I’ve updated
http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/aarhe/20090120experimental.doc
http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/aarhe/20090120experimental.pdf
Phase 4: Conduct Combat
lets discuss air units and air missions first
(land and naval combat sequence later)
Air units
in your 112508 file you no longer have AARHE’s
a) land units hits can’t be allocated on enemy air units
b) friendly air units in excess of friendly land units fight at combat value of 1
yeah ok, its simpler and closer to OOB
we just say air units hits must be allocated against air units first
(hopefully a basic and consistent system across both land and naval combat)
Dogfights
you proposed these values
fighter = 3
bomber = 1
I think fighter should be 2
Anti-aircraft
you proposed an auto kill 1 air unit for every 6 air units
you also ask the player to do this lining up thing
and that only one AA fire
OOB is too powerful
your proposal made it weaker, but OOB’s unlimited fire of AA gun remains
your proposal lets defender choose casualty (albeit before dice) but this still allows bombers to never die, but this was the issue which resulted in Revised AA rules vs. Classic AA rules
so I propose a simple rule, from some variant (world at war?)
each AA gun fire against up to 3 air units
still targetted
still hit on a 1
still $5
Counter Air
you proposed no no changes
Strategic Bombing Raid
you proposed defending air units fight at 2 and attacking escorts fight at 1, why?
I proposed only the fighters dogfight
you proposed attacker can’t bring more escorts than bombers, why?
you proposed defender can’t use more air units then total attacking air units, why?
I don’t think these limits are realistic, when enemy has a larger air force they should be able to hurt you
Ground Interdiction
your proposed rule’s refers to “combat reinforcements”
AARHE doesn’t have combat reinforcements since a long while back
we only have non-combat reinforcements
Phase 4: Conduct Combat
lets discuss air units and air missions first
(land and naval combat sequence later)Air units
in your 112508 file you no longer have AARHE’s
a) land units hits can’t be allocated on enemy air units
b) friendly air units in excess of friendly land units fight at combat value of 1
yeah ok, its simpler and closer to OOB
yes more like OOB
we just say air units hits must be allocated against air units first
(hopefully a basic and consistent system across both land and naval combat)Dogfights
you proposed these values
fighter = 3
bomber = 1
I think fighter should be 2
the values are already in the rules latter on in the file ( dogfight values)
Anti-aircraft
you proposed an auto kill 1 air unit for every 6 air units
you also ask the player to do this lining up thing
and that only one AA fireOOB is too powerful
your proposal made it weaker, but OOB’s unlimited fire of AA gun remains
your proposal lets defender choose casualty (albeit before dice) but this still allows bombers to never die, but this was the issue which resulted in Revised AA rules vs. Classic AA rulesso I propose a simple rule, from some variant (world at war?)
each AA gun fire against up to 3 air units
still targetted
still hit on a 1
still $5
OK then a cap of 3 rolls per AA gun, hit on one. fine.
Counter Air
you proposed no no changesStrategic Bombing Raid
you proposed defending air units fight at 2 and attacking escorts fight at 1, why?
I proposed only the fighters dogfight
SBR raid is one round and dogfights can be multiple rounds. The pre SBR dogfight is not meant to chew up planes. SOI we just keep the OOB from AAE.
you proposed attacker can’t bring more escorts than bombers, why?
you proposed defender can’t use more air units then total attacking air units, why?
I don’t think these limits are realistic, when enemy has a larger air force they should be able to hurt you
It wipes out small nations and does not give them a chance to fight or use these strategies. I want the air combat to be not bloody as before.
Ground Interdiction
your proposed rule’s refers to “combat reinforcements”
AARHE doesn’t have combat reinforcements since a long while back
we only have non-combat reinforcements
Yes this is stripped down. They must be adjacent in order to participate.
The rules no longer have “NC reinforcements” but they do have strategic redeployment.
Please in the future just copy and paste the exact wording of the new text we are covering at each phase like we were doing in the beginning. use only the file i provided that we were working from. Section by section. I dont know where your dealing with because some of the ideas you posted are in different places.
I’ve been on work trips
yeah I could paste paragraphs from your 112508 file if you insist
just didn’t want huge posts as you often seem so rushed
Air units
your text
Land Combat: Air Units
When both sides have air units present air units fight at air combat values. Aerial combat occurs and air units do not attack land units. Hits must be allocated on other air units before transport plane.
yes more like OOB
but keep AARHE’s rule of dogfight hits allocated on air units first right?
proposed text
Air Units
When both sides have air units present air units fight at air combat values. The hits must be allocated on air units first. Fighters fight at 2 and bombers fight at 1.
Dogfights
your text
Dogfights
When planes fight in land battles they now are rolling against each other and allocating other air units as hits before land units can be hit. AS such they have different dogfight values as follows:
Fighters: 3
Fighter-Bomber: 2 ( optional unit)
Bomber: 1
Heavy Bomber: 2 (technology upgrade)
Jet fighters: 4 (technology upgrade)
the values I posted were what you had
I am saying I think fighter should be @ 2 or it’ll be bloody
no proposed text
closing this heading as discussed, “air units” heading and “dogfight” heading combined into one small heading
Antiaircraft
your text
Anti-Air
Each starting factory comes with 1 AA gun and is rolled as follows: count the number of air units flying over and for every 6 air units allocate on hit by lining up the air units and the die roll destroys the unit in the sequence. If you have less than 6 air units, then follow the same procedure, except you need to roll the quantity of planes or less to score a hit. Example: Germany flies 3 fighters over London, so UK player needs to roll 3 or less to hit. Only one AA roll for all the air units.
yep like OOB but just cap of 3 rolls per AA gun
of course we keep the old AARHE rule of not shooting at over flying units
proposed text
Antiaircraft
Air units are only subject to antiaircraft fire at the territory they are attacking. Roll one die against each attacking air unit. You may only roll up to 3 dice per Antiaircraft gun.
Strategic Bombing Raid
your text
Strategic Bombing Run (SBR)
Bomber may perform SBR against a hostile territory. During SBR attacks the defending player can bring in planes to fight against bombers defending at a 2. The attacker can bring in escorts to escort his bombers and they attack at 1. The maximum number of defending planes cannot exceed the total number of attacking air units including bombers. Only one round of air combat occurs prior to SBR rolls. The attacker can not bring in more escorts than bombers. Note: The AA gun rolls only against the bombers and not against the escorting fighters. The surviving bombers roll 1D6 which reduces the IPC of the player immediately.
SBR raid is one round and dogfights can be multiple rounds. The pre SBR dogfight is not meant to chew up planes. SOI we just keep the OOB from AAE.
hehe your system is not quite as simple as AAE/AAP
the only bit you took from AAE/AAP is the 2 and 1 combat values
lets stick closer
and use AAP (because I prefer Antiaircraft to remain preemptive)
the only thing is we use AARHE’s aircraft procedure
(that way fighters can’t shield bombers from antiaircraft gun, funny but unrealistic…I guess AAE and AAP DID come out before AAR)
proposed text
Strategic Bombing Run (SBR)
Bomber may perform SBR against any enemy territory. Attacker may send fighters as escorts. Defender may send fighters in the territory to defend. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualities. Defending fighters fight at 2. Attacking fighters fight at 1. Remove caualities. Each surviving bomber roll a die and territory income is reduced by that many IPCs during the next collect income phase.
Counter Air (CA)
I am still thining about this
want simplicity, consistency
Ground Interdiction
I am still thinking about this
want simplicity, consistency
your proposed rule’s refers to “combat reinforcements”
AARHE doesn’t have combat reinforcements since a long while back
we only have non-combat reinforcementsYes this is stripped down. They must be adjacent in order to participate.
The rules no longer have “NC reinforcements” but they do have strategic redeployment.
the stripped down part I think you are referring to phase 3: “Air Reinforcement”
Non-combat Reinforcement is in phase 5 and for land units
yes I did notice your 112508 file did not have the “Reinforcement” rule in phase 5 and only had “Strategic Redeployment” (SR)
SR has previously been an optional rule due to complexity
I wouldn’t agree to have it as a standard rule in the current form, let your idea of putting in your unused movement point idea into SR
regardless, in their current form SR is not a replacement for “Reinforcement” in phase 5
Reinforcement addresses a very different issue
it is due to defender retreat, making defending units under attack can move but untouched defending units may not…hence untouched defending units should be able to relocate
we are not discussing combat sequence yet but I am just want to clarify my position on Reinforcement and Strategic Redeployment
Air Missions overall heading
your text
Air Missions
Each air unit can only perform one air mission per turn. It may not perform normal combat in the same turn. Air missions are declared with normal combat moves. Air missions are resolved before normal combats and before Defensive Air Support air units arrive.
adjustment to AAE/AAP system as you wish
defending air units cannot participate in normal combat
proposed text
Air Missions
Each air unit can only perform one air mission per turn. Air units performing air missions and air units defending against air missions may not partcipate in other combat this turn. Defending air units may retreat if territory control is lost. Air missions are resolved before normal combats and before Air Reinforcement units arrive.
Air units
your text
Land Combat: Air Units
When both sides have air units present air units fight at air combat values. Aerial combat occurs and air units do not attack land units. Hits must be allocated on other air units before transport plane.yes more like OOB
but keep AARHE’s rule of dogfight hits allocated on air units first right?proposed text
Air Units
When both sides have air units present air units fight at air combat values. The hits must be allocated on air units first. Fighters fight at 2 and bombers fight at 1.
ok good. ill go with that.
Dogfights
your text
Dogfights
When planes fight in land battles they now are rolling against each other and allocating other air units as hits before land units can be hit. AS such they have different dogfight values as follows:
Fighters: 3
Fighter-Bomber: 2 ( optional unit)
Bomber: 1
Heavy Bomber: 2 (technology upgrade)
Jet fighters: 4 (technology upgrade)the values I posted were what you had
I am saying I think fighter should be @ 2 or it’ll be bloody
no proposed text
closing this heading as discussed, “air units” heading and “dogfight” heading combined into one small heading
ok fighters are at 2, but fighter bombers are at 1 now.
Antiaircraft
your text
Anti-Air
Each starting factory comes with 1 AA gun and is rolled as follows: count the number of air units flying over and for every 6 air units allocate on hit by lining up the air units and the die roll destroys the unit in the sequence. If you have less than 6 air units, then follow the same procedure, except you need to roll the quantity of planes or less to score a hit. Example: Germany flies 3 fighters over London, so UK player needs to roll 3 or less to hit. Only one AA roll for all the air units.yep like OOB but just cap of 3 rolls per AA gun
of course we keep the old AARHE rule of not shooting at over flying unitsproposed text
Antiaircraft
Air units are only subject to antiaircraft fire at the territory they are attacking. Roll one die against each attacking air unit. You may only roll up to 3 dice per Antiaircraft gun.
ok i agree. fine.
Strategic Bombing Raid
your text
Strategic Bombing Run (SBR)
Bomber may perform SBR against a hostile territory. During SBR attacks the defending player can bring in planes to fight against bombers defending at a 2. The attacker can bring in escorts to escort his bombers and they attack at 1. The maximum number of defending planes cannot exceed the total number of attacking air units including bombers. Only one round of air combat occurs prior to SBR rolls. The attacker can not bring in more escorts than bombers. Note: The AA gun rolls only against the bombers and not against the escorting fighters. The surviving bombers roll 1D6 which reduces the IPC of the player immediately.Quote
SBR raid is one round and dogfights can be multiple rounds. The pre SBR dogfight is not meant to chew up planes. SOI we just keep the OOB from AAE.
hehe your system is not quite as simple as AAE/AAP
the only bit you took from AAE/AAP is the 2 and 1 combat values
OK look at the example where a nation with 1 bomber wants to bomb and has just 1-2 fighters and the other side has 6 fighters…well you can see that the attackers mission will result in failure, which means that the poor nation cant use this strategy. I want anybody to use the SBR at any time regardless of their position. This is compensation for our own escort/ interceptor rules we now use.
l
proposed text
Strategic Bombing Run (SBR)
Bomber may perform SBR against any enemy territory. Attacker may send fighters as escorts. Defender may send fighters in the territory to defend. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualties. Defending fighters fight at 2. Attacking fighters fight at 1. Remove causalities. Each surviving bomber roll a die and territory income is reduced by that many IPCs during the next collect income phase.
yes good.
Counter Air (CA)
I am still thining about this
want simplicity, consistencyGround Interdiction
I am still thinking about this
want simplicity, consistency
in the first case its like an SBR attack but with no bombers. your goal is to kill planes. Attacker at 1, defender at 2
this is a good rule.
In the second case adjacent fighters can assist an attacked territory. fighting at air combat values
Quote
your proposed rule’s refers to “combat reinforcements”
AARHE doesn’t have combat reinforcements since a long while back
we only have non-combat reinforcements
Quote
Yes this is stripped down. They must be adjacent in order to participate.
The rules no longer have “NC reinforcements” but they do have strategic redeployment.
the stripped down part I think you are referring to phase 3: “Air Reinforcement”
Non-combat Reinforcement is in phase 5 and for land units
yes I did notice your 112508 file did not have the “Reinforcement” rule in phase 5 and only had “Strategic Redeployment” (SR)
SR has previously been an optional rule due to complexity
I wouldn’t agree to have it as a standard rule in the current form, let your idea of putting in your unused movement point idea into SR.
Its a great idea and its the only compensation left for the non- inclusion of the “armor moving one space, can use the second MP to retreat in NCM” we got rid of that idea because you felt is was too gamey, but this is a great idea.
regardless, in their current form SR is not a replacement for “Reinforcement” in phase 5
Reinforcement addresses a very different issue
it is due to defender retreat, making defending units under attack can move but untouched defending units may not…hence untouched defending units should be able to relocate
SR points can allocate units that just were in combat to allow the to retreat. SO thats the way we fit in the game the idea of greater movement. I am trying to fix the idea that the defender retreats and leaves the attacker exposed for counterattack.
Air Missions overall heading
your text
Air Missions
Each air unit can only perform one air mission per turn. It may not perform normal combat in the same turn. Air missions are declared with normal combat moves. Air missions are resolved before normal combats and before Defensive Air Support air units arrive.adjustment to AAE/AAP system as you wish
defending air units cannot participate in normal combat
except for adjacent defending air can assist in air defense.
proposed text
Air Missions
Each air unit can only perform one air mission per turn. Air units performing air missions and air units defending against air missions may not participate in other combat this turn. Defending air units may retreat if territory control is lost. Air missions are resolved before normal combats and before Air Reinforcement units arrive.
I am not clear on the last sentence. I think your saying the active player performs all air missions first, while some of these types of mission require the defender to make decisions, so its not a proper thing to say the passive player cant allocate his planes for defensive missions like Air reinforcement or SBR interceptions.
Air units - done
Dogfights - removed, values listed under “Air Units”
Antiaircraft - done
Strategic Bombing Raid
OK look at the example where a nation with 1 bomber wants to bomb and has just 1-2 fighters and the other side has 6 fighters…well you can see that the attackers mission will result in failure
but thats the thing, realistically if your enemy has superior air force and you insist on bombing them…you are simply taking on great risks
your option should be to hit the less guarded territories, or get rockets
Counter Air
in the first case its like an SBR attack but with no bombers. your goal is to kill planes. Attacker at 1, defender at 2
this is a good rule.
yeah no bombers because they are much slower
and unlike SBR there are no bombers to protect
so I think fighters of both side should be fighting at 2
proposed text
_Counter Air (CA)
Fighter may perform CA against any enemy territory. Defender must send at least the same number of air units in the territory to defend. They may not perform Air Reinforcement this turn. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualties. Fighters fight at 2. Bombers fight at 1.
Ground Interdiction
your text
Bomber may make an interdiction attack against land units in a hostile territory. You may bring other air units besides bomber as escorts. AA guns fire before this aerial combat. One cycle of aerial combat occurs between your air units and defending air units at dog fighting values. If a bomber survives it may roll for ground interdiction with die value equal to number of land units performing combat reinforcements now prevented from moving.
In the second case adjacent fighters can assist an attacked territory. fighting at air combat values
I was hoping to be consistent and consider Air Missions to be fast and not defendable by air units coming from Air Reinforcement
maybe the rule doesn’t make sense and should be removed
should it prevent non-combat reinforcement, or should it prevent retreat, or should it require total air superiority
this kind of rule has only appeared in hex games anyway right?
Air Missions
Air missions are resolved before normal combats and before Air Reinforcement units arrive.
I think your saying the active player performs all air missions first, while some of these types of mission require the defender to make decisions, so its not a proper thing to say the passive player cant allocate his planes for defensive missions like Air reinforcement or SBR interceptions.
remember Air Reinforcement is not an air mission but a heading from phase 3: combat move
it is a relocation of Air Units to adjacent territories
so defending fighters coming from adjacent territories can assist in normal combats, but not air missions_
Strategic Bombing Raid
Quote
OK look at the example where a nation with 1 bomber wants to bomb and has just 1-2 fighters and the other side has 6 fighters…well you can see that the attackers mission will result in failure
but thats the thing, realistically if your enemy has superior air force and you insist on bombing them…you are simply taking on great risksyour option should be to hit the less guarded territories, or get rockets
Thats not the option, If a nation only has one factory, then the poor nations cant attack the swarm of fighters. Thats not play balance. I want to encourage players to have the SAME ACCESS to all strategies, because they all dont start with large air forces. IN the war historically UK didnt have the air forces as Germany but still managed to bomb Berlin.
The game must reflect this. And Rockets are not a viable option for the opening period of the game.
Counter Air
Quote
in the first case its like an SBR attack but with no bombers. your goal is to kill planes. Attacker at 1, defender at 2
this is a good rule.
yeah no bombers because they are much slower
and unlike SBR there are no bombers to protect
so I think fighters of both side should be fighting at 2
NO defending are at 2 because they dont need to worry about fuel, escorts have limited time to escort before they need to fly back. The OOB rule got it correct, plus its a compromise from your issue against limiting the defense.
proposed text
Counter Air (CA)
Fighter may perform CA against any enemy territory. Defender must send at least the same number of air units in the territory to defend. They may not perform Air Reinforcement this turn. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualties. Fighters fight at 2. Bombers fight at 1.
I think this would work i note that ONLY in this case both attacker and defender fighters are at 2. I think it should also be at 1 and 2 like in SBR, but in this case the attacker CAN outnumber the defender in total planes. I am right think about it carefully.
Also, The sentence underlined makes no sence to me.
keep it like this:
Defensive Air Support Mission (DAS)
During your enemies’ turn your air units may move to assist your land units defending in adjacent combat situations. DAS are declared after all combat moves are declared and before resolving any combat. DAS may not be performed during USSR player’s special opening turn.
Counter Air Mission (CA)
Air units may make an interdiction attack against air units in a hostile territory. One cycle of aerial combat occurs between your air units and hostile air units at dog fighting values. AA guns fire before this aerial combat. Your air units must retreat to the original territory. The defender may not use air units in a territory targeted by CA for Defensive Air Support up to the number of planes that the attacker brought in to perform CA mission.
Strategic Bombing Run (SBR)
Bomber may perform SBR against a hostile territory. During SBR attacks the defending player can bring in planes to fight against bombers defending at a 2. The attacker can bring in escorts to escort his bombers and they attack at 1. The maximum number of defending planes cannot exceed the total number of attacking air units including bombers. Only one round of air combat occurs prior to SBR rolls. The attacker can not bring in more escorts than bombers. Note: The AA gun rolls only against the bombers and not against the escorting fighters. The surviving bombers roll 1D6 which reduces the IPC of the player immediately.
Ground Interdiction Mission (GI)
Bomber may make an interdiction attack against land units in a hostile territory. You may bring other air units besides bomber as escorts. AA guns fire before this aerial combat. One cycle of aerial combat occurs between your air units and defending air units at dog fighting values. If a bomber survives it may roll for ground interdiction with die value equal to number of land units performing combat reinforcements now prevented from moving.
maybe the rule doesn’t make sense and should be removed
should it prevent non-combat reinforcement, or should it prevent retreat, or should it require total air superiority
this kind of rule has only appeared in hex games anyway right?
The rule prevents the existing units from moving ON THEIR TURN. It makes no claim as to units moving into and or thru the territory. Its very simple and effective use of suppression to prevent forces from advancing. its fine as it is.
This is the original AA rule that we are using.
Fighter Escorts and Interceptors
Fighters can participate in strategic bombing raids. Attacking fighters may escort and protect the bombers, and they can originate from any territory, range permitting. Any or all defending fighters based in a territory that is strategically bombed can participate in the defense of the industrial complex. The number of fighters that will defend is decided after the attacker’s Combat Movement phase is completed and before the Combat phase begins.
After antiaircraft fire is resolved against the attacking air units, if there are any defending fighters an air battle occurs between the attacking and defending air units. This combat is resolved in the same way as a normal combat, with a few exceptions. The fighters have an attack value of 1 and a defense value of 2, and the bombers have no attack value. In addition, the combat lasts for only one round. After the battle, any surviving bombers proceed to carry out the raid as normal.
Fighters participating as either an escort or a defender cannot participate in other battles during that turn. Defending interceptors must return to their original territory. If that territory is captured, the fighters may move one space to land in a friendly territory or on a friendly aircraft carrier. This movement occurs after all of the attacker’s combats have been resolved and before the attackers
Strategic Bombing Raid
Thats not the option, If a nation only has one factory, then the poor nations cant attack the swarm of fighters.
note in AARHE you bomb the territory to destroy income
we also had a rule (contributed by switch) where you bomb the industrial complex to destroy production capacity
IN the war historically UK didnt have the air forces as Germany but still managed to bomb Berlin.
we can think of why and model that
it just seems artifical to limit the size of the escort fleet or intercept fleet
so UK can bomb without losing too much
maybe its due to the length of the dogfight during an SBR being shorter than normal combat
in this case to be realistic we reduce the combat values
0 for escort fighters
1 for intercept fighters
Counter Air
I think this would work i note that ONLY in this case both attacker and defender fighters are at 2.
yes only in CA
attacking fighters in SBR are handicapped as they are escorting the bombers
but in CA attacking fighters are much closer to equal footing
Defender must send at least the same number of air units in the territory to defend.They may not perform Air Reinforcement this turn.
Also, The sentence underlined makes no sence to me.
same as before just worded differently
CA missions lets you attack and tie down defending air units
so if attacker sends 3 fighters, at least the same number of defending air units in the territory are tied down
if the defender has more than 3 air units in the territory he can send them to defend too if he wants
keep it like this:
Defensive Air Support Mission (DAS)…
DAS rule is “Close Air Support” in reality, which is just normal combat in the game
hence we don’t have DAS anymore
what we do have is “Air Reinforcement” in phase 3: combat move
come on, this was only like a week or 2 ago
Counter Air Mission (CA)…
Strategic Bombing Run (SBR)…
hehe you’ve just relisted the rules
we’ll see, still discussing ideas
Ground Interdiction
The rule prevents the existing units from moving ON THEIR TURN. It makes no claim as to units moving into and or thru the territory. Its very simple and effective use of suppression to prevent forces from advancing. its fine as it is.
just saying “its fine as it is” doesn’t add weight to your argument
hopefully you can reply to my concerns directly
I’ve only seen this kind of rule in hex games (squad level) and games with turns representing short time periods
applying it to axis and allies revised…
it doesn’t make sense for entire armies to be pinned by bombers
it doesn’t make sense for bombers to remain in enemy territory for 6 months
D-Day had a GI rule right?
its hex level, short time periods, and Allies have air superiority
Fighter Escorts and Interceptors
Defending interceptors must return to their original territory.
the time frame in AARHE is that air missions are resolved before normal combats,
air missions occur before Air Reinforcement or DAS units arrive
Strategic Bombing Raid
Quote
Thats not the option, If a nation only has one factory, then the poor nations cant attack the swarm of fighters.
note in AARHE you bomb the territory to destroy income
we also had a rule (contributed by switch) where you bomb the industrial complex to destroy production capacity
yes and thats an issue for the next version for AA50HE. If you want to do it now thats fine. But the real point is we want to give equal opportunity for anybody even with one bomber to bomb the enemy and not get wiped out.
Quote
IN the war historically UK didnt have the air forces as Germany but still managed to bomb Berlin.
we can think of why and model that
it just seems artifical to limit the size of the escort fleet or intercept fleet
Yes but its also not realistic to have a situation where the entire bomber force is wiped out because the other guy has 2-3 more planes. If you just got one bomber and can never build another due to the costs it just closes off the strategy for only richer nations, but historically UK bombed Berlin in 1940 and they had a much smaller air force….so its got to be allowed somehow.
so UK can bomb without losing too much
maybe its due to the length of the dogfight during an SBR being shorter than normal combat
in this case to be realistic we reduce the combat values0 for escort fighters
1 for intercept fighters
Lowering the value to Zero im afraid is not good enough, we should just limit the quantities. its got to be 1-2 because thats the minimum, plus its easy to remember the old AAE rule.
Counter Air
Quote
I think this would work i note that ONLY in this case both attacker and defender fighters are at 2.yes only in CA
attacking fighters in SBR are handicapped as they are escorting the bombers
but in CA attacking fighters are much closer to equal footing
ok lets try that. lets see the scripting…
Quote
Defender must send at least the same number of air units in the territory to defend.They may not perform Air Reinforcement this turn.
Quote
Also, The sentence underlined makes no sence to me.
same as before just worded differently
CA missions lets you attack and tie down defending air unitsso if attacker sends 3 fighters, at least the same number of defending air units in the territory are tied down
if the defender has more than 3 air units in the territory he can send them to defend too if he wants
but you write the name MUST… thats not the way to write it out. One is rather limited in CA from performing other missions as the defender unless you have extra planes than the attacker.
Quote
keep it like this:
Defensive Air Support Mission (DAS)…
DAS rule is “Close Air Support” in reality, which is just normal combat in the game
hence we don’t have DAS anymorewhat we do have is “Air Reinforcement” in phase 3: combat move
come on, this was only like a week or 2 ago
yes old terminology. ok CAS
Ground Interdiction
Quote
The rule prevents the existing units from moving ON THEIR TURN. It makes no claim as to units moving into and or thru the territory. Its very simple and effective use of suppression to prevent forces from advancing. its fine as it is.
just saying “its fine as it is” doesn’t add weight to your argument
hopefully you can reply to my concerns directlyI’ve only seen this kind of rule in hex games (squad level) and games with turns representing short time periods
applying it to axis and allies revised…
it doesn’t make sense for entire armies to be pinned by bombers
it doesn’t make sense for bombers to remain in enemy territory for 6 months
Its not that the bombers are “hovering” for 6 months, its that they are blowing the crap out of railroads, trains, roads,transportation centers…anything that effects movement to other fronts. Not to look at thing so literally. Its just the same idea as SBR except the damage is infrastructure thats effects transportation. It can be done at a strategic or tactical level.
Its just air suppression and total control of the sky. At the Bulge the Germans had no air and the tactic stopped the armor dead in its tracks from forward movement to the Meuse.
I guess its the same idea from AA D-Day…well sort of.
Quote
Fighter Escorts and Interceptors
Defending interceptors must return to their original territory.
the time frame in AARHE is that air missions are resolved before normal combats,
air missions occur before Air Reinforcement or DAS units arrive
well just write the mission out is very short sequence like you did before, but real short. The way it was written was not clear.
Strategic Bombing Raid
IL: Thats not the option, If a nation only has one factory, then the poor nations cant attack the swarm of fighters.
tekkyy: note in AARHE you bomb the territory to destroy income
we also had a rule (contributed by switch) where you bomb the industrial complex to destroy production capacity
IL: yes and thats an issue for the next version for AA50HE. If you want to do it now thats fine. But the real point is we want to give equal opportunity for anybody even with one bomber to bomb the enemy and not get wiped out.
no I was reminding you that SBR is performed on a territory not industrial complex in AARHE
ie. you can SBR Western Europe
this is regarding “nation only has one factory”
my stance isn’t to create equal opportunity
as I said before, if a player wants to suicide (inferior airforce performing SBR against superior airforce) its their choice to do so
losses during an SBR are prefectly normal
recall the comparison between the (A) Blitz, (B) V1 rockets, and © Allies strategic bombing compaign
(B) was much more cost effective, but it is not to say (A) or © is stupid
in (A), Germany vs UK, Germany can afford the losses
in ©, US+UK vs Germany, US+UK can afford the losses
Yes but its also not realistic to have a situation where the entire bomber force is wiped out because the other guy has 2-3 more planes.
its realistic if your 1 bomber division was outnumbered by the enemies’ 2-3 fighter divisions
its just suicide, the general wouldn’t have ordered such a move
solution below
but historically UK bombed Berlin in 1940 and they had a much smaller air force….so its got to be allowed somehow.
here we are talking about scale and damage that are orders of magnitude smaller
solution below
Lowering the value to Zero im afraid is not good enough, we should just limit the quantities. its got to be 1-2 because thats the minimum, plus its easy to remember the old AAE rule.
recall an old AARHE rule, where you can perform SBR at 50% effectiveness
we could use this rule, call it Night Bombing or something
we then limit bomber:escort and bomber:interceptor ratio to 1:2 as you wished
Counter Air
ok lets try that. lets see the scripting…
Counter Air (CA)
Fighter may perform CA against any enemy territory. Defender selects at least the same number of air units in the territory to fight. The selected air units may not perform Air Reinforcement this turn. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualties. Fighters fight at 2. Bombers fight at 1. Attacking fighters must retreat to the original territory in Non-combat Move phase.
but you write the name MUST… thats not the way to write it out. One is rather limited in CA from performing other missions as the defender unless you have extra planes than the attacker.
thats because its not optional
if Germany sends 3 fighters on a CA mission to London
UK MUST send at least 3 air units to fight
Ground Interdiction
Its not that the bombers are “hovering” for 6 months, its that they are blowing the crap out of railroads, trains, roads,transportation centers…anything that effects movement to other fronts.
ok we could keep it
but regardless I don’t agree with
The rule prevents the existing units from moving ON THEIR TURN.
it should be preventing movement of enemy land units ON YOUR TURN
ie. “Reinforcement” during phase 5: Non-combat Move
well just write the mission out is very short sequence like you did before, but real short. The way it was written was not clear.
combat move:
1. active players declare combat moves and air missions
2. passive players declare air reinforcement (because X attacking CA units prevents X defending units from performing air reinforcement)
conduct combat:
1. resolve air missions (eg. SBR)
2. resolve normal combat
I am also trying to write it short
hence I just said
Air missions are resolved before normal combats and before Air Reinforcement units arrive.
it could be written differently of course
Strategic Bombing Raid
Quote
IL: Thats not the option, If a nation only has one factory, then the poor nations cant attack the swarm of fighters.
tekkyy: note in AARHE you bomb the territory to destroy income
we also had a rule (contributed by switch) where you bomb the industrial complex to destroy production capacity
IL: yes and thats an issue for the next version for AA50HE. If you want to do it now thats fine. But the real point is we want to give equal opportunity for anybody even with one bomber to bomb the enemy and not get wiped out.
no I was reminding you that SBR is performed on a territory not industrial complex in AARHE
ie. you can SBR Western Europe
this is regarding “nation only has one factory”my stance isn’t to create equal opportunity
as I said before, if a player wants to suicide (inferior airforce performing SBR against superior airforce) its their choice to do solosses during an SBR are perfectly normal
recall the comparison between the (A) Blitz, (B) V1 rockets, and © Allies strategic bombing campaign
(B) was much more cost effective, but it is not to say (A) or © is stupid
in (A), Germany vs UK, Germany can afford the losses
in ©, US+UK vs Germany, US+UK can afford the losses
OK script the rule, but just don’t use that typical language where you have to read the thing 10 times to understand it.
Quote
Yes but its also not realistic to have a situation where the entire bomber force is wiped out because the other guy has 2-3 more planes.
its realistic if your 1 bomber division was outnumbered by the enemies’ 2-3 fighter divisions
its just suicide, the general wouldn’t have ordered such a move
solution below
Quote
but historically UK bombed Berlin in 1940 and they had a much smaller air force….so its got to be allowed somehow.
here we are talking about scale and damage that are orders of magnitude smaller
solution below
Quote
Lowering the value to Zero im afraid is not good enough, we should just limit the quantities. its got to be 1-2 because thats the minimum, plus its easy to remember the old AAE rule.
recall an old AARHE rule, where you can perform SBR at 50% effectiveness
we could use this rule, call it Night Bombing or something
we then limit bomber:escort and bomber:interceptor ratio to 1:2 as you wished
During night bombing their is no fighter defense, so i guess thats the key to allow the equal opportunity. So the SBR must be declared as Day ( which allows unlimited fighter defense) or night which is 50% effective and NO fighter defense.
ok done.
Counter Air
Quote
ok lets try that. lets see the scripting…
Counter Air (CA)
Fighter may perform CA against any enemy territory. Defender selects at least the same number of air units in the territory to fight. The selected air units may not perform Air Reinforcement this turn. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualties. Fighters fight at 2. Bombers fight at 1. Attacking fighters must retreat to the original territory in Non-combat Move phase.
this will work. add it.
Ground Interdiction
Quote
Its not that the bombers are “hovering” for 6 months, its that they are blowing the crap out of railroads, trains, roads,transportation centers…anything that effects movement to other fronts.
ok we could keep it
but regardless I don’t agree with
Quote
The rule prevents the existing units from moving ON THEIR TURN.
it should be preventing movement of enemy land units ON YOUR TURN
ie. “Reinforcement” during phase 5: Non-combat Move
Interdiction:
Procedure:
Bombers are designated to specific territories. A token is placed and it remains in the territory till your next turn. If during the enemy turn he moves units in or out or traces SR thru the territory, then a roll occurs as per the rules.
Quote
well just write the mission out is very short sequence like you did before, but real short. The way it was written was not clear.
combat move:
1. active players declare combat moves and air missions
2. passive players declare air reinforcement (because X attacking CA units prevents X defending units from performing air reinforcement)conduct combat:
1. resolve air missions (eg. SBR)
2. resolve normal combatI am also trying to write it short
hence I just said
Air missions are resolved before normal combats and before Air Reinforcement units arrive.
it could be written differently of course
ok thats fine.
Strategic Bombing Raid
@Imperious:
During night bombing their is no fighter defense, so i guess thats the key to allow the equal opportunity. So the SBR must be declared as Day ( which allows unlimited fighter defense) or night which is 50% effective and NO fighter defense.
ok done.
_Strategic Bombing Run (SBR)
Bomber may perform SBR against any enemy territory. Attacker may send fighters as escorts. Defender may select fighters in the territory to defend. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualties. Defending fighters fight at 2. Attacking fighters fight at 1. Remove causalities. Each surviving bomber roll a die and territory income is reduced by that many IPCs during the next collect income phase.
Night Bombing
Bomber may perform Night Bombing agaisnt any enemy territory. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal. Each bomber roll a die and territory income is reduced by 50% of die value rounded down, during the next collect income phase._
Ground Interdiction
Procedure:
Bombers are designated to specific territories. A token is placed and it remains in the territory till your next turn. If during the enemy turn he moves units in or out or traces SR thru the territory, then a roll occurs as per the rules.
give the full rule, elaborate “a roll occurs as per the rules”
if its like each unit roll to see if the movement was prevented
then it only makes sense for a hex map where a bomber bombs a choke point (a hex cell) while enemy units try to move through
just a while ago you were saying its not bombing the territory for 6 months
rather it just destroyed some roads and rails
don’t rush it
spend some time to think about:
*whether you want to model the bomber actively interdicting (bomb and pin enemy), or passively interdicting (bomb roads and rails)
*how to model the damage/effect, you can’t just give unlimited damage
-for active interdiction, each bomber can only prevents a numer of units
-for passive interdiction, its painful to guage, the enemy will just use another road
*how it will disrupt your ability to invade the territory
I’ve spend the time previously and saw the difficulty hence I sugguested we don’t have this rule
Strategic Bombing Raid
Quote from: Imperious Leader on February 12, 2009, 07:20:14 pm
During night bombing their is no fighter defense, so i guess thats the key to allow the equal opportunity. So the SBR must be declared as Day ( which allows unlimited fighter defense) or night which is 50% effective and NO fighter defense.ok done.
Strategic Bombing Run (SBR)
Bomber may perform SBR against any enemy territory. Attacker may send fighters as escorts. Defender may select fighters in the territory to defend. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualties. Defending fighters fight at 2. Attacking fighters fight at 1. Remove causalities. Each surviving bomber roll a die and territory income is reduced by that many IPCs during the next collect income phase.Night Bombing
Bomber may perform Night Bombing against any enemy territory. Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal. Each bomber roll a die and territory income is reduced by 50% of die value rounded down, during the next collect income phase.
on this last part Night bombing needs a sentence like: " no enemy fighters can intercept night bombers and no aerial combat occurs if night bombing is chosen"
Ground Interdiction
Quote
Procedure:
Bombers are designated to specific territories. A token is placed and it remains in the territory till your next turn. If during the enemy turn he moves units in or out or traces SR thru the territory, then a roll occurs as per the rules.
give the full rule, elaborate “a roll occurs as per the rules”if its like each unit roll to see if the movement was prevented
then it only makes sense for a hex map where a bomber bombs a choke point (a hex cell) while enemy units try to move throughjust a while ago you were saying its not bombing the territory for 6 months
rather it just destroyed some roads and rails
don’t rush it
spend some time to think about:
*whether you want to model the bomber actively interdicting (bomb and pin enemy), or passively interdicting (bomb roads and rails)
Well then in the version of AA50HE this will be most definatly the option because the SBR of factories also effects of SR capacity of the nation.
WE need to make the interdiction a viable but not disastrous form of combat. Id prefer each bomber prevents X number of units from movement freely into or out of the territory. Its definatly something that should be included. Id like to keep it very similar to AA D-Day.
I know you don’t like it but draft something you would go with if included as optional rules.
@Imperious:
on this last part Night bombing needs a sentence like: " no enemy fighters can intercept night bombers and no aerial combat occurs if night bombing is chosen"
ok
WE need to make the interdiction a viable but not disastrous form of combat. Id prefer each bomber prevents X number of units from movement freely into or out of the territory. Its definatly something that should be included. Id like to keep it very similar to AA D-Day.
I know you don’t like it but draft something you would go with if included as optional rules.
prevent X units…ok thats active interdiction
effects are during YOUR turn
it’ll be “out of” the territory not “into”
as you are bombing the territory not neighbouring territories
wonder if it should have [dogfighting]
wonder if it should prevent [retreat]
Ground Interdiction (GI)
Bomber may perform GI against any enemy territory. [Attacker may send fighters as escorts. Defender may select fighters in the territory to defend.] Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualties. [Defending fighters fight at 2. Attacking fighters fight at 1.] Remove causalities. Each surviving bomber roll a die. Defender select a number of land units equal to the die value. They are unable to [Retreat or] perform Reinforcement this turn.
Ground Interdiction (GI)
Bomber may perform GI against any enemy territory. [Attacker may send fighters as escorts. Defender may select fighters in the territory to defend.] Resolve antiaircraft fire as normal and remove casualties. [Defending fighters fight at 2. Attacking fighters fight at 1.] Remove causalities. Each surviving bomber roll a die. Defender select a number of land units equal to the die value. They are unable to [Retreat or] perform Reinforcement this turn.
This could be a one round dogfight. ok so one bomber can prevent up to 6 units from moving OUT of territory or using the territory for Strategic redeployment. Sometimes it makes a difference because you dont have say 6 units in the territory, but you do need to move units thru the territory to another territory ( say from france to poland via Germany)
active interdiction means interdicting movement of enemy units during your turn
so ground interdiction (GI) is not related to strategic redeployment (SR), which is movement of your units during your turn
don’t mix strategic redeployment with reinforcement, which is movement of enemy units (that did not fight) during your turn
air units and air missions added
(GI not there yet)
http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/aarhe/20090224experimental.doc
http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/aarhe/20090224experimental.pdf
beware, it is already 5 and 6 pages respectively
as we discuss the rest of phase 4: conduct combat we must not let complex or unneeded rules remain
ok then lets keep it as you scripted. lets move on to next section.
next section are the combat sequences, hit allocation, and retreat
lets start with land combat
hit allocation
your file didn’t have this section
so I presume you want to remove the rule that tanks hit tanks first?
combat sequence
your file didn’t make changes
I am thinking to let air units fire at the same time as anti-aircraft gun
in LHTR/OOB there are 2 outcomes for anti-aircraft (kill enemy planes before they drop bombs, or fail to shoot them)
in reality there is a 3rd and probably most common outcome (enemy planes dropped bombs and you shot some down)
this also means we don’t have to write a combat sequence
(which scares some players)
we now merely have two small headings to clarify “Conduct opening fire” and “Press Attack or Retreat” of LHTR/OOB’s
1\. Place units on battle board
2\. Conduct opening fire
3\. Remove opening fire casualties
4\. Attacking units fire
5\. Defending units fire
6\. Remove casualties
7\. Press attack or withdraw
8\. Concluding Combat
Step: Conduct opening fire
Air units only fire in opening fire step. After allocating anti-aircraft casualties, roll for attacking air units and allocate casualties. Then roll for defending air units and allocate casualties.
Step: Press attack or withdraw
your proposal
Land Combat Retreats
Either player can retreat after any full combat round. Retreat can be in full or in part. The attackers retreat must be to at least one of the territories the attacker can from. The defender can retreat to any controlled space. The defender always chooses retreat declarations first.
this is functionally fine
Amphibious assault
think we need to make it simpler
what are the most important aspects for you?
for me its
*retreat from amphibious assault by converting to infantry
*no shore bombardment dice, just +1 to infantry on 1-to-1 basis
your proposal
On the first round of any invasion by sea, all defending units fire first on the starting combat round. Invading Infantry are the only land units that may attack on the first round followed by any other units on latter rounds. Attacking pieces are removed and don’t fire in return. After that point combat is conducted normally.
too powerful and unrealistic
its not like the whole defending army had this preemptive power
think its better to just give defender +1
your proposal
In addition, the invading player may still retreat, except all retreating non-infantry units are converted to infantry before embankment on transports.
yeah convert to infantry, thats fine
your proposal
When invading the attacker is limited in the number of land units he may bring into battle by the IPC value of the territory that is invaded. It is also limited to 2 land units per round if the territory invaded is a mountainous or snowy terrain. Each round this number can be increased by this same value until all attacking units are in play. For example: in France the British decide to invade but can only bring in 6 land units the first round, 12 units the second, etc.
don’t think IPC is a good indication
there are more points of landing on the huge coastline of France than the small UK isle
and in the end axis and allies territories are huge
so I tend to only agree with restrictions for “small” territories like Gibraltar and Wake Island
restriction on mountainous terrain is difficult
in the it must be playable as Southern Europe and Japan are mountainous
your proposal
If the American player decided to use the D-Day option, this is doubled so it would be 6 land units per nation.
I notice your D-Day thing, and looking back we haven’t discussed round sequence…I must ask if you are thinking of getting rid of our beloved “all axis, all allies” round sequence?
hit allocation
your file didn’t have this section
so I presume you want to remove the rule that tanks hit tanks first?
yes we get rid of this. its bogging the game down. no more tanks hit tanks…etc
combat sequence
your file didn’t make changes
I am thinking to let air units fire at the same time as anti-aircraft gun
in LHTR/OOB there are 2 outcomes for anti-aircraft (kill enemy planes before they drop bombs, or fail to shoot them)
in reality there is a 3rd and probably most common outcome (enemy planes dropped bombs and you shot some down)this also means we don’t have to write a combat sequence
(which scares some players)
we now merely have two small headings to clarify “Conduct opening fire” and “Press Attack or Retreat” of LHTR/OOB’s
Code:1. Place units on battle board
2. Conduct opening fire
3. Remove opening fire casualties
4. Attacking units fire
5. Defending units fire
6. Remove casualties
7. Press attack or withdraw
8. Concluding Combat
yes i prefer this as well. make it more simple. but you need to add a step where the defender can allocate adjacent planes for support. Also, on item #7: should read Press attack or retreat declarations.
Step: Conduct opening fire
Air units only fire in opening fire step. After allocating anti-aircraft casualties, roll for attacking air units and allocate casualties. Then roll for defending air units and allocate casualties.
yes right
Step: Press attack or withdraw
your proposal
Land Combat Retreats
Either player can retreat after any full combat round. Retreat can be in full or in part. The attackers retreat must be to at least one of the territories the attacker can from. The defender can retreat to any controlled space. The defender always chooses retreat declarations first.
this is functionally fine
ok great.
Amphibious assault
think we need to make it simpler
what are the most important aspects for you?for me its
*retreat from amphibious assault by converting to infantry
*no shore bombardment dice, just +1 to infantry on 1-to-1 basis
your proposal
Quote
On the first round of any invasion by sea, all defending units fire first on the starting combat round. Invading Infantry are the only land units that may attack on the first round followed by any other units on latter rounds. Attacking pieces are removed and don’t fire in return. After that point combat is conducted normally.
too powerful and unrealistic
its not like the whole defending army had this preemptive power
think its better to just give defender +1
The defender needs to get to fire first, but this can be limited to artillery like we have it before.
so:
how bout this?
your proposal
Quote
In addition, the invading player may still retreat, except all retreating non-infantry units are converted to infantry before embankment on transports.
yeah convert to infantry, thats fine
ok
your proposal
Quote
When invading the attacker is limited in the number of land units he may bring into battle by the IPC value of the territory that is invaded. It is also limited to 2 land units per round if the territory invaded is a mountainous or snowy terrain. Each round this number can be increased by this same value until all attacking units are in play. For example: in France the British decide to invade but can only bring in 6 land units the first round, 12 units the second, etc.
don’t think IPC is a good indication
there are more points of landing on the huge coastline of France than the small UK isleand in the end axis and allies territories are huge
so I tend to only agree with restrictions for “small” territories like Gibraltar and Wake Island
They are huge territories but invasions are only performed in narrow sections. The limitations are realistic. playtest it and you will see less invasions, but more stronger invasions rather than raids.
restriction on mountainous terrain is difficult
in the it must be playable as Southern Europe and Japan are mountainous
Invading specific mountain areas is nearly impossible to do with large forces. Japan should not be mountain.
your proposal
Quote
If the American player decided to use the D-Day option, this is doubled so it would be 6 land units per nation.
I notice your D-Day thing, and looking back we haven’t discussed round sequence…I must ask if you are thinking of getting rid of our beloved “all axis, all allies” round sequence?
no not at all. That cant be changed. its great. we should have some rules on multi national forces.
yes i prefer this as well. make it more simple. but you need to add a step where the defender can allocate adjacent planes for support.
thats “Air Reinforcement”, which is declared during “combat move” phase
Also, on item #7: should read Press attack or retreat declarations.
that list was just what LHTR had as a combat sequence
its not a AARHE combat sequence which I am saying we don’t need to make
The defender needs to get to fire first, but this can be limited to artillery like we have it before.
so:
- shore bombardments (defender removes loses)
- defending non-infantry fire ( attacker removes loses)
- attacking units fire
- defending infantry fire
how bout this?
ok we just say defending artillery fire in opening fire in the first cycle of combat
but for shore bombardment, I was sugguesting:
*no shore bombardment dice, just +1 to infantry on 1-to-1 basis
]They are huge territories but invasions are only performed in narrow sections. The limitations are realistic. playtest it and you will see less invasions, but more stronger invasions rather than raids.
what kind of raids are you seeing in your games?
in AARHE you collecting income at end of turn, so UK doesn’t collect income from Western Europe to replace losses unless they can hold it
add that basic shore bombardment change (not an original idea) there would be little incentive to raid?
what I am thinking is your limit does not affect small attacking force, but disadvantage large attacking force
I disagree with the rule as I consider the capturing of beaches and ports to be shorter than the 1st cycle of combat, a small thing in the overall campaign that last several cycles
where majority of the fighting occurs inland
Invading specific mountain areas is nearly impossible to do with large forces. Japan should not be mountain.
territories are labelled “mountainous” in AARHE according to actual geography
if Japan is not to be labelled mountainous than Southern Europe (with a higher % of plains) can’t be mountainous…and than if Southern Europe is not mountainous something else in turn shouldn’t be…
lets make defender advantage (for amphibious assault on mountainous terrain) itself realistic rather than blame other rules
no not at all. That cant be changed. its great. we should have some rules on multi national forces.
well I am not sure OOB or LHTR National Advantages are compatible with AARHE
it wasn’t the intention for players to use OOB National Advantage or Technology in AARHE
