AARHE: Rule files

@Imperious:

1. how did ID rolls do this?  At most your gonna lost one plane unless the other guy is rolling buckets of sixes?

2. he cannot use planes that were shot down in the first round. He must always wait till the second round to allow his planes to hit land units. Reasoning:  on the first turn he must get air superiority and allocate defending planes against your planes. at this point they are on the air battle board. In sequence you first roll ID rolls, then settle air rolls. If by chance he got lucky and shot down 3 planes by rolling 6 six times in a row……THEN that round he got Air superiority, The next round his planes are committed to attack your land units… NOT THE SAME TURN HE GOT AIR SUPERIORITY.

Gah!

We screwed it up again.  Reading your response didn’t make any sense so I went and re-read the rules – we weren’t doing the ID search roles and were just rolling straight kill shots.

On that specific battle he came in with 2 FTR, and the defender rolled double ones (e.g., Industrial Complex)… which really means the planes were spotted and had the potential for a shoot down (1) or retreat (2-3).

Hard lesson… old habits die hard.  Hold over from OOB & AAR.

Thanks for the response IL.  Another night of futility.

@Imperious:

AARHE: Neutrals

AAHRE 4.0 & LITE:  Air Supremacy

Once Air Supremacy is achieved, do FTRs & BMRs still attack during the Opening-Fire phase?  We thought they did, and when we started removing casualties before Main-Round a nasty howl went up.

YES, your starting to figure this out. Once Air Sup. is concluded all planes hits go on land units beginning on the round following the last air combat.

Just to clarify this – ground units that are killed by air units don’t get to fire this round and are removed from play before “Main-round” of combat.

I could have been swayed either way.

@Imperious:

AARHE 4.0 & LITE:  DAS

Yes counter is basically the idea of attacking enemy air fields but its one round. The DAS missions can occur over many rounds, but the advantage is really to both sides. If your the attacker you may want to use CA as a means to pinning down the enemy air units, The benefit is limited because you only get one chance to attack the defender with CA. This works better when you have a smaller air force and your defending because you get to limit your loses.

To answer the question CA prohibits the defender from allocating his planes that hes defending with against your counter air mission. So he cannot use DAS to support battles.

I’m still a bit unsure on this one.  Do combat dice actually get rolled during a CA missions on a 1-1 basis (e.g., 1 round of combat), or does this just tie up FTRs in virtual maneuver?

Just to clarify this – ground units that are killed by air units don’t get to fire this round and are removed from play before “Main-round” of combat.

I could have been swayed either way.

If you got air superiority (which is the round AFTER you last had air to air combat) plane hits are rolled with other land units. The only time planes roll first is during air superiority combat which is only to provide a separate sequence for air combat. Once air superiority is achieved the planes fire with other units. But it is also true that land units cant hit air units.

and this:

When only one side has air units at the beginning of combat cycle, air units’ hits are allocated other land units before Infantry or Airborne Infantry. So the defender must allocate his good pieces as combat loses when the other side has air superiority.

I’m still a bit unsure on this one.  Do combat dice actually get rolled during a CA missions on a 1-1 basis (e.g., 1 round of combat), or does this just tie up FTRs in virtual maneuver?

ok…. You send your fighters to attack some territory that your not attacking with land units (even separated by water). You engage them for ONE round of air combat. Thats it. NOTHING ELSE.

what is the benefit?  In game terms it allows you to foil the possibility of the defender to allocate the planes for DAS mission. Second, it is a way to exchange fighters in battle w/o bringing in land units. So a nation that has a large air force and a small army ( England) can actually take away from of the good German pieces by constantly attacking German air forces. It also gives players the possibility to SBR enemy territories without escorts providing you tie up any enemy air units in range. In historical terms is the only way by which you can have a “battle of Britain”  So to answer your question is a roundabout way, yes your tying up enemy air units which as i said before is like pinning the enemy to a static defense from a dynamic one.

tech die
it hits on 1 or 2
“hits on a 2” is just trying to be inline with original game terminology “defends on a 2”

we need to reword it to say 2 or less to avoid confusion.

ships in “middle of repair”
the current wording lets you defend and repair at the same thing
feedback/comments required

i think to repair a ship you only have to touch a sea zone thats adjacent to your factory except that UK/ USA can repair in  each others factories. So simply you need to just move into the zone during movement. You can move into the zone and continue to move out ( providing you have MP)

I also think we may consider a cost for repair:  roll d6… that = IPC cost to repair, if you roll a 6 you must combine  the first result with a second result. If we do this we can eliminate the rule where the two hit naval units have to be hit a second time before another BB or CA gets a new hit.

what you think?

DAS when under attack?
yes air units can perform DAS even if its own territory is under conventional attack

No they cant. They cant fly away to support other territories if the territory they are in is under attack. If it says this it must be changed back.

only way to stop enemy from declaring DAS with air units at Germany is to use a sufficient number of CA units to perform CA on Germany

yes thats true but what do you mean ‘sufficient’?

note air units defending from a CA still defending normally (in the same territory), and air missions are resolved before normal combat

wait. huh? CA is done against territories that your not bringing in land units. Otherwise if your bringing in planes to support ground units ( GS mission) you must fight multi round air combat for air supremacy. Their is not such thing is CA missions in this event. CA is only a one round affair where the only units involved are air units.

CA stopping DAS
yes CA stops defending air units from performing DAS, though you need X CA units to stop X defending air units from performing DAS

please elaborate? “x ca units to stop x”  where is this in the rules?

IL: CA prohibits the defender from allocating his planes that hes defending with against your counter air mission. So he cannot use DAS to support battles.
not exactly sure what you mean

CA is only plan on plane battle: one round. You cannot perform CA over a territory that your also performing land combat, because that crosses the line of what GS (ground support mission is) CA can deprive the enemy of using his air units to support other land battles as part of his DAS missions he can allocate as the passive player. Its a way to pin his forces , but you are trying to mix this one round CA thing, with the multi round GS missions where you get air superiority first.

Air Supermacy and opening-fire
the idea is for air units to preempt land units
by the way it is dogfighting that we wanted to be longer and  happen in parallel to land units fighting on the ground but functionally its close enough to have air units fire in opening-fire, to be simpler

IL: You cannot CA a territory your already attacking. CA is for territories that your NOT attacking with ground units and ONLY by air.
actually we don’t that restriction
also CA is an air mission henf resolved before normal combat, one cycle aerial combat and then goes home

That last point is crucial. I think the other poster had a major issue of whether planes are staying to fight against land targets. Thats method makes sence. Make sure its clear in the rules, because i don’t find that line in the rules either.

If this were the case, then I’d just send in CA to tie up FTRs so there could be no Air Supremacy and I wouldn’t have to worry about bad odds with my FTRs (e.g., Dogfight ATK 2 vs. 3 DEF)
CA ties down only the same number of defending air units
and during the CA defending air units still have better odds

ok this makes sence… make sure its clear in all versions . I don’t think its written that way but it should be.

IL:Yes all defending planes defend for air superiority, however, bombers do not perform DAS mission. that is to say they don’t fly over to assist with defending territories.
no this is not in the rules
if you want to revise tell me which of the full list of air units can and cannot perform DAS

all units except bombers ( including jet bombers)… If they are in a territory thats under attack, they can retreat like any other defending unit.

Just to clarify this – ground units that are killed by air units don’t get to fire this round and are removed from play before “Main-round” of combat.
yep, the combat sequence specified when do you remove casualties.

ok i read that wrong.

These air rules are so freaking cool – yet so difficult to grasp.  They look great on paper, until you start moving pieces and rolling dice.

However, they really do spice up the game and make for a very realistic and multi-faceted game, while maintaining some semblance of playability.

So, in order to understand air here’s what I think I’ve heard you all say:

If your territory is under a combined assault (e.g., land and air)

• You cannot provide DAS out of that country
• Additional DAS units from adjacent territories may fly in to assist

If your territory is under CA assault (e.g., one cycle of air combat - air units only)

• You must respond to enemy air units on a 1-to-1 basis with friendly air units
    – “For the same number of attacking CA air units, the same
          number of defending air units in the territory may not perform DAS.”
• Excess units to the 1-to-1 ratio may still provide DAS to adjacent territories

Question:  Can the defender put more than 1-to-1 into the CA-CA mission.

• Attacker sends 1 CA into India with 2 defending planes.  Does India get 2:1 or is it limited to only 1:1?

• Bierwagen

I do like the rolling of a die to repair capital ships.  This whole thing is a bit complicated trying to remember when it got hit, did it move this turn, what is considered a move, can it fire an repair if it didn’t move, where can it repair… etc., etc.

The rule lawyers I play with can dream up questions faster than you can answer them ;-)

So, I’d recommend using IL suggestion of having ships next to a VC/IC roll with the roll of a die at the beginning of all rounds for repair costs.  With a 6 being extreme damage and rolling again like he suggested.

Much easier to remember.

I do however like the kill the smoking one first.  If I were an enemy I’d kill the listing capital ship first to ensure it went down.

• Bierwagen

I’m still taking issue with air superiority casualties concept.

Allowing air units to remove casualties before they get to fire seems very powerful considering that ARM already gets a +1 after air superiority is achieved.  I thought the goal was to give a bonus for combined arms and if you didn’t have the ARM, then tough.

The casualties are already at a disadvantage because they can’t hit air units back, they should at least get a parting shot at whatever ground units are rolling over them.

Any insights into this one appreciated.

• IL seemed to indicate that once Air Superiority is achieved that in the next round of combat Air revert to fighting in the Main-Round sequence of combats with normal values (e.g., you still can’t hit them with ground units but all casualties are removed at the same time).

• Tekkyy indicated that wasn’t the case and that Air units still fire in Opening-fire and remove casualties before Main-Round sequence.

I could make a case for either way.  Tekkyy’s way says, we don’t need ARM to make Air Superiority powerful because air removes casualties first in Opening-fire (e.g., an advantage)

Confused in San Antonio!

• Bierwagen (reaches for another bier)

These air rules are so freaking cool – yet so difficult to grasp.  They look great on paper, until you start moving pieces and rolling dice.

However, they really do spice up the game and make for a very realistic and multi-faceted game, while maintaining some semblance of playability.

So, in order to understand air here’s what I think I’ve heard you all say:

If your territory is under a combined assault (e.g., land and air)

• You cannot provide DAS out of that country
• Additional DAS units from adjacent territories may fly in to assist

correct.

If your territory is under CA assault (e.g., one cycle of air combat - air units only)

• You must respond to enemy air units on a 1-to-1 basis with friendly air units
    – “For the same number of attacking CA air units, the same
          number of defending air units in the territory may not perform DAS.”
• Excess units to the 1-to-1 ratio may still provide DAS to adjacent territories

yes exactly, the rule is at a 1: 1 basis to remove cheaters to the system of traping 6 planes by sending one to die. Its the most realistic option of modeling this.

Question:  Can the defender put more than 1-to-1 into the CA-CA mission.

• Attacker sends 1 CA into India with 2 defending planes.  Does India get 2:1 or is it limited to only 1:1?

The attacker can being in less planes than the defender but of course the extra defending planes are not “pinned” down and and provide DAS to other territories in range.

The defender can only defend CA with what he has and yes he can defer allocation to DAS and simply defend against the enemy CA but its not very useful because DAS is multi round ( potentially getting more rolls) and CA is just one round. But i do see your point. The answer is yes.

I think your really getting this down. Once you got it clear i think you’ll be a great asset to AARHE.

I do like the rolling of a die to repair capital ships.  This whole thing is a bit complicated trying to remember when it got hit, did it move this turn, what is considered a move, can it fire an repair if it didn’t move, where can it repair… etc., etc.

The rule lawyers I play with can dream up questions faster than you can answer them wink

Yes i too am thinking that same idea. I think we should go to a rolling for damage system so its easy to remember and you dont have to worry about how you allocate BB hits… It will be done.

So, I’d recommend using IL suggestion of having ships next to a VC/IC roll with the roll of a die at the beginning of all rounds for repair costs.  With a 6 being extreme damage and rolling again like he suggested.

Yep thats it. And remember you just have to touch the SZ adjacent to the territory with IC, and you can repair at allies IC, except not Soviet and Western allies can mix, nor German and Japan cannot repair at each others ports.

Much easier to remember.

I do however like the kill the smoking one first.  If I were an enemy I’d kill the listing capital ship first to ensure it went down.

Just like you said its easier to remember and you no longer have to remember to allocate BB hits evenly ( or carriers or cruisers)

naval repair
ok so you guys want
*roll 1d6 for cost
*no more “allocate hits on damaged units first”

yes and if you roll a 6 on the first roll, you must roll a second roll and add both to pay this in IPC.  Also, if you decide to repair the BB you cant roll and see the result first… you must roll during the purchase phase allocating the potential IPC that are spent to repair on the turn your rolling.

IL you mention move in and move out if you still have movement points
so you saying want to have instant repair?

Yes repair is automatic by merely passing thru or entering the sea zone adjacent to factory. So its even possible to repair and then attack the enemy at full strength in the same turn or even do shore bombardment.

CA on a territory you are also attacking
CA is separate and (like all air missions) are resolved before normal combats
you can SBR, CA, GI + perform a conventional attack on a territory
(anyway if we are revising this I would prefer we make it a simpler system…all combat in the territory happens together)

DAS for all units except bomber
ok I’ll make that change

ok great

Land Combat Sequence
air units (and Anti-Air) always fire in opening-fire
that makes it less confusing right?

yes exactly.

Naval Repair
that might be a bit complicated to word
can we just keep all of it inside the “purchase” phase?
especially since we are now spending IPC

yes its clearly in purchase phase…

confirming adjacency requirment…
*any sea zone adjacent to a coastline VC, or
*any sea zone adjacent to territory with an IC
right?

the second one…adjacent to IC

CA
I hope you know what I mean
all air missions (SBR, CA, and GI) are separate from normal combat
you are allowed to attack Germany AND perform 1 or more air missions on Germany in the same turn

air units always fire in opening-fire in land combat
note that is not a change, just clarifying the current rules

ok when you say “attack germany” and perform GI….huh? thats the same thing The air units are trying to attack German ground units but need to clear the sky of enemy air, and once this occurs the following round they hit land targets.

the second part is right–the  “clarification”

the second one…adjacent to IC
um, can’t we repair at VCs anymore?

no because now it costs money and we have to create enough of a choice, so sometimes you may allocate hits on a destroyer instead of the BB or CA… because we are allowing total choice on hit allocations ( except transport and sub). If we make it too easy to repair then it would prove only a minor inconvenience to have the BB or CA repaired.

Quote
ok when you say “attack germany” and perform GI….huh? thats the same thing The air units are trying to attack German ground units but need to clear the sky of enemy air, and once this occurs the following round they hit land targets.
wait a minute…
it is clearly stated that air missions are separate from normal combat and resolved before normal combat

there is nothing to it, it is simply Axis and Allies structure
eg. in OOB when you SBR Germany you have to declare as such
otherwise your Bomber is making a normal attack on Germany

yes but we don’t allow planes to be hit by land units, so its not ‘simple AA structure’, but rather independent but concurrent combat actions. Planes attacking Germany cant do so until the sky is clear, then hits go on land units

because we are allowing total choice on hit allocations ( except transport and sub). If we make it too easy to repair then it would prove only a minor inconvenience to have the BB or CA repaired.
ah I see, you should have mentiond it when you sugguested the change
I didn’t know what you were thinking

note, this means you can’t repair at naval outpost like at Hawaii anymore
is that ok?

Hawaii….should be an exception, along with gibrater  and suez and dakar.

Perhaps i need to add a few port symbols to the map?

now if you want independent concurrent combat actions to include Air Missions you’ll have to devise a system and we add it to AARHE
might be complex though
for starters…
defender needs to assign which combat to defend against
or artificially disallow attacker from performing Air Missions on a territory if attacker (or team member) is also attacking it in (normal combat) same turn

Its not complicated. Your just performing the air mission separately. Those air missions have nothing to do with sending units into an enemy territory unless your bringing in air units and need to fight for air superiority which presents a quasi connected battle insofar as once the sky is clear the air units can begin hitting land units.

Otherwise AARHE does treat them separately already. The process of performing air missions with the object of pinning down enemy air forces is not artificial, but rather a modeled form of warfare where your shaping the battlefield to conform to ultimate success of the land campaign, much like the allies did just before D-Day by taking out all the German air units before landing troops and saturation bombing etc…