Would Germany have much chance of sinking them with the Atlantic just a couple of SZs wide?
Give subs a first-strike capability and you may be talking, but this will not make USW worthwhile.
AARHE: Rule files
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tech die
it hits on 1 or 2
“hits on a 2” is just trying to be inline with original game terminology “defends on a 2”we need to reword it to say 2 or less to avoid confusion.
ships in “middle of repair”
the current wording lets you defend and repair at the same thing
feedback/comments requiredi think to repair a ship you only have to touch a sea zone thats adjacent to your factory except that UK/ USA can repair in each others factories. So simply you need to just move into the zone during movement. You can move into the zone and continue to move out ( providing you have MP)
I also think we may consider a cost for repair: roll d6… that = IPC cost to repair, if you roll a 6 you must combine the first result with a second result. If we do this we can eliminate the rule where the two hit naval units have to be hit a second time before another BB or CA gets a new hit.
what you think?
DAS when under attack?
yes air units can perform DAS even if its own territory is under conventional attackNo they cant. They cant fly away to support other territories if the territory they are in is under attack. If it says this it must be changed back.
only way to stop enemy from declaring DAS with air units at Germany is to use a sufficient number of CA units to perform CA on Germany
yes thats true but what do you mean ‘sufficient’?
note air units defending from a CA still defending normally (in the same territory), and air missions are resolved before normal combat
wait. huh? CA is done against territories that your not bringing in land units. Otherwise if your bringing in planes to support ground units ( GS mission) you must fight multi round air combat for air supremacy. Their is not such thing is CA missions in this event. CA is only a one round affair where the only units involved are air units.
CA stopping DAS
yes CA stops defending air units from performing DAS, though you need X CA units to stop X defending air units from performing DASplease elaborate? “x ca units to stop x” where is this in the rules?
IL: CA prohibits the defender from allocating his planes that hes defending with against your counter air mission. So he cannot use DAS to support battles.
not exactly sure what you meanCA is only plan on plane battle: one round. You cannot perform CA over a territory that your also performing land combat, because that crosses the line of what GS (ground support mission is) CA can deprive the enemy of using his air units to support other land battles as part of his DAS missions he can allocate as the passive player. Its a way to pin his forces , but you are trying to mix this one round CA thing, with the multi round GS missions where you get air superiority first.
Air Supermacy and opening-fire
the idea is for air units to preempt land units
by the way it is dogfighting that we wanted to be longer and happen in parallel to land units fighting on the ground but functionally its close enough to have air units fire in opening-fire, to be simplerIL: You cannot CA a territory your already attacking. CA is for territories that your NOT attacking with ground units and ONLY by air.
actually we don’t that restriction
also CA is an air mission henf resolved before normal combat, one cycle aerial combat and then goes homeThat last point is crucial. I think the other poster had a major issue of whether planes are staying to fight against land targets. Thats method makes sence. Make sure its clear in the rules, because i don’t find that line in the rules either.
If this were the case, then I’d just send in CA to tie up FTRs so there could be no Air Supremacy and I wouldn’t have to worry about bad odds with my FTRs (e.g., Dogfight ATK 2 vs. 3 DEF)
CA ties down only the same number of defending air units
and during the CA defending air units still have better oddsok this makes sence… make sure its clear in all versions . I don’t think its written that way but it should be.
IL:Yes all defending planes defend for air superiority, however, bombers do not perform DAS mission. that is to say they don’t fly over to assist with defending territories.
no this is not in the rules
if you want to revise tell me which of the full list of air units can and cannot perform DASall units except bombers ( including jet bombers)… If they are in a territory thats under attack, they can retreat like any other defending unit.
Just to clarify this – ground units that are killed by air units don’t get to fire this round and are removed from play before “Main-round” of combat.
yep, the combat sequence specified when do you remove casualties.ok i read that wrong.
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These air rules are so freaking cool – yet so difficult to grasp. They look great on paper, until you start moving pieces and rolling dice.
However, they really do spice up the game and make for a very realistic and multi-faceted game, while maintaining some semblance of playability.
So, in order to understand air here’s what I think I’ve heard you all say:
If your territory is under a combined assault (e.g., land and air)
- You cannot provide DAS out of that country
- Additional DAS units from adjacent territories may fly in to assist
If your territory is under CA assault (e.g., one cycle of air combat - air units only)
- You must respond to enemy air units on a 1-to-1 basis with friendly air units
– “For the same number of attacking CA air units, the same
number of defending air units in the territory may not perform DAS.” - Excess units to the 1-to-1 ratio may still provide DAS to adjacent territories
Question: Can the defender put more than 1-to-1 into the CA-CA mission.
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Attacker sends 1 CA into India with 2 defending planes. Does India get 2:1 or is it limited to only 1:1?
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Bierwagen
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I do like the rolling of a die to repair capital ships. This whole thing is a bit complicated trying to remember when it got hit, did it move this turn, what is considered a move, can it fire an repair if it didn’t move, where can it repair… etc., etc.
The rule lawyers I play with can dream up questions faster than you can answer them ;-)
So, I’d recommend using IL suggestion of having ships next to a VC/IC roll with the roll of a die at the beginning of all rounds for repair costs. With a 6 being extreme damage and rolling again like he suggested.
Much easier to remember.
I do however like the kill the smoking one first. If I were an enemy I’d kill the listing capital ship first to ensure it went down.
- Bierwagen
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I’m still taking issue with air superiority casualties concept.
Allowing air units to remove casualties before they get to fire seems very powerful considering that ARM already gets a +1 after air superiority is achieved. I thought the goal was to give a bonus for combined arms and if you didn’t have the ARM, then tough.
The casualties are already at a disadvantage because they can’t hit air units back, they should at least get a parting shot at whatever ground units are rolling over them.
Any insights into this one appreciated.
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IL seemed to indicate that once Air Superiority is achieved that in the next round of combat Air revert to fighting in the Main-Round sequence of combats with normal values (e.g., you still can’t hit them with ground units but all casualties are removed at the same time).
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Tekkyy indicated that wasn’t the case and that Air units still fire in Opening-fire and remove casualties before Main-Round sequence.
I could make a case for either way. Tekkyy’s way says, we don’t need ARM to make Air Superiority powerful because air removes casualties first in Opening-fire (e.g., an advantage)
Confused in San Antonio!
- Bierwagen (reaches for another bier)
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These air rules are so freaking cool – yet so difficult to grasp. They look great on paper, until you start moving pieces and rolling dice.
However, they really do spice up the game and make for a very realistic and multi-faceted game, while maintaining some semblance of playability.
So, in order to understand air here’s what I think I’ve heard you all say:
If your territory is under a combined assault (e.g., land and air)
- You cannot provide DAS out of that country
- Additional DAS units from adjacent territories may fly in to assist
correct.
If your territory is under CA assault (e.g., one cycle of air combat - air units only)
- You must respond to enemy air units on a 1-to-1 basis with friendly air units
– “For the same number of attacking CA air units, the same
number of defending air units in the territory may not perform DAS.” - Excess units to the 1-to-1 ratio may still provide DAS to adjacent territories
yes exactly, the rule is at a 1: 1 basis to remove cheaters to the system of traping 6 planes by sending one to die. Its the most realistic option of modeling this.
Question: Can the defender put more than 1-to-1 into the CA-CA mission.
- Attacker sends 1 CA into India with 2 defending planes. Does India get 2:1 or is it limited to only 1:1?
The attacker can being in less planes than the defender but of course the extra defending planes are not “pinned” down and and provide DAS to other territories in range.
The defender can only defend CA with what he has and yes he can defer allocation to DAS and simply defend against the enemy CA but its not very useful because DAS is multi round ( potentially getting more rolls) and CA is just one round. But i do see your point. The answer is yes.
I think your really getting this down. Once you got it clear i think you’ll be a great asset to AARHE.
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I do like the rolling of a die to repair capital ships. This whole thing is a bit complicated trying to remember when it got hit, did it move this turn, what is considered a move, can it fire an repair if it didn’t move, where can it repair… etc., etc.
The rule lawyers I play with can dream up questions faster than you can answer them wink
Yes i too am thinking that same idea. I think we should go to a rolling for damage system so its easy to remember and you dont have to worry about how you allocate BB hits… It will be done.
So, I’d recommend using IL suggestion of having ships next to a VC/IC roll with the roll of a die at the beginning of all rounds for repair costs. With a 6 being extreme damage and rolling again like he suggested.
Yep thats it. And remember you just have to touch the SZ adjacent to the territory with IC, and you can repair at allies IC, except not Soviet and Western allies can mix, nor German and Japan cannot repair at each others ports.
Much easier to remember.
I do however like the kill the smoking one first. If I were an enemy I’d kill the listing capital ship first to ensure it went down.
Just like you said its easier to remember and you no longer have to remember to allocate BB hits evenly ( or carriers or cruisers)
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rest assured I am doing the changelog thing
tech dice
yeah I’ll be changing it to say die hit at “X or less”
its at a couple of places so I’ll look thru itnaval repair
ok so you guys want
*roll 1d6 for cost
*no more “allocate hits on damaged units first”IL you mention move in and move out if you still have movement points
so you saying want to have instant repair?DAS even when territory under attack (but not CA)
the rules is like this because the idea is that air force is VERY mobile
the only way force an engagement to do a CAX CA units prevent X units performing DAS
you were confused before but from the most recent comments I take it you understandCA on a territory you are also attacking
CA is separate and (like all air missions) are resolved before normal combats
you can SBR, CA, GI + perform a conventional attack on a territory
(anyway if we are revising this I would prefer we make it a simpler system…all combat in the territory happens together)DAS for all units except bomber
ok I’ll make that changeLand Combat Sequence
air units (and Anti-Air) always fire in opening-fire
that makes it less confusing right? -
naval repair
ok so you guys want
*roll 1d6 for cost
*no more “allocate hits on damaged units first”yes and if you roll a 6 on the first roll, you must roll a second roll and add both to pay this in IPC. Also, if you decide to repair the BB you cant roll and see the result first… you must roll during the purchase phase allocating the potential IPC that are spent to repair on the turn your rolling.
IL you mention move in and move out if you still have movement points
so you saying want to have instant repair?Yes repair is automatic by merely passing thru or entering the sea zone adjacent to factory. So its even possible to repair and then attack the enemy at full strength in the same turn or even do shore bombardment.
CA on a territory you are also attacking
CA is separate and (like all air missions) are resolved before normal combats
you can SBR, CA, GI + perform a conventional attack on a territory
(anyway if we are revising this I would prefer we make it a simpler system…all combat in the territory happens together)DAS for all units except bomber
ok I’ll make that changeok great
Land Combat Sequence
air units (and Anti-Air) always fire in opening-fire
that makes it less confusing right?yes exactly.
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Naval Repair
that might be a bit complicated to word
can we just keep all of it inside the “purchase” phase?
especially since we are now spending IPCconfirming adjacency requirment…
*any sea zone adjacent to a coastline VC, or
*any sea zone adjacent to territory with an IC
right?CA
I hope you know what I mean
all air missions (SBR, CA, and GI) are separate from normal combat
you are allowed to attack Germany AND perform 1 or more air missions on Germany in the same turnair units always fire in opening-fire in land combat
note that is not a change, just clarifying the current rules -
Naval Repair
that might be a bit complicated to word
can we just keep all of it inside the “purchase” phase?
especially since we are now spending IPCyes its clearly in purchase phase…
confirming adjacency requirment…
*any sea zone adjacent to a coastline VC, or
*any sea zone adjacent to territory with an IC
right?the second one…adjacent to IC
CA
I hope you know what I mean
all air missions (SBR, CA, and GI) are separate from normal combat
you are allowed to attack Germany AND perform 1 or more air missions on Germany in the same turnair units always fire in opening-fire in land combat
note that is not a change, just clarifying the current rulesok when you say “attack germany” and perform GI….huh? thats the same thing The air units are trying to attack German ground units but need to clear the sky of enemy air, and once this occurs the following round they hit land targets.
the second part is right–the “clarification”
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the second one…adjacent to IC
um, can’t we repair at VCs anymore?
ok when you say “attack germany” and perform GI….huh? thats the same thing The air units are trying to attack German ground units but need to clear the sky of enemy air, and once this occurs the following round they hit land targets.
wait a minute…
it is clearly stated that air missions are eparate from normal combat and resolved before normal combatthere is nothing to it, it is simply Axis and Allies structure
eg. in OOB when you SBR Germany you have to declare as such
otherwise your Bomber is making a normal attack on Germany -
the second one…adjacent to IC
um, can’t we repair at VCs anymore?no because now it costs money and we have to create enough of a choice, so sometimes you may allocate hits on a destroyer instead of the BB or CA… because we are allowing total choice on hit allocations ( except transport and sub). If we make it too easy to repair then it would prove only a minor inconvenience to have the BB or CA repaired.
Quote
ok when you say “attack germany” and perform GI….huh? thats the same thing The air units are trying to attack German ground units but need to clear the sky of enemy air, and once this occurs the following round they hit land targets.
wait a minute…
it is clearly stated that air missions are separate from normal combat and resolved before normal combatthere is nothing to it, it is simply Axis and Allies structure
eg. in OOB when you SBR Germany you have to declare as such
otherwise your Bomber is making a normal attack on Germanyyes but we don’t allow planes to be hit by land units, so its not ‘simple AA structure’, but rather independent but concurrent combat actions. Planes attacking Germany cant do so until the sky is clear, then hits go on land units
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because we are allowing total choice on hit allocations ( except transport and sub). If we make it too easy to repair then it would prove only a minor inconvenience to have the BB or CA repaired.
ah I see, you should have mentiond it when you sugguested the change
I didn’t know what you were thinkingnote, this means you can’t repair at naval outpost like at Hawaii anymore
is that ok?yes but we don’t allow planes to be hit by land units, so its not ‘simple AA structure’, but rather independent but concurrent combat actions. Planes attacking Germany cant do so until the sky is clear, then hits go on land units
yes AARHE certainly changed some aspects of AA structure
but in my context I was referring to OOB’s distinction between SBR and “normal combat”
and correspondingly AARHE’s distinction between Air Missions and “normal combat”ok when you say “attack germany” and perform GI….huh? thats the same thing
hence attack Germany and peform SBR/CA/GI on Germany is not the same thing
and that you can perform SBR/CA/GI on Germany even if you attack Germany this turnnow if you want independent concurrent combat actions to include Air Missions you’ll have to devise a system and we add it to AARHE
might be complex though
for starters…
defender needs to assign which combat to defend against
or artifically disallow attacker from performing Air Missions on a territory if attacker (or team member) is also attacking it in (normal combat) same turn -
because we are allowing total choice on hit allocations ( except transport and sub). If we make it too easy to repair then it would prove only a minor inconvenience to have the BB or CA repaired.
ah I see, you should have mentiond it when you sugguested the change
I didn’t know what you were thinkingnote, this means you can’t repair at naval outpost like at Hawaii anymore
is that ok?Hawaii….should be an exception, along with gibrater and suez and dakar.
Perhaps i need to add a few port symbols to the map?
now if you want independent concurrent combat actions to include Air Missions you’ll have to devise a system and we add it to AARHE
might be complex though
for starters…
defender needs to assign which combat to defend against
or artificially disallow attacker from performing Air Missions on a territory if attacker (or team member) is also attacking it in (normal combat) same turnIts not complicated. Your just performing the air mission separately. Those air missions have nothing to do with sending units into an enemy territory unless your bringing in air units and need to fight for air superiority which presents a quasi connected battle insofar as once the sky is clear the air units can begin hitting land units.
Otherwise AARHE does treat them separately already. The process of performing air missions with the object of pinning down enemy air forces is not artificial, but rather a modeled form of warfare where your shaping the battlefield to conform to ultimate success of the land campaign, much like the allies did just before D-Day by taking out all the German air units before landing troops and saturation bombing etc…
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Hawaii….should be an exception, along with gibrater and suez and dakar.
Perhaps i need to add a few port symbols to the map?yeah I realise Hawaii has a substantial naval facility
but Gibraltar, Suez, or Dakar…are they on same scale?Its not complicated. Your just performing the air mission separately.
actually in current rules air missions are separate and prior to normal combat
I believe you wanted them to be relate more closely to normal combatThose air missions have nothing to do with sending units into an enemy territory unless your bringing in air units and need to fight for air superiority which presents a quasi connected battle insofar as once the sky is clear the air units can begin hitting land units.
Otherwise AARHE does treat them separately already.
I don’t precisely know what you mean by the “unless” bit
currently air missions are resolved prior to normal combat, so the functioning of the air missions are not related to whether we are performing normal combat on GermanyThe process of performing air missions with the object of pinning down enemy air forces is not artificial, but rather a modeled form of warfare where your shaping the battlefield to conform to ultimate success of the land campaign, much like the allies did just before D-Day by taking out all the German air units before landing troops and saturation bombing etc…
Allies didn’t take out all the German air units right?
They just achieved air superiority so German air attack on Allied troops were insigificant?In terms of pinning “down enemy air forces”…
AARHE’s dogfight system is just that. Defending air units can’t hit attacking land units until they achieve air superiority.
Meanwhile CA mission on a territory prevents defending air units (1-to-1) from relocating with DAS rule.So is these something we can see should be allowed but can’t be done in AARHE?
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Hawaii….should be an exception, along with gibrater and suez and dakar.
Perhaps i need to add a few port symbols to the map?
yeah I realise Hawaii has a substantial naval facility
but Gibraltar, Suez, or Dakar…are they on same scale?Dakar was the french main port, Port Said ( suez was major uk port), Gibralter was less important but a stopover for convoy to and from africa
Quote
The process of performing air missions with the object of pinning down enemy air forces is not artificial, but rather a modeled form of warfare where your shaping the battlefield to conform to ultimate success of the land campaign, much like the allies did just before D-Day by taking out all the German air units before landing troops and saturation bombing etc…
Allies didn’t take out all the German air units right?
They just achieved air superiority so German air attack on Allied troops were insignificant?They missed two just like 2 me-109, otherwise in the days leading up to the big jumpoff german air cover over france was eradicated to facilitate the invasions. They had to get rid of all areas because if they focused on Normandy it would give away the plot.
In terms of pinning “down enemy air forces”…
AARHE’s dogfight system is just that. Defending air units can’t hit attacking land units until they achieve air superiority.
Meanwhile CA mission on a territory prevents defending air units (1-to-1) from relocating with DAS rule.yes right. lets just get it clear in the rules.
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remember how we changed it to defender make retreat decisions first
in naval combat it felt weird
because defender choose to retreat/press-on first hence they get to choose which SZ to run toDakar was the french main port, Port Said ( suez was major uk port), Gibralter was less important but a stopover for convoy to and from africa
well thats no good
they are nothing compared to HawaiiThey had to get rid of all areas because if they focused on Normandy it would give away the plot.
whether they want to give it away was their decision
we just want to see if air missions should be before, after, or concurrent to [normal] combat -
Ok you came back…whew…
remember how we changed it to defender make retreat decisions first
in naval combat it felt weird
because defender choose to retreat/press-on first hence they get to choose which SZ to run toQuote
Dakar was the french main port, Port Said ( suez was major uk port), Gibralter was less important but a stopover for convoy to and from africa
well thats no good
they are nothing compared to HawaiiQuote
They had to get rid of all areas because if they focused on Normandy it would give away the plot.
whether they want to give it away was their decision
we just want to see if air missions should be before, after, or concurrent to [normal] combatwhat do you propose? no change?
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Can Japan bridge troops over during the reinforment phase of the non-combat move?
e.g., transport moves from sz60 -> sz61 and loads up a tank and troop and drops them into Manchuria during the reinforcement phase?
Seems to be within the scope of a piece only moving to an adjacent zone during this phase.
Thanks in advance!
- Bierwagen
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Technology Transfer:
US develops Hv. Bombers & UK finishes ASW on the same turn.
According to the rules, they can each transfer a tech to each other. Seems a bit much. I wanted to limit it to one tech transfer each turn.
“One progress box of minor technology (3 or less progress boxes) may be selected for transfer between US/UK and Germany/Italy/Japan per direction per turn”.
Is this just to try and shut the game quicker as it progresses?
Any thoughts?
- Bierwagen
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