader]

Quote
yeah thats the next step and it is called AA50HE
right now we are discussing AARHE
like you don’t put 2004 revised rules into a house rule for 1981 Classic now do you?
anyway I hope AA50HE takes a different approach and hopefully a lot simpler than AARHE
Quote
you better believe it.
what do you mean by better believe it?
as in you think you would put a revised rule into a house rule for classic?
as in you think AA50HE can be a lot simpler than AARHE?

Its an American expression: its the vital reason why the effort is being made is the connotation.

Retreat (phase 4: Conduct Combat) -
Quote
OK lets get this straight:
defender declares his intentions ( retreat, continue, or die fighting)
attacker then decides one of first 2 options
If defender declared the third option, then attacker is stuck to fight to death?

(1) yes defender declares one of 3 options
(2) no attacker then decides also from all 3 options
(3) no if defender declares the third option, attacker is not stuck yet, but BOTH sides are stuck from next cycle of combat

reasoning below

regarding (1) we haven’t mentioned removal of AARHE’s partial retreat, if you want to partial retreat I have to think about retreat rules accordingly

regarding (2) both side has the ability to turn the combat into a no-more-retreat-style, this is important as I don’t want to disadvantage the attacker. so if we model what the defender can do to tie down attacking forces we also model what the attacker can do to tie down the defending forces from retreating

regarding (3) its from next cycle onwards because I don’t want the defender to have ability to suddenly stop the attacker from retreating. You wanted to give the defender ability to trench in and pose for city fighting. So no retreat  should be from next cycle of combat onwards. If attacker wants to conquer they are in for a messy fight with no retreat.
Now, my proposal does allow attacker to make stuck any unretreated defending units. This is I think is reasonable in the context of defender being passive forces in axis and allies.

This is too complicated. lets use something i am familiar with borrow the wargame retreat rules:

Before any round the defender followed by the attacker declares which units he wants to retreat. Units declared that are retreating do not fire in the subsequent round. If either side rolls up and gets more kills than what is left the additional hits go against retreating units and these dont fire back.

example: attacker has 4 tanks against 3 defending infantry. Defender decides that he will retreat 2 infantry, so attacker rolls out and gets 3 hits, so the defender rolls his two hits, then the defender removes both his defending force plus one retreating unit.

Naval Movement - on hold

Soviet Factories (a new rule) -
Quote
Well actually its “each factory can move one time per game” if the Soviets build a new factory it too can have the option. Its not one time you can move one factory, but EACH factory can move once.
lets see new scripting>>?
yeah I know
and I am suggesting to remove “each factory can move one time per game” limit but keep the “move only one factory per turn” limit
it shouldn’t be too powerful since you can’t mobilize units at a moving IC this turn

we don’t want the same factory moving more than once. thats the point. That removes the power of moving a mobile factory every turn.

Phase 6: Mobilize New Units
Soviet Factories
The Soviet player may move one Industrial Complex to an adjacent space. Both spaces must be Soviet held original Soviet territories. You cannot mobilize new units at that Industrial Complex this turn.

this is too weak. one space? why? its useless to make it one space. The Soviet factories were moved out of bomber range, which means it needs to be more than one.

its nothing wrong with “one factory per turn can move or be destroyed” and " placements arrive the following turn that you place factory."

[tekkyy]

by the way try to read the whole post before you type up your reply
sometimes it appears you read and reply at the same time which makes the response funny

Retreat (phase 4: conduct combat) -

This is too complicated. lets use something i am familiar with borrow the wargame retreat rules:

its amazing when say “too complicated”
my “fight to death” rule is much simpler than your “fight to death” rule
its the answering of your questions that was long

the actually rule as posted in one post earlier is that either side can declare it and then both sides much fight to death from next combat cycle

example: attacker has 4 tanks against 3 defending infantry. Defender decides that he will retreat 2 infantry, so attacker rolls out and gets 3 hits, so the defender rolls his two hits, then the defender removes both his defending force plus one retreating unit.

um…ok that’s a retreat rule for partial retreat
but we are discussing a retreat rule for fight to death at the moment

yes we can discuss partial retreat too, but wait for phase 4: conduct combat
we are only discussing this “fight to death” (also a phase 4: conduct combat rule) only because we have to confirm we can remove your funny phase 3: combat move rule about unused movement points

partial retreat rule does not replace a fight to death rule
to refresh your memory, this long discuss about retreat is because
*A. you want ability for one to fight to death and tie down the enemy
*B. I want attacker to be able to retreat even if it did performed too well in combat rolls killed defending units

from what you’re saying it seems you are no longer pursuing your issue A, please confirm now!
if you are no longer pursuing A, then we can simply keep AARHE’s current rule (that you can always retreat) to solve my issue B

Naval Movement - hows this coming along?
fact remains that transports are slow  (Liberty class 11.5 knots) with or without escorts
transports simply can’t join a dash through a hostile area performed by a fleet of destroyers (Fletcher class 36.5 knots) and carriers (Essex class 33 knots)

some sugguestions:
A. use AA50 rule except transports can’t go through enemy submarines, or
B. use AA50 rule except each submarine can fire once, hits can only be allocated on transports

Soviet Factories (a new rule) -

we don’t want the same factory moving more than once. thats the point. That removes the power of moving a mobile factory every turn.

you want this rule to help the Soviets
I don’t think it’ll help USSR enough if it each IC can only move once per game
anyway once per game is more suitable as a National Advantage

this is too weak. one space? why? its useless to make it one space.

ok, we’ll make it you can relocate anywhere from and to, within Soviet held original Soviet terrtiories

its nothing wrong with “one factory per turn can move or be destroyed” and " placements arrive the following turn that you place factory."

referring to your link
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=22442
they are saying the plan wasn’t all that instant or magical
so I don’t think you should be able to mobilize at a moving IC this turn

anyway your placements arrive the following turn that you place factory is not well thought out
there is territory limit to number of units you can mobilize
if you pay more IPC than your deployment capacity the the IPC are lost, thats the axis and allies rule
we don’t want to make an except for this non-core rule do we? its only an adjustment rule

[Imperious Leader]

by the way try to read the whole post before you type up your reply
sometimes it appears you read and reply at the same time which makes the response funny

Retreat (phase 4: conduct combat) -
Quote
This is too complicated. lets use something i am familiar with borrow the wargame retreat rules:
its amazing when say “too complicated”
my “fight to death” rule is much simpler than your “fight to death” rule
its the answering of your questions that was long

the actually rule as posted in one post earlier is that either side can declare it and then both sides much fight to death from next combat cycle

Quote
example: attacker has 4 tanks against 3 defending infantry. Defender decides that he will retreat 2 infantry, so attacker rolls out and gets 3 hits, so the defender rolls his two hits, then the defender removes both his defending force plus one retreating unit.
um…ok that’s a retreat rule for partial retreat
but we are discussing a retreat rule for fight to death at the moment

They are totally linked. The retreat option in this case could be complete, and the attacker would get all his rolls killing what he can and the balance of the defending forces retreating. This is a basic new system…no more fight to the death, but a minor attacker advantage.

partial retreat rule does not replace a fight to death rule
to refresh your memory, this long discuss about retreat is because
*A. you want ability for one to fight to death and tie down the enemy
*B. I want attacker to be able to retreat even if it did performed too well in combat rolls killed defending units

under what they do in the wargame, thats possible to achieve w/o any fight to the death rules. take a look.

from what you’re saying it seems you are no longer pursuing your issue A, please confirm now!
if you are no longer pursuing A, then we can simply keep AARHE’s current rule (that you can always retreat) to solve my issue B

i am not longer persuing any option thats complicated and that includes the 4.0 rules.

Naval Movement - hows this coming along?
fact remains that transports are slow  (Liberty class 11.5 knots) with or without escorts
transports simply can’t join a dash through a hostile area performed by a fleet of destroyers (Fletcher class 36.5 knots) and carriers (Essex class 33 knots)

some sugguestions:
A. use AA50 rule except transports can’t go through enemy submarines, or
B. use AA50 rule except each submarine can fire once, hits can only be allocated on transports

i was favoring option B. I prefer the transports run thru the gauntlet of possible sub attacks, which was the reason why they roll for interception and attack, while it was a 1:1 basis ( excess transports pass and are not rolled against)

Soviet Factories (a new rule) -
Quote
we don’t want the same factory moving more than once. thats the point. That removes the power of moving a mobile factory every turn.
you want this rule to help the Soviets
I don’t think it’ll help USSR enough if it each IC can only move once per game
anyway once per game is more suitable as a National Advantage

4.1 is not using any NA’s this is a short version, so some of the more needed items need to remain to help balance out the Soviet predicament because we dont allow allied units in Russia, so lend lease is not enough and the soviets need other things to help them out as a result of playtest.

Quote
this is too weak. one space? why? its useless to make it one space.
ok, we’ll make it you can relocate anywhere from and to, within Soviet held original Soviet territories

yes thats the original idea.anywhere.

Quote
its nothing wrong with “one factory per turn can move or be destroyed” and " placements arrive the following turn that you place factory."
referring to your link
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=22442
they are saying the plan wasn’t all that instant or magical
so I don’t think you should be able to mobilize at a moving IC this turn

each turn is 6 months that assumes alot of time to move.

anyway your placements arrive the following turn that you place factory is not well thought out
there is territory limit to number of units you can mobilize
if you pay more IPC than your deployment capacity the the IPC are lost, thats the axis and allies rule
we don’t want to make an except for this non-core rule do we? its only an adjustment rule

moving a factory is like building a factory. we use the same rules. you place in one turn the factory and place units the next. The only difference is in this case we are taking an existing factory and moving it instead.

[tekkyy]

Retreat (phase 4: conduct combat)
don’t have to decide on all details now
we just need to know we don’t need that “unused movement points” rule
we can continue now
discuss and finalise the many aspects of retreat when we go to phase 4: conduct combat

last comments
*in OOB we declare decisions at the end of the combat cycle, I have reservations about shifting that to the
beginning of the cycle
*could try to remove partial retreat

Naval Movement

i was favoring option B. I prefer the transports run thru the gauntlet of possible sub attacks, which was the reason why they roll for interception and attack, while it was a 1:1 basis ( excess transports pass and are not rolled against)

thats fine, (B) is essentially 1:1
2 submarines can’t kill 4 transports…2 transports are 100% safe

Naval Movement
Naval units may go through sea zones consisting of only enemy submarines or transports. Each enemy submarine rolls a die at its combat value. Hits can only be allocated on transports going through.

Soviet Factories

4.1 is not using any NA’s this is a short version, so some of the more needed items need to remain to help balance out the Soviet predicament because we dont allow allied units in Russia, so lend lease is not enough and the soviets need other things to help them out as a result of playtest.

we are both happy to boost the Soviets!
I am saying “each IC can move once per game” don’t help them much
its also one more thing to remember

moving a factory is like building a factory. we use the same rules. you place in one turn the factory and place units the next. The only difference is in this case we are taking an existing factory and moving it instead.

yeah ok place factory this turn, place units next turn
I don’t see the Soviet player abusing since they can’t build there this turn

Soviet Factories
At the beginning of Mobilize New Units phase, the Soviet player may relocate one Industrial Complex. Both territories must be a currently held original Soviet territory. You may not mobilize new units at the Industrial Complex this turn.

[Imperious Leader]

Retreat (phase 4: conduct combat)
don’t have to decide on all details now
we just need to know we don’t need that “unused movement points” rule
we can continue now
discuss and finalize the many aspects of retreat when we go to phase 4: conduct combat

ok fine, this is now assumed under Strategic Redeployment.

last comments
*in OOB we declare decisions at the end of the combat cycle, I have reservations about shifting that to the
beginning of the cycle
*could try to remove partial retreat

ok then you declare what you retreat at start of round and these units dont fire.

Naval Movement
Quote
i was favoring option B. I prefer the transports run thru the gauntlet of possible sub attacks, which was the reason why they roll for interception and attack, while it was a 1:1 basis ( excess transports pass and are not rolled against)
thats fine, (B) is essentially 1:1
2 submarines can’t kill 4 transports…2 transports are 100% safe

yes thats what we should do. each sub has one opportunity to roll and the excess are safe. script it.

Naval Movement
Naval units may go through sea zones consisting of only enemy submarines or transports. Each enemy submarine rolls a die at its combat value. Hits can only be allocated on transports going through.

thats fine, and the naval force can elect to attack the sub and allow the transports movement in NCM thru the empty zone.

Soviet Factories
Quote
4.1 is not using any NA’s this is a short version, so some of the more needed items need to remain to help balance out the Soviet predicament because we dont allow allied units in Russia, so lend lease is not enough and the soviets need other things to help them out as a result of playtest.
we are both happy to boost the Soviets!
I am saying “each IC can move once per game” don’t help them much
its also one more thing to remember

Quote
moving a factory is like building a factory. we use the same rules. you place in one turn the factory and place units the next. The only difference is in this case we are taking an existing factory and moving it instead.
yeah ok place factory this turn, place units next turn
I don’t see the Soviet player abusing since they can’t build there this turn

Soviet Factories
At the beginning of Mobilize New Units phase, the Soviet player may relocate one Industrial Complex each turn. Both territories must be a currently held original Soviet territory. You may not mobilize new units at the Industrial Complex until the turn following relocation.

yes except see bold:

[tekkyy]

ok fine, this is now assumed under Strategic Redeployment.

yeah you’ll show me when we get to phase 5
note that strategic Redeployment was an optional rule

*in OOB we declare decisions at the end of the combat cycle, I have reservations about shifting that to the
beginning of the cycle

ok then you declare what you retreat at start of round and these units dont fire.

no I am saying I hope we don’t have to shift it to the beginning of the cycle
your proposed rule did shift it
anyway we’ll discuss it when it comes

Submarine Movement - done

thats fine, and the naval force can elect to attack the sub and allow the transports movement in NCM thru the empty zone.

yes as defined in OOB/LHTR, if the submarines are killed or submerged, then any of your naval unit can move through the sea zone in NCM

Soviet Factories - done

[tekkyy]

our discussion involved actual scripts
but check anyway to see if we understood each other correctly

http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/aarhe/20090119experimental.doc
http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/aarhe/20090119experimental.pdf

under phase 1 we have “Soviet Partisans”
under phase 3 we have the rest
under phase 6 we have “Soviet Factories”

Land Movement (removed)
Airborne Drop (optional)
Soviet Winter (scenario rule)

---

for phase 4: conduct combat we’ll have pick a section first
*air units
*land combat
*naval combat
*air missions

I sugguest we do air units first
this is one area we wanted to simplify right?

[Imperious Leader]

Convoy Raid
Collect 1 less IPC from an Island in the Pacific Ocean for every enemy Submarine in the Island’s sea zone.
The UK player collects 1 less IPC for each German Submarine or Destroyer in sea zones 7, 8, 11, and 12.
The Allies receive 1 less Lend-Lease IPC for each German Submarine or Destroyer in sea zones 1,2, 3, 4,
9 and 10. Damages in sea zone 3 and 4 can only be applied to USSR.

Soviet Partisans
The German player collects no IPC from original Soviet territories if they are not occupied by at least same
number of land unit as territory income value.

everything is fine except this above>

1. The UK player collects 1 less IPC for each German Submarine or warship in sea zones 7, 8, 11, and 12.
   The Allies receive 1 less Lend-Lease IPC for each German Submarine or warship in sea zones 1,2, 3, 4,
   9 and 10.

2. The German player collects no IPC from original Soviet territories if they are not occupied by at least one land unit .

[tekkyy]

1a)
our idea was to include submarines and surface raiders right?
hence I didn’t include capital ships (larger and slower)

to represent German “merchart raiders” we could include Transport instead of Destroyer
then maybe for every German Submarine or Transport ?

if its realistic to include capital ships (please describe)
then maybe we won’t need to say submarines but just for every German naval unit (except Transport) ?

1b)
yes ok, it’ll be simpler

yes ok, but as mentioned I think “1 land unit” won’t help USSR except in early game

[Imperious Leader]

1a)
our idea was to include submarines and surface raiders right?

hence I didn’t include capital ships (larger and slower)

to represent German “merchart raiders” we could include Transport instead of Destroyer
then maybe for every German Submarine or Transport ?

if its realistic to include capital ships (please describe)
then maybe we won’t need to say submarines but just for every German naval unit (except Transport) ?

yes every ship that can fight is a surface raider potentially. of course no transports.

1b)
yes ok, it’ll be simpler

yes ok, but as mentioned I think “1 land unit” won’t help USSR except in early game

Its a token bit of holding back for garrison duty. Germany wasted lots of resources protecting and finding enemies when they could be on the front lines , partially due to the resistance. This should include the balkans but it would be too harsh on the Italians who have basically nothing to start.

[tekkyy]

I’ve updated
http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/aarhe/20090120experimental.doc
http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/aarhe/20090120experimental.pdf

Phase 4: Conduct Combat
lets discuss air units and air missions first
(land and naval combat sequence later)

Air units
in your 112508 file you no longer have AARHE’s
a) land units hits can’t be allocated on enemy air units
b) friendly air units in excess of friendly land units fight at combat value of 1
yeah ok, its simpler and closer to OOB

we just say air units hits must be allocated against air units first
(hopefully a basic and consistent system across both land and naval combat)

Dogfights
you proposed these values
fighter = 3
bomber = 1
I think fighter should be 2

Anti-aircraft
you proposed an auto kill 1 air unit for every 6 air units
you also ask the player to do this lining up thing
and that only one AA fire

OOB is too powerful
your proposal made it weaker, but OOB’s unlimited fire of AA gun remains
your proposal lets defender choose casualty (albeit before dice) but this still allows bombers to never die, but this was the issue which resulted in Revised AA rules vs. Classic AA rules

so I propose a simple rule, from some variant (world at war?)
each AA gun fire against up to 3 air units
still targetted
still hit on a 1
still $5

Counter Air
you proposed no no changes

Strategic Bombing Raid
you proposed defending air units fight at 2 and attacking escorts fight at 1, why?
I proposed only the fighters dogfight

you proposed attacker can’t bring more escorts than bombers, why?
you proposed defender can’t use more air units then total attacking air units, why?
I don’t think these limits are realistic, when enemy has a larger air force they should be able to hurt you

Ground Interdiction
your proposed rule’s refers to “combat reinforcements”
AARHE doesn’t have combat reinforcements since a long while back
we only have non-combat reinforcements

[Imperious Leader]

Phase 4: Conduct Combat
lets discuss air units and air missions first
(land and naval combat sequence later)

Air units
in your 112508 file you no longer have AARHE’s
a) land units hits can’t be allocated on enemy air units
b) friendly air units in excess of friendly land units fight at combat value of 1
yeah ok, its simpler and closer to OOB

yes more like OOB

we just say air units hits must be allocated against air units first
(hopefully a basic and consistent system across both land and naval combat)

Dogfights
you proposed these values
fighter = 3
bomber = 1
I think fighter should be 2

the values are already in the rules latter on in the file ( dogfight values)

Anti-aircraft
you proposed an auto kill 1 air unit for every 6 air units
you also ask the player to do this lining up thing
and that only one AA fire

OOB is too powerful
your proposal made it weaker, but OOB’s unlimited fire of AA gun remains
your proposal lets defender choose casualty (albeit before dice) but this still allows bombers to never die, but this was the issue which resulted in Revised AA rules vs. Classic AA rules

so I propose a simple rule, from some variant (world at war?)
each AA gun fire against up to 3 air units
still targetted
still hit on a 1
still $5

OK then a cap of 3 rolls per AA gun, hit on one. fine.

Counter Air
you proposed no no changes

Strategic Bombing Raid
you proposed defending air units fight at 2 and attacking escorts fight at 1, why?
I proposed only the fighters dogfight

SBR raid is one round and dogfights can be multiple rounds. The pre SBR dogfight is not meant to chew up planes. SOI we just keep the OOB from AAE.

you proposed attacker can’t bring more escorts than bombers, why?
you proposed defender can’t use more air units then total attacking air units, why?
I don’t think these limits are realistic, when enemy has a larger air force they should be able to hurt you

It wipes out small nations and does not give them a chance to fight or use these strategies. I want the air combat to be not bloody as before.

Ground Interdiction
your proposed rule’s refers to “combat reinforcements”
AARHE doesn’t have combat reinforcements since a long while back
we only have non-combat reinforcements

Yes this is stripped down. They must be adjacent in order to participate.

The rules no longer have “NC reinforcements” but they do have strategic redeployment.

Please in the future just copy and paste the exact wording of the new text we are covering at each phase like we were doing in the beginning. use only the file i provided that we were working from. Section by section. I dont know where your dealing with because some of the ideas you posted are in different places.

[tekkyy]

I’ve been on work trips

yeah I could paste paragraphs from your 112508 file if you insist
just didn’t want huge posts as you often seem so rushed

Air units
your text
Land Combat: Air Units
When both sides have air units present air units fight at air combat values. Aerial combat occurs and air units do not attack land units. Hits must be allocated on other air units before transport plane.

yes more like OOB
but keep AARHE’s rule of dogfight hits allocated on air units first right?

proposed text
Air Units
When both sides have air units present air units fight at air combat values. The hits must be allocated on air units first. Fighters fight at 2 and bombers fight at 1.

Dogfights
your text
Dogfights
When planes fight in land battles they now are rolling against each other and allocating other air units as hits before land units can be hit. AS such they have different dogfight values as follows:
Fighters: 3
Fighter-Bomber: 2 ( optional unit)
Bomber: 1
Heavy Bomber: 2 (technology upgrade)
Jet fighters: 4 (technology upgrade)

the values I posted were what you had
I am saying I think fighter should be @ 2 or it’ll be bloody
no proposed text
closing this heading as discussed, “air units” heading and “dogfight” heading combined into one small heading

Antiaircraft
your text
Anti-Air
Each starting factory comes with 1 AA gun and is rolled as follows: count the number of air units flying over and for every 6 air units allocate on hit by lining up the air units and the die roll destroys the unit in the sequence. If you have less than 6 air units, then follow the same procedure, except you need to roll the quantity of planes or less to score a hit. Example: Germany flies 3 fighters over London, so UK player needs to roll 3 or less to hit. Only one AA roll for all the air units.

yep like OOB but just cap of 3 rolls per AA gun
of course we keep the old AARHE rule of not shooting at over flying units

proposed text
Antiaircraft
Air units are only subject to antiaircraft fire at the territory they are attacking. Roll one die against each attacking air unit. You may only roll up to 3 dice per Antiaircraft gun.

Strategic Bombing Raid
your text
Strategic Bombing Run (SBR)
Bomber may perform SBR against a hostile territory. During SBR attacks the defending player can bring in planes to fight against bombers defending at a 2. The attacker can bring in escorts to escort his bombers and they attack at 1. The maximum number of defending planes cannot exceed the total number of attacking air units including bombers. Only one round of air combat occurs prior to SBR rolls. The attacker can not bring in more escorts than bombers. Note: The AA gun rolls only against the bombers and not against the escorting fighters. The surviving bombers roll 1D6 which reduces the IPC of the player immediately.

SBR raid is one round and dogfights can be multiple rounds. The pre SBR dogfight is not meant to chew up planes. SOI we just keep the OOB from AAE.

hehe your system is not quite as simple as AAE/AAP
the only bit you took from AAE/AAP is the 2 and 1 combat values

lets stick closer
and use AAP (because I prefer Antiaircraft to remain preemptive)

the only thing is we use AARHE’s aircraft procedure
(that way fighters can’t shield bombers from antiaircraft gun, funny but unrealistic…I guess AAE and AAP DID come out before AAR)

proposed text
Strategic Bombing Run (SBR)
Bomber may perform SBR against any enemy territory. Attacker may send fighters as escorts. Defender may send fighters in the territory to defend. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualities. Defending fighters fight at 2. Attacking fighters fight at 1. Remove caualities. Each surviving bomber roll a die and territory income is reduced by that many IPCs during the next collect income phase.

Counter Air (CA)
I am still thining about this
want simplicity, consistency

Ground Interdiction
I am still thinking about this
want simplicity, consistency

your proposed rule’s refers to “combat reinforcements”
AARHE doesn’t have combat reinforcements since a long while back
we only have non-combat reinforcements

Yes this is stripped down. They must be adjacent in order to participate.
The rules no longer have “NC reinforcements” but they do have strategic redeployment.

the stripped down part I think you are referring to phase 3: “Air Reinforcement”
Non-combat Reinforcement is in phase 5 and for land units

yes I did notice your 112508 file did not have the “Reinforcement” rule in phase 5 and only had “Strategic Redeployment” (SR)
SR has previously been an optional rule due to complexity
I wouldn’t agree to have it as a standard rule in the current form, let your idea of putting in your unused movement point idea into SR

regardless, in their current form SR is not a replacement for “Reinforcement” in phase 5
Reinforcement addresses a very different issue
it is due to defender retreat, making defending units under attack can move but untouched defending units may not…hence untouched defending units should be able to relocate

we are not discussing combat sequence yet but I am just want to clarify my position on Reinforcement and Strategic Redeployment

Air Missions overall heading
your text
Air Missions
Each air unit can only perform one air mission per turn. It may not perform normal combat in the same turn. Air missions are declared with normal combat moves. Air missions are resolved before normal combats and before Defensive Air Support air units arrive.

adjustment to AAE/AAP system as you wish
defending air units cannot participate in normal combat

proposed text
Air Missions
Each air unit can only perform one air mission per turn. Air units performing air missions and air units defending against air missions may not partcipate in other combat this turn. Defending air units may retreat if territory control is lost. Air missions are resolved before normal combats and before Air Reinforcement units arrive.

[Imperious Leader]

Air units
your text
Land Combat: Air Units
When both sides have air units present air units fight at air combat values. Aerial combat occurs and air units do not attack land units. Hits must be allocated on other air units before transport plane.

yes more like OOB
but keep AARHE’s rule of dogfight hits allocated on air units first right?

proposed text
Air Units
When both sides have air units present air units fight at air combat values. The hits must be allocated on air units first. Fighters fight at 2 and bombers fight at 1.

ok good. ill go with that.

Dogfights
your text
Dogfights
When planes fight in land battles they now are rolling against each other and allocating other air units as hits before land units can be hit. AS such they have different dogfight values as follows:
Fighters: 3
Fighter-Bomber: 2 ( optional unit)
Bomber: 1
Heavy Bomber: 2 (technology upgrade)
Jet fighters: 4 (technology upgrade)

the values I posted were what you had
I am saying I think fighter should be @ 2 or it’ll be bloody
no proposed text
closing this heading as discussed, “air units” heading and “dogfight” heading combined into one small heading

ok fighters are at 2, but fighter bombers are at 1 now.

Antiaircraft
your text
Anti-Air
Each starting factory comes with 1 AA gun and is rolled as follows: count the number of air units flying over and for every 6 air units allocate on hit by lining up the air units and the die roll destroys the unit in the sequence. If you have less than 6 air units, then follow the same procedure, except you need to roll the quantity of planes or less to score a hit. Example: Germany flies 3 fighters over London, so UK player needs to roll 3 or less to hit. Only one AA roll for all the air units.

yep like OOB but just cap of 3 rolls per AA gun
of course we keep the old AARHE rule of not shooting at over flying units

proposed text
Antiaircraft
Air units are only subject to antiaircraft fire at the territory they are attacking. Roll one die against each attacking air unit. You may only roll up to 3 dice per Antiaircraft gun.

ok i agree. fine.

Strategic Bombing Raid
your text
Strategic Bombing Run (SBR)
Bomber may perform SBR against a hostile territory. During SBR attacks the defending player can bring in planes to fight against bombers defending at a 2. The attacker can bring in escorts to escort his bombers and they attack at 1. The maximum number of defending planes cannot exceed the total number of attacking air units including bombers. Only one round of air combat occurs prior to SBR rolls. The attacker can not bring in more escorts than bombers. Note: The AA gun rolls only against the bombers and not against the escorting fighters. The surviving bombers roll 1D6 which reduces the IPC of the player immediately.

Quote
SBR raid is one round and dogfights can be multiple rounds. The pre SBR dogfight is not meant to chew up planes. SOI we just keep the OOB from AAE.
hehe your system is not quite as simple as AAE/AAP
the only bit you took from AAE/AAP is the 2 and 1 combat values

OK look at the example where a nation with 1 bomber wants to bomb and has just 1-2 fighters and the other side has 6 fighters…well you can see that the attackers mission will result in failure, which means that the poor nation cant use this strategy. I want anybody to use the SBR at any time regardless of their position. This is compensation for our own escort/ interceptor rules we now use.

l

proposed text
Strategic Bombing Run (SBR)
Bomber may perform SBR against any enemy territory. Attacker may send fighters as escorts. Defender may send fighters in the territory to defend. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualties. Defending fighters fight at 2. Attacking fighters fight at 1. Remove causalities. Each surviving bomber roll a die and territory income is reduced by that many IPCs during the next collect income phase.

yes good.

Counter Air (CA)
I am still thining about this
want simplicity, consistency

Ground Interdiction
I am still thinking about this
want simplicity, consistency

in the first case its like an SBR attack but with no bombers. your goal is to kill planes. Attacker at 1, defender at 2
this is a good rule.

In the second case adjacent fighters can assist an attacked territory. fighting at air combat values

Quote
your proposed rule’s refers to “combat reinforcements”
AARHE doesn’t have combat reinforcements since a long while back
we only have non-combat reinforcements
Quote
Yes this is stripped down. They must be adjacent in order to participate.
The rules no longer have “NC reinforcements” but they do have strategic redeployment.
the stripped down part I think you are referring to phase 3: “Air Reinforcement”
Non-combat Reinforcement is in phase 5 and for land units

yes I did notice your 112508 file did not have the “Reinforcement” rule in phase 5 and only had “Strategic Redeployment” (SR)
SR has previously been an optional rule due to complexity
I wouldn’t agree to have it as a standard rule in the current form, let your idea of putting in your unused movement point idea into SR.

Its a great idea and its the only compensation left for the non- inclusion of the “armor moving one space, can use the second MP to retreat in NCM” we got rid of that idea because you felt is was too gamey, but this is a great idea.

regardless, in their current form SR is not a replacement for “Reinforcement” in phase 5
Reinforcement addresses a very different issue
it is due to defender retreat, making defending units under attack can move but untouched defending units may not…hence untouched defending units should be able to relocate

SR points can allocate units that just were in combat to allow the to retreat. SO thats the way we fit in the game the idea of greater movement. I am trying to fix the idea that the defender retreats and leaves the attacker exposed for counterattack.

Air Missions overall heading
your text
Air Missions
Each air unit can only perform one air mission per turn. It may not perform normal combat in the same turn. Air missions are declared with normal combat moves. Air missions are resolved before normal combats and before Defensive Air Support air units arrive.

adjustment to AAE/AAP system as you wish
defending air units cannot participate in normal combat

except for adjacent defending air can assist in air defense.

proposed text
Air Missions
Each air unit can only perform one air mission per turn. Air units performing air missions and air units defending against air missions may not participate in other combat this turn. Defending air units may retreat if territory control is lost. Air missions are resolved before normal combats and before Air Reinforcement units arrive.

I am not clear on the last sentence. I think your saying the active player performs all air missions first, while some of these types of mission require the defender to make decisions, so its not a proper thing to say the passive player cant allocate his planes for defensive missions like Air reinforcement or SBR interceptions.

[tekkyy]

Air units - done

Dogfights - removed, values listed under “Air Units”

Antiaircraft - done

Strategic Bombing Raid

OK look at the example where a nation with 1 bomber wants to bomb and has just 1-2 fighters and the other side has 6 fighters…well you can see that the attackers mission will result in failure

but thats the thing, realistically if your enemy has superior air force and you insist on bombing them…you are simply taking on great risks

your option should be to hit the less guarded territories, or get rockets

Counter Air

in the first case its like an SBR attack but with no bombers. your goal is to kill planes. Attacker at 1, defender at 2
this is a good rule.

yeah no bombers because they are much slower
and unlike SBR there are no bombers to protect
so I think fighters of both side should be fighting at 2

proposed text
_Counter Air (CA)
Fighter may perform CA against any enemy territory. Defender must send at least the same number of air units in the territory to defend. They may not perform Air Reinforcement this turn. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualties. Fighters fight at 2. Bombers fight at 1.

Ground Interdiction
your text
Bomber may make an interdiction attack against land units in a hostile territory. You may bring other air units besides bomber as escorts. AA guns fire before this aerial combat. One cycle of aerial combat occurs between your air units and defending air units at dog fighting values. If a bomber survives it may roll for ground interdiction with die value equal to number of land units performing combat reinforcements now prevented from moving.

In the second case adjacent fighters can assist an attacked territory. fighting at air combat values

I was hoping to be consistent and consider Air Missions to be fast and not defendable by air units coming from Air Reinforcement

maybe the rule doesn’t make sense and should be removed
should it prevent non-combat reinforcement, or should it prevent retreat, or should it require total air superiority
this kind of rule has only appeared in hex games anyway right?

Air Missions
Air missions are resolved before normal combats and before Air Reinforcement units arrive.

I think your saying the active player performs all air missions first, while some of these types of mission require the defender to make decisions, so its not a proper thing to say the passive player cant allocate his planes for defensive missions like Air reinforcement or SBR interceptions.

remember Air Reinforcement is not an air mission but a heading from phase 3: combat move
it is a relocation of Air Units to adjacent territories
so defending fighters coming from adjacent territories can assist in normal combats, but not air missions_

[Imperious Leader]

Strategic Bombing Raid
Quote
OK look at the example where a nation with 1 bomber wants to bomb and has just 1-2 fighters and the other side has 6 fighters…well you can see that the attackers mission will result in failure
but thats the thing, realistically if your enemy has superior air force and you insist on bombing them…you are simply taking on great risks

your option should be to hit the less guarded territories, or get rockets

Thats not the option, If a nation only has one factory, then the poor nations cant attack the swarm of fighters. Thats not play balance. I want to encourage players to have the SAME ACCESS to all strategies, because they all dont start with large air forces. IN the war historically UK didnt have the air forces as Germany but still managed to bomb Berlin.

The game must reflect this. And Rockets are not a viable option for the opening period of the game.

Counter Air
Quote
in the first case its like an SBR attack but with no bombers. your goal is to kill planes. Attacker at 1, defender at 2
this is a good rule.
yeah no bombers because they are much slower
and unlike SBR there are no bombers to protect
so I think fighters of both side should be fighting at 2

NO defending are at 2 because they dont need to worry about fuel, escorts have limited time to escort before they need to fly back. The OOB rule got it correct, plus its a compromise from your issue against limiting the defense.

proposed text
Counter Air (CA)
Fighter may perform CA against any enemy territory. Defender must send at least the same number of air units in the territory to defend. They may not perform Air Reinforcement this turn. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualties. Fighters fight at 2. Bombers fight at 1.

I think this would work i note that ONLY in this case both attacker and defender fighters are at 2. I think it should also be at 1 and 2 like in SBR, but in this case the attacker CAN outnumber the defender in total planes.  I am right think about it carefully.

Also, The sentence underlined makes no sence to me.

keep it like this:

Defensive Air Support Mission (DAS)
During your enemies’ turn your air units may move to assist your land units defending in adjacent combat situations. DAS are declared after all combat moves are declared and before resolving any combat. DAS may not be performed during USSR player’s special opening turn.

Counter Air Mission (CA)
Air units may make an interdiction attack against air units in a hostile territory. One cycle of aerial combat occurs between your air units and hostile air units at dog fighting values. AA guns fire before this aerial combat. Your air units must retreat to the original territory. The defender may not use air units in a territory targeted by CA for Defensive Air Support up to the number of planes that the attacker brought in to perform CA mission.

Strategic Bombing Run (SBR)
Bomber may perform SBR against a hostile territory. During SBR attacks the defending player can bring in planes to fight against bombers defending at a 2. The attacker can bring in escorts to escort his bombers and they attack at 1. The maximum number of defending planes cannot exceed the total number of attacking air units including bombers. Only one round of air combat occurs prior to SBR rolls. The attacker can not bring in more escorts than bombers. Note: The AA gun rolls only against the bombers and not against the escorting fighters. The surviving bombers roll 1D6 which reduces the IPC of the player immediately.

Ground Interdiction Mission (GI)
Bomber may make an interdiction attack against land units in a hostile territory. You may bring other air units besides bomber as escorts. AA guns fire before this aerial combat. One cycle of aerial combat occurs between your air units and defending air units at dog fighting values. If a bomber survives it may roll for ground interdiction with die value equal to number of land units performing combat reinforcements now prevented from moving.

maybe the rule doesn’t make sense and should be removed
should it prevent non-combat reinforcement, or should it prevent retreat, or should it require total air superiority
this kind of rule has only appeared in hex games anyway right?

The rule prevents the existing units from moving ON THEIR TURN. It makes no claim as to units moving into and or thru the territory. Its very simple and effective use of suppression to prevent forces from advancing. its fine as it is.

[Imperious Leader]

This is the original AA rule that we are using.

Fighter Escorts and Interceptors
Fighters can participate in strategic bombing raids. Attacking fighters may escort and protect the bombers, and they can originate from any territory, range permitting. Any or all defending fighters based in a territory that is strategically bombed can participate in the defense of the industrial complex. The number of fighters that will defend is decided after the attacker’s Combat Movement phase is completed and before the Combat phase begins.
After antiaircraft fire is resolved against the attacking air units, if there are any defending fighters an air battle occurs between the attacking and defending air units. This combat is resolved in the same way as a normal combat, with a few exceptions. The fighters have an attack value of 1 and a defense value of 2, and the bombers have no attack value. In addition, the combat lasts for only one round. After the battle, any surviving bombers proceed to carry out the raid as normal.
Fighters participating as either an escort or a defender cannot participate in other battles during that turn. Defending interceptors must return to their original territory. If that territory is captured, the fighters may move one space to land in a friendly territory or on a friendly aircraft carrier. This movement occurs after all of the attacker’s combats have been resolved and before the attackers

[tekkyy]

Strategic Bombing Raid

Thats not the option, If a nation only has one factory, then the poor nations cant attack the swarm of fighters.

note in AARHE you bomb the territory to destroy income
we also had a rule (contributed by switch) where you bomb the industrial complex to destroy production capacity

IN the war historically UK didnt have the air forces as Germany but still managed to bomb Berlin.

we can think of why and model that
it just seems artifical to limit the size of the escort fleet or intercept fleet

so UK can bomb without losing too much
maybe its due to the length of the dogfight during an SBR being shorter than normal combat
in this case to be realistic we reduce the combat values

0 for escort fighters
1 for intercept fighters

Counter Air

I think this would work i note that ONLY in this case both attacker and defender fighters are at 2.

yes only in CA
attacking fighters in SBR are handicapped as they are escorting the bombers
but in CA attacking fighters are much closer to equal footing

Defender must send at least the same number of air units in the territory to defend.They may not perform Air Reinforcement this turn.

Also, The sentence underlined makes no sence to me.

same as before just worded differently
CA missions lets you attack and tie down defending air units

so if attacker sends 3 fighters, at least the same number of defending air units in the territory are tied down
if the defender has more than 3 air units in the territory he can send them to defend too if he wants

keep it like this:
Defensive Air Support Mission (DAS)…

DAS rule is “Close Air Support” in reality, which is just normal combat in the game
hence we don’t have DAS anymore

what we do have is “Air Reinforcement” in phase 3: combat move
come on, this was only like a week or 2 ago

Counter Air Mission (CA)…
Strategic Bombing Run (SBR)…

hehe you’ve just relisted the rules
we’ll see, still discussing ideas

Ground Interdiction

The rule prevents the existing units from moving ON THEIR TURN. It makes no claim as to units moving into and or thru the territory. Its very simple and effective use of suppression to prevent forces from advancing. its fine as it is.

just saying “its fine as it is” doesn’t add weight to your argument
hopefully you can reply to my concerns directly

I’ve only seen this kind of rule in hex games (squad level) and games with turns representing short time periods
applying it to axis and allies revised…
it doesn’t make sense for entire armies to be pinned by bombers
it doesn’t make sense for bombers to remain in enemy territory for 6 months

D-Day had a GI rule right?
its hex level, short time periods, and Allies have air superiority

Fighter Escorts and Interceptors
Defending interceptors must return to their original territory.

the time frame in AARHE is that air missions are resolved before normal combats,
air missions occur before Air Reinforcement or DAS units arrive

[Imperious Leader]

Strategic Bombing Raid
Quote
Thats not the option, If a nation only has one factory, then the poor nations cant attack the swarm of fighters.
note in AARHE you bomb the territory to destroy income
we also had a rule (contributed by switch) where you bomb the industrial complex to destroy production capacity

yes and thats an issue for the next version for AA50HE. If you want to do it now thats fine. But the real point is we want to give equal opportunity for anybody even with one bomber to bomb the enemy and not get wiped out.

Quote
IN the war historically UK didnt have the air forces as Germany but still managed to bomb Berlin.
we can think of why and model that
it just seems artifical to limit the size of the escort fleet or intercept fleet

Yes but its also not realistic to have a situation where the entire bomber force is wiped out because the other guy has 2-3 more planes. If you just got one bomber and can never build another due to the costs it just closes off the strategy for only richer nations, but historically UK bombed Berlin in 1940 and they had a much smaller air force….so its got to be allowed somehow.

so UK can bomb without losing too much
maybe its due to the length of the dogfight during an SBR being shorter than normal combat
in this case to be realistic we reduce the combat values

0 for escort fighters
1 for intercept fighters

Lowering the value to Zero im afraid is not good enough, we should just limit the quantities. its got to be 1-2 because thats the minimum, plus its easy to remember the old AAE rule.

Counter Air
Quote
I think this would work i note that ONLY in this case both attacker and defender fighters are at 2.

yes only in CA
attacking fighters in SBR are handicapped as they are escorting the bombers
but in CA attacking fighters are much closer to equal footing

ok lets try that. lets see the scripting…

Quote
Defender must send at least the same number of air units in the territory to defend.They may not perform Air Reinforcement this turn.
Quote
Also, The sentence underlined makes no sence to me.
same as before just worded differently
CA missions lets you attack and tie down defending air units

so if attacker sends 3 fighters, at least the same number of defending air units in the territory are tied down
if the defender has more than 3 air units in the territory he can send them to defend too if he wants

but you write the name MUST… thats not the way to write it out. One is rather limited in CA from performing other missions as the defender unless you have extra planes than the attacker.

Quote
keep it like this:
Defensive Air Support Mission (DAS)…
DAS rule is “Close Air Support” in reality, which is just normal combat in the game
hence we don’t have DAS anymore

what we do have is “Air Reinforcement” in phase 3: combat move
come on, this was only like a week or 2 ago

yes old terminology. ok CAS

Ground Interdiction

Quote
The rule prevents the existing units from moving ON THEIR TURN. It makes no claim as to units moving into and or thru the territory. Its very simple and effective use of suppression to prevent forces from advancing. its fine as it is.
just saying “its fine as it is” doesn’t add weight to your argument
hopefully you can reply to my concerns directly

I’ve only seen this kind of rule in hex games (squad level) and games with turns representing short time periods
applying it to axis and allies revised…
it doesn’t make sense for entire armies to be pinned by bombers
it doesn’t make sense for bombers to remain in enemy territory for 6 months

Its not that the bombers are “hovering” for 6 months, its that they are blowing the crap out of railroads, trains, roads,transportation centers…anything that effects movement to other fronts. Not to look at thing so literally. Its just the same idea as SBR except the damage is infrastructure thats effects transportation. It can be done at a strategic or tactical level.

Its just air suppression and total control of the sky. At the Bulge the Germans had no air and the tactic stopped the armor dead in its tracks from forward movement to the Meuse.

I guess its the same idea from AA D-Day…well sort of.

Quote
Fighter Escorts and Interceptors
Defending interceptors must return to their original territory.
the time frame in AARHE is that air missions are resolved before normal combats,
air missions occur before Air Reinforcement or DAS units arrive

well just write the mission out is very short sequence like you did before, but real short. The way it was written was not clear.

[tekkyy]

Strategic Bombing Raid

IL: Thats not the option, If a nation only has one factory, then the poor nations cant attack the swarm of fighters.
tekkyy: note in AARHE you bomb the territory to destroy income
we also had a rule (contributed by switch) where you bomb the industrial complex to destroy production capacity
IL: yes and thats an issue for the next version for AA50HE. If you want to do it now thats fine. But the real point is we want to give equal opportunity for anybody even with one bomber to bomb the enemy and not get wiped out.

no I was reminding you that SBR is performed on a territory not industrial complex in AARHE
ie. you can SBR Western Europe
this is regarding “nation only has one factory”

my stance isn’t to create equal opportunity
as I said before, if a player wants to suicide (inferior airforce performing SBR against superior airforce) its their choice to do so

losses during an SBR are prefectly normal
recall the comparison between the (A) Blitz, (B) V1 rockets, and © Allies strategic bombing compaign
(B) was much more cost effective, but it is not to say (A) or © is stupid
in (A), Germany vs UK, Germany can afford the losses
in ©, US+UK vs Germany, US+UK can afford the losses

Yes but its also not realistic to have a situation where the entire bomber force is wiped out because the other guy has 2-3 more planes.

its realistic if your 1 bomber division was outnumbered by the enemies’ 2-3 fighter divisions

its just suicide, the general wouldn’t have ordered such a move
solution below

but historically UK bombed Berlin in 1940 and they had a much smaller air force….so its got to be allowed somehow.

here we are talking about scale and damage that are orders of magnitude smaller
solution below

Lowering the value to Zero im afraid is not good enough, we should just limit the quantities. its got to be 1-2 because thats the minimum, plus its easy to remember the old AAE rule.

recall an old AARHE rule, where you can perform SBR at 50% effectiveness
we could use this rule, call it Night Bombing or something
we then limit bomber:escort and bomber:interceptor ratio to 1:2 as you wished

Counter Air

ok lets try that. lets see the scripting…

Counter Air (CA)
Fighter may perform CA against any enemy territory. Defender selects at least the same number of air units in the territory to fight. The selected air units may not perform Air Reinforcement this turn. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualties. Fighters fight at 2. Bombers fight at 1. Attacking fighters must retreat to the original territory in Non-combat Move phase.

but you write the name MUST… thats not the way to write it out. One is rather limited in CA from performing other missions as the defender unless you have extra planes than the attacker.

thats because its not optional
if Germany sends 3 fighters on a CA mission to London
UK MUST send at least 3 air units to fight

Ground Interdiction

Its not that the bombers are “hovering” for 6 months, its that they are blowing the crap out of railroads, trains, roads,transportation centers…anything that effects movement to other fronts.

ok we could keep it
but regardless I don’t agree with

The rule prevents the existing units from moving ON THEIR TURN.

it should be preventing movement of enemy land units ON YOUR TURN
ie. “Reinforcement” during phase 5: Non-combat Move

well just write the mission out is very short sequence like you did before, but real short. The way it was written was not clear.

combat move:
1. active players declare combat moves and air missions
2. passive players declare air reinforcement (because X attacking CA units prevents X defending units from performing air reinforcement)

conduct combat:
1. resolve air missions (eg. SBR)
2. resolve normal combat

I am also trying to write it short
hence I just said
Air missions are resolved before normal combats and before Air Reinforcement units arrive.
it could be written differently of course