AARHE: Rule files

[Bierwagen]

I’m still taking issue with air superiority casualties concept.

Allowing air units to remove casualties before they get to fire seems very powerful considering that ARM already gets a +1 after air superiority is achieved.  I thought the goal was to give a bonus for combined arms and if you didn’t have the ARM, then tough.

The casualties are already at a disadvantage because they can’t hit air units back, they should at least get a parting shot at whatever ground units are rolling over them.

Any insights into this one appreciated.

• IL seemed to indicate that once Air Superiority is achieved that in the next round of combat Air revert to fighting in the Main-Round sequence of combats with normal values (e.g., you still can’t hit them with ground units but all casualties are removed at the same time).

• Tekkyy indicated that wasn’t the case and that Air units still fire in Opening-fire and remove casualties before Main-Round sequence.

I could make a case for either way.  Tekkyy’s way says, we don’t need ARM to make Air Superiority powerful because air removes casualties first in Opening-fire (e.g., an advantage)

Confused in San Antonio!

• Bierwagen (reaches for another bier)

[Imperious Leader]

These air rules are so freaking cool – yet so difficult to grasp.  They look great on paper, until you start moving pieces and rolling dice.

However, they really do spice up the game and make for a very realistic and multi-faceted game, while maintaining some semblance of playability.

So, in order to understand air here’s what I think I’ve heard you all say:

If your territory is under a combined assault (e.g., land and air)

• You cannot provide DAS out of that country
• Additional DAS units from adjacent territories may fly in to assist

correct.

If your territory is under CA assault (e.g., one cycle of air combat - air units only)

• You must respond to enemy air units on a 1-to-1 basis with friendly air units
    – “For the same number of attacking CA air units, the same
          number of defending air units in the territory may not perform DAS.”
• Excess units to the 1-to-1 ratio may still provide DAS to adjacent territories

yes exactly, the rule is at a 1: 1 basis to remove cheaters to the system of traping 6 planes by sending one to die. Its the most realistic option of modeling this.

Question:  Can the defender put more than 1-to-1 into the CA-CA mission.

• Attacker sends 1 CA into India with 2 defending planes.  Does India get 2:1 or is it limited to only 1:1?

The attacker can being in less planes than the defender but of course the extra defending planes are not “pinned” down and and provide DAS to other territories in range.

The defender can only defend CA with what he has and yes he can defer allocation to DAS and simply defend against the enemy CA but its not very useful because DAS is multi round ( potentially getting more rolls) and CA is just one round. But i do see your point. The answer is yes.

I think your really getting this down. Once you got it clear i think you’ll be a great asset to AARHE.

[Imperious Leader]

I do like the rolling of a die to repair capital ships.  This whole thing is a bit complicated trying to remember when it got hit, did it move this turn, what is considered a move, can it fire an repair if it didn’t move, where can it repair… etc., etc.

The rule lawyers I play with can dream up questions faster than you can answer them wink

Yes i too am thinking that same idea. I think we should go to a rolling for damage system so its easy to remember and you dont have to worry about how you allocate BB hits… It will be done.

So, I’d recommend using IL suggestion of having ships next to a VC/IC roll with the roll of a die at the beginning of all rounds for repair costs.  With a 6 being extreme damage and rolling again like he suggested.

Yep thats it. And remember you just have to touch the SZ adjacent to the territory with IC, and you can repair at allies IC, except not Soviet and Western allies can mix, nor German and Japan cannot repair at each others ports.

Much easier to remember.

I do however like the kill the smoking one first.  If I were an enemy I’d kill the listing capital ship first to ensure it went down.

Just like you said its easier to remember and you no longer have to remember to allocate BB hits evenly ( or carriers or cruisers)

[tekkyy]

rest assured I am doing the changelog thing

tech dice
yeah I’ll be changing it to say die hit at “X or less”
its at a couple of places so I’ll look thru it

naval repair
ok so you guys want
*roll 1d6 for cost
*no more “allocate hits on damaged units first”

IL you mention move in and move out if you still have movement points
so you saying want to have instant repair?

DAS even when territory under attack (but not CA)
the rules is like this because the idea is that air force is VERY mobile
the only way force an engagement to do a CA

X CA units prevent X units performing DAS
you were confused before but from the most recent comments I take it you understand

CA on a territory you are also attacking
CA is separate and (like all air missions) are resolved before normal combats
you can SBR, CA, GI + perform a conventional attack on a territory
(anyway if we are revising this I would prefer we make it a simpler system…all combat in the territory happens together)

DAS for all units except bomber
ok I’ll make that change

Land Combat Sequence
air units (and Anti-Air) always fire in opening-fire
that makes it less confusing right?

[Imperious Leader]

naval repair
ok so you guys want
*roll 1d6 for cost
*no more “allocate hits on damaged units first”

yes and if you roll a 6 on the first roll, you must roll a second roll and add both to pay this in IPC.  Also, if you decide to repair the BB you cant roll and see the result first… you must roll during the purchase phase allocating the potential IPC that are spent to repair on the turn your rolling.

IL you mention move in and move out if you still have movement points
so you saying want to have instant repair?

Yes repair is automatic by merely passing thru or entering the sea zone adjacent to factory. So its even possible to repair and then attack the enemy at full strength in the same turn or even do shore bombardment.

CA on a territory you are also attacking
CA is separate and (like all air missions) are resolved before normal combats
you can SBR, CA, GI + perform a conventional attack on a territory
(anyway if we are revising this I would prefer we make it a simpler system…all combat in the territory happens together)

DAS for all units except bomber
ok I’ll make that change

ok great

Land Combat Sequence
air units (and Anti-Air) always fire in opening-fire
that makes it less confusing right?

yes exactly.

[tekkyy]

Naval Repair
that might be a bit complicated to word
can we just keep all of it inside the “purchase” phase?
especially since we are now spending IPC

confirming adjacency requirment…
*any sea zone adjacent to a coastline VC, or
*any sea zone adjacent to territory with an IC
right?

CA
I hope you know what I mean
all air missions (SBR, CA, and GI) are separate from normal combat
you are allowed to attack Germany AND perform 1 or more air missions on Germany in the same turn

air units always fire in opening-fire in land combat
note that is not a change, just clarifying the current rules

[Imperious Leader]

Naval Repair
that might be a bit complicated to word
can we just keep all of it inside the “purchase” phase?
especially since we are now spending IPC

yes its clearly in purchase phase…

confirming adjacency requirment…
*any sea zone adjacent to a coastline VC, or
*any sea zone adjacent to territory with an IC
right?

the second one…adjacent to IC

CA
I hope you know what I mean
all air missions (SBR, CA, and GI) are separate from normal combat
you are allowed to attack Germany AND perform 1 or more air missions on Germany in the same turn

air units always fire in opening-fire in land combat
note that is not a change, just clarifying the current rules

ok when you say “attack germany” and perform GI….huh? thats the same thing The air units are trying to attack German ground units but need to clear the sky of enemy air, and once this occurs the following round they hit land targets.

the second part is right–the  “clarification”

[tekkyy]

the second one…adjacent to IC

um, can’t we repair at VCs anymore?

ok when you say “attack germany” and perform GI….huh? thats the same thing The air units are trying to attack German ground units but need to clear the sky of enemy air, and once this occurs the following round they hit land targets.

wait a minute…
it is clearly stated that air missions are eparate from normal combat and resolved before normal combat

there is nothing to it, it is simply Axis and Allies structure
eg. in OOB when you SBR Germany you have to declare as such
otherwise your Bomber is making a normal attack on Germany

[Imperious Leader]

the second one…adjacent to IC
um, can’t we repair at VCs anymore?

no because now it costs money and we have to create enough of a choice, so sometimes you may allocate hits on a destroyer instead of the BB or CA… because we are allowing total choice on hit allocations ( except transport and sub). If we make it too easy to repair then it would prove only a minor inconvenience to have the BB or CA repaired.

Quote
ok when you say “attack germany” and perform GI….huh? thats the same thing The air units are trying to attack German ground units but need to clear the sky of enemy air, and once this occurs the following round they hit land targets.
wait a minute…
it is clearly stated that air missions are separate from normal combat and resolved before normal combat

there is nothing to it, it is simply Axis and Allies structure
eg. in OOB when you SBR Germany you have to declare as such
otherwise your Bomber is making a normal attack on Germany

yes but we don’t allow planes to be hit by land units, so its not ‘simple AA structure’, but rather independent but concurrent combat actions. Planes attacking Germany cant do so until the sky is clear, then hits go on land units

[tekkyy]

because we are allowing total choice on hit allocations ( except transport and sub). If we make it too easy to repair then it would prove only a minor inconvenience to have the BB or CA repaired.

ah I see, you should have mentiond it when you sugguested the change
I didn’t know what you were thinking

note, this means you can’t repair at naval outpost like at Hawaii anymore
is that ok?

yes but we don’t allow planes to be hit by land units, so its not ‘simple AA structure’, but rather independent but concurrent combat actions. Planes attacking Germany cant do so until the sky is clear, then hits go on land units

yes AARHE certainly changed some aspects of AA structure

but in my context I was referring to OOB’s distinction between SBR and “normal combat”
and correspondingly AARHE’s distinction between Air Missions and “normal combat”

ok when you say “attack germany” and perform GI….huh? thats the same thing

hence attack Germany and peform SBR/CA/GI on Germany is not the same thing
and that you can perform SBR/CA/GI on Germany even if you attack Germany this turn

now if you want independent concurrent combat actions to include Air Missions you’ll have to devise a system and we add it to AARHE
might be complex though
for starters…
defender needs to assign which combat to defend against
or artifically disallow attacker from performing Air Missions on a territory if attacker (or team member) is also attacking it in (normal combat) same turn

[Imperious Leader]

because we are allowing total choice on hit allocations ( except transport and sub). If we make it too easy to repair then it would prove only a minor inconvenience to have the BB or CA repaired.
ah I see, you should have mentiond it when you sugguested the change
I didn’t know what you were thinking

note, this means you can’t repair at naval outpost like at Hawaii anymore
is that ok?

Hawaii….should be an exception, along with gibrater  and suez and dakar.

Perhaps i need to add a few port symbols to the map?

now if you want independent concurrent combat actions to include Air Missions you’ll have to devise a system and we add it to AARHE
might be complex though
for starters…
defender needs to assign which combat to defend against
or artificially disallow attacker from performing Air Missions on a territory if attacker (or team member) is also attacking it in (normal combat) same turn

Its not complicated. Your just performing the air mission separately. Those air missions have nothing to do with sending units into an enemy territory unless your bringing in air units and need to fight for air superiority which presents a quasi connected battle insofar as once the sky is clear the air units can begin hitting land units.

Otherwise AARHE does treat them separately already. The process of performing air missions with the object of pinning down enemy air forces is not artificial, but rather a modeled form of warfare where your shaping the battlefield to conform to ultimate success of the land campaign, much like the allies did just before D-Day by taking out all the German air units before landing troops and saturation bombing etc…

[tekkyy]

Hawaii….should be an exception, along with gibrater  and suez and dakar.
Perhaps i need to add a few port symbols to the map?

yeah I realise Hawaii has a substantial naval facility
but Gibraltar, Suez, or Dakar…are they on same scale?

Its not complicated. Your just performing the air mission separately.

actually in current rules air missions are separate and prior to normal combat
I believe you wanted them to be relate more closely to normal combat

Those air missions have nothing to do with sending units into an enemy territory unless your bringing in air units and need to fight for air superiority which presents a quasi connected battle insofar as once the sky is clear the air units can begin hitting land units.

Otherwise AARHE does treat them separately already.

I don’t precisely know what you mean by the “unless” bit
currently air missions are resolved prior to normal combat, so the functioning of the air missions are not related to whether we are performing normal combat on Germany

The process of performing air missions with the object of pinning down enemy air forces is not artificial, but rather a modeled form of warfare where your shaping the battlefield to conform to ultimate success of the land campaign, much like the allies did just before D-Day by taking out all the German air units before landing troops and saturation bombing etc…

Allies didn’t take out all the German air units right?
They just achieved air superiority so German air attack on Allied troops were insigificant?

In terms of pinning “down enemy air forces”…
AARHE’s dogfight system is just that. Defending air units can’t hit attacking land units until they achieve air superiority.
Meanwhile CA mission on a territory prevents defending air units (1-to-1) from relocating with DAS rule.

So is these something we can see should be allowed but can’t be done in AARHE?

[Imperious Leader]

Hawaii….should be an exception, along with gibrater  and suez and dakar.
Perhaps i need to add a few port symbols to the map?
yeah I realise Hawaii has a substantial naval facility
but Gibraltar, Suez, or Dakar…are they on same scale?

Dakar was the french main port, Port Said ( suez was major uk port), Gibralter was less important but a stopover for convoy to and from africa

Quote
The process of performing air missions with the object of pinning down enemy air forces is not artificial, but rather a modeled form of warfare where your shaping the battlefield to conform to ultimate success of the land campaign, much like the allies did just before D-Day by taking out all the German air units before landing troops and saturation bombing etc…
Allies didn’t take out all the German air units right?
They just achieved air superiority so German air attack on Allied troops were insignificant?

They missed two just like 2 me-109, otherwise in the days leading up to the big jumpoff german air cover over france was eradicated to facilitate the invasions. They had to get rid of all areas because if they focused on Normandy it would give away the plot.

In terms of pinning “down enemy air forces”…
AARHE’s dogfight system is just that. Defending air units can’t hit attacking land units until they achieve air superiority.
Meanwhile CA mission on a territory prevents defending air units (1-to-1) from relocating with DAS rule.

yes right. lets just get it clear in the rules.

[tekkyy]

remember how we changed it to defender make retreat decisions first
in naval combat it felt weird
because defender choose to retreat/press-on first hence they get to choose which SZ to run to

Dakar was the french main port, Port Said ( suez was major uk port), Gibralter was less important but a stopover for convoy to and from africa

well thats no good
they are nothing compared to Hawaii

They had to get rid of all areas because if they focused on Normandy it would give away the plot.

whether they want to give it away was their decision
we just want to see if air missions should be before, after, or concurrent to [normal] combat

[Imperious Leader]

Ok you came back…whew…

remember how we changed it to defender make retreat decisions first
in naval combat it felt weird
because defender choose to retreat/press-on first hence they get to choose which SZ to run to

Quote
Dakar was the french main port, Port Said ( suez was major uk port), Gibralter was less important but a stopover for convoy to and from africa
well thats no good
they are nothing compared to Hawaii

Quote
They had to get rid of all areas because if they focused on Normandy it would give away the plot.
whether they want to give it away was their decision
we just want to see if air missions should be before, after, or concurrent to [normal] combat

what do you propose? no change?

[Bierwagen]

Can Japan bridge troops over during the reinforment phase of the non-combat move?

e.g., transport moves from sz60 -> sz61 and loads up a tank and troop and drops them into Manchuria during the reinforcement phase?

Seems to be within the scope of a piece only moving to an adjacent zone during this phase.

Thanks in advance!

• Bierwagen

[Bierwagen]

Technology Transfer:

US develops Hv. Bombers & UK finishes ASW on the same turn.

According to the rules, they can each transfer a tech to each other.  Seems a bit much.  I wanted to limit it to one tech transfer each turn.

“One progress box of minor technology (3 or less progress boxes) may be selected for transfer between US/UK and Germany/Italy/Japan per direction per turn”.

Is this just to try and shut the game quicker as it progresses?

Any thoughts?

• Bierwagen

[Bierwagen]

Air attack limitations of 2 out and 2 back really hampers Germany ability to fight in Africa.  You used to be able to attack Anglo-Egypt and land in Lybia.  Removing that option changes the dynamics of that whole theater of war.

Was this done intentionally?

Any insights appreciated.

[Bierwagen]

While Xenophobia is in effect can the Russian sub fight together with the UK/US fleet.  Xenophobia seems to only work one way – STAY OUT OF RUSSIA…

Russia can attack into Persia and India alongside US/UK troops and DAS out there as well – correct?

Our rule lawyers are at it again.

• Bierwagen

[Bierwagen]

O.k. I know I’m mix’ing and matching rules - but after 14 hours of playing over the weekend, we’ve integrated stuff from AARHE  Lite.

So, here’s the next question on Tech Dice.

Do Germany & US have to announce up front what they are rolling for, or can they roll one die and then choose the next roll based off the results of the first.

Rule states:  “Assign free and purchased dice [ on page 6 ] to technologies before rolling.”

Rule lawyers argued they were assigning them before they rolled, just one at a time vs. the opponents who said you have to announce all dice up front independent of the outcome of each other.

• Bierwagen