Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris Totally agreed regarding carriers being superior. I didn’t see that he still had the BB in 109, so definitely no need for another. I usually make sure my fleets have one BB. I have mixed feelings on subs in this scenario. In general I usually think they’re close to the best offensive naval piece, but I wonder if building subs could be less helpful than usual given the need to defend against air raid. Subs would definitely help kill the Italian fleet though. Appreciate the critiques, always glad to learn from more experienced folks!

Yeah, this is an unusual time with no German Navy, although Italy does have a fair bit. Subs are great at soaking up damage in a mixed Navy+air force battle. If Germany goes Dark Skies, we are going to need more carriers. Nothing else is going to withstand the attack of 20-30 planes.

Certainly a couple of American subs would be a useful component of the Atlantic fleet build.

For the US to attack effectively in the Atlantic, they will need some fleet, otherwise German subs will deny them landings. This would probably be the turn to build a carrier and destroyer for the Atlantic for that reason. I don’t like the idea of not spending in the Pacific but you might want to consider dropping a transport or two in the East so you can build a sub or two in the Pacific. Normally, my Pacific builds are going to be 1 transport + at least one carrier + subs and air and I don’t like to get behind the Japanese in Carrier builds. But Europe may require it and your strength in China can help contain Japan for a turn.

Another option (to get Gibraltar quickly) is to move the two carriers and a destroyer built in 10 to 89, land hte Hawaii fighters on them and then build a bunch of transports. You can build more navy and air for the pacific side too but threaten Gibraltar with 5 air and 8-12 land units. Building another bomber or two might be an option too. He probably can hold it, but he would have to leave most of the German air there. And the Italian fleet would then be exposed if it moved with a transport to strengthen Gibraltar as British subs and air could reach. At the very least this forces the Germans to focus on their West and may give the Soviets more room to maneuver and Egypt more time. And you might get Gibraltar back out of it next turn. The danger is what it does in the Pacific, but given that you are holding Yunnan, and that much of his fleet is too far away to stack caroline Islands, it may be worth it. The more I think about it, the more likely that this would be my choice, but I would want to think carefully about what happens in the Pacific and make sure I’m not setting up to lose Hawaii. I wouldn’t do Caroline Islands if I did this.

The British build I think is likely a factory in Persia and a carrier if possible along with inf in Cairo. And you can pull the fleet back to the Suez and bring as much air in range as possible. This might mean the UK air in China would go to the Caucasus even if it costs the bonus for a turn.

Actually, it might be hard for him to hold Gibraltar this way. You would not only have the US attack, but the US carriers offer a landing spot for the UK air. Instead of my previous buy suggestion, I might go with a UK transport and carrier and wait on the Persia Factory. Because he only has 4 inf that can be in Gibraltar, he is then trading German air against Allied land units.

A naval base in central america would also give your fleet more flexibility, although I’m not sure I would want to build that so soon.

And for the UK, I wouldn’t move all the UK air to Caucasus but a fighter and tac which can then use the carrier to land in the Med if the opportunity is realized. All the subs can go to 91 or if you hit his destroyer with your air, to 92. I would do the latter actually so the subs can reach 97. You can keep both Egypt and TransJordan so he can’t block the fleet in the Suez. It forces Italy to bring the fleet back to 97 and to spend to protect it.

Actually not sure if the UK air to Caucasus since other air from UK can land on the carrier in 97. But something to consider. And I might consider moving both allied bombers and the UK air in the med to Malta so every sea zone is in reach of several UK air along with the subs.

A US build of 5 transports and a bomber for the Atlantic and the move I set out below would let you threaten Gibraltar with 12 land and 6 air using the units they can pick up. You can then still build 2 subs a fighter and an inf for the Pacific. The inf could be picked up along with a AA by the transport in Hawaii. You might not need so much for the Atlantic in which case you could change some of that spending to pacific builds or build a naval base so the carriers could rush back to Hawaii as needed.

@farmboy Morocco will likely be captured by Italy this round. There won’t be a landing spot for the bomber to land from E USA. If he stacks Gibraltar with planes, he will be able to hold it for one more more round at a minimum. It is going to be a challenge to dislodge him, especially with UK and Russia facing the squash from Japan.

True, but I still think it is the way to go. Building 1 bomber isn’t a problem since if he commits to holding it, then he is going to have to build an airbase and you need air to counter the scramble. And if he attacks Morocco without landing the inf, there is some risk to him as well. Plus, with the UK air in Malta, the fleet back in the Suez, and the subs in 92, the Italian fleet would not be safe in 97 without significant support, let alone anywhere else in the Med.

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

@farmboy Morocco will likely be captured by Italy this round. There won’t be a landing spot for the bomber to land from E USA. If he stacks Gibraltar with planes, he will be able to hold it for one more more round at a minimum. It is going to be a challenge to dislodge him, especially with UK and Russia facing the squash from Japan.

Possibly

I just did a practice turn to see what the end result would look like. There would be a number of things that I would still want to think about here. These would include the distribution of units between Yunnan and India and whether the fleets in 54 and 109 are safe. 63 and 106 are also options there. I didn’t stack Malta as I had initially planned as I thought that was too risky. And I decided that because the Japan fleet is in the South I could afford to not build the naval base, but still a point to consider. I also assumed the inf on the transport off Hawaii was there in error and edited it on to Hawaii. But it might be too late to do that or not an error. And sorry if this is annoying. I just had some time and no other turns to play and enjoyed the procrastination. allied turns tutor game.tsvg

@trulpen

Basically a minimal investment in the Atlantic on Turn 1 would have save 4 transports, two carriers with full air on it on the second round? Hmmm, hmmm!:)

@Omega1759 I just can’t fathom spending 50 in the Atlantic and having the game look like this at this point. Italy should have been crushed with that much extra units.

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

@Omega1759 I just can’t fathom spending 50 in the Atlantic and having the game look like this at this point. Italy should have been crushed with that much extra units.

To crush Italy now it will take over 100 IPC of Italy spend in the Atlantic. And even with that as of now he can reinforce Gibraltar pretty hard. He would need at least 5 loaded transport + lots of air support by the time he gets ready to assault Gibraltar. Trouble is that Axis air both defends on land + can counter-attack the navy + transports ferry back and forth (vs coming in a single strike). The Axis can spend 1 IPC for every 2 or 3 IPC spent to retake Gibraltar (not mentioning loss of UK NO and gain on Italy NO). This Gibraltar grab is worth at least 30 IPC per turn. It also renders the UK air force and navy completely useless!

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris

2 loaded carriers = 52.
4 loaded transports = 56
1 destroyer = 8

Total = 116. Yet this is not adequate, not enough to take Gibraltar even if that 116 IPC existed. This is the cost to let Italy get 2 transports and leave it with a substantial air force.

@Omega1759 I do think that the Axis will be forced to leave Gibraltar soon because defending it starts distracting Germany from the even more attack into Russia or Egypt. I think that he will be gone in another two rounds. Still, that is a huge amount of extra income for Italy during this time.

I have no idea why the UK Med fleet ran towards India. I don’t see what it will do before it inevitably goes back to the Med. The 5 PU bonus for no Allied ships in the Med is a killer bonus for Italy.

Math wrong, 2 loaded carriers worth a lot more than this… 72! 136 IPCs with no results whatsoever. Might as well go full bombers with the US to have more flexibility.

Clearly by building navy with Japan he’s looking to do the typical "Japan spends 16 on a carrier and the US needs to respond by spending more than 36 by buying a carrier, 2 fighters + some more stuff to compensate for the defense vs. offense capability + disadvantage of not being close to home island. The US is rendered useless by logistics here.

@Omega1759 I was talking about spending the 50 PU bid in the Atlantic/Africa and failing to do any significant attacks against Italy on the first round. Playing an entirely defensive game is a guaranteed loss for the Allies.

@Omega1759 I have never done the “Japan skips China” plan. Does he buy lots of bombers to project power into India, the Money Islands, and Russia simultaneously?

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris

Italy can reinforce with 4 ground units per turn (for now, probably 6 units per turn next turn) and many of the ground units are already on the board. There are already 2 Italian fighters on the board. I don’t think the German fighters are necessarily needed on the Eastern front. It might just need that Moscow falls a bit later or we head down the middle east.