AARHE: Phase 3: land Combat

So that would be defending air units retreat straight away when defender loses/retreats all land units?

+++++++When either side retreats then all combat is over… including aerial. Air units are available to support ground troops or they have their own purpose. They can either SBR on enemy factories or attack/ sink enemy units… They do not just “have a dogfight” without some larger purpose other than shoot down other enemy fighters.

That would be unrealistic. The attacker without access to air field can fight on and fight while defender has to retreat as soon as its air field is lost?

++++++++ HUH? forget the airfield thing. Planes land on any grass… if the enemy comes close those planes just move farther away on another field of grass. Check out the movie “battle of Britain” Planes are only there to support ground forces or protect bombers during SBR as escorts.

Wouldn’t my retreat-on-next-reload be better?

And No I don’t think the attacker has complete freedom on how long the battle can take. But defender has.

++++ under the proposed combat system either side may retreat partial or in whole. Each side has the choice to move away.

I just don’t want UK attack Germany with 1 FTR killing 5, 10, or 15 ARM. Planes are powerful but they can’t be reload in the same manner as infantry and tanks.

++++++ this cannot happen because as i stated … once land combat between land forces is over… all planes just buzz off.

…“battle of Britain” Planes are only there to support ground forces or protect bombers during SBR as escorts.
Support ground forces? Thats UK right? What about German side? I thought they didn’t invade by land?

They did not invade… they did SBR and fought aerial combat… thats the only other case where planes fight each other, because escorts are engaging defending fighters that are going after the bombers. Thats consistent with OOB and what were are doing.

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++++++++ HUH? forget the airfield thing. Planes land on any grass… if the enemy comes close those planes just move farther away on another field of grass.
Yes they can just land on grass, don’t need an air field.
But it would be pretty good logistics to fly across the British channel and quickly establish a mini air base to reload planes?

Those logistics is represented by the defenders getting better defense over their own territory, while the attackers over say britain have only 30 minutes to dogfight before they have to fly back.

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I just don’t want UK attack Germany with 1 FTR killing 5, 10, or 15 ARM. Planes are powerful but they can’t be reload in the same manner as infantry and tanks.
++++++ this cannot happen because as i stated … once land combat between land forces is over… all planes just buzz off.
Wait…so we can’t attack with purely air forces anymore? Thats quite big. You won’t be able to slowly pick off ground forces with air strikes anymore. Like we can’t pick off troops on islands before an easy landing.

Yes you will what will happen is the attacker will select territories where he will enjoy air superiority and for at least one round the defender will take a beating before retreating. Otherwise the air units will fight it out and following this its possible for a round of clear air superiourity and attacks on these targets. We cant just let air units just keep attacking ground forces round after the round. the defender has to be able to retreat, besides if they retreat in full the attacker gets that “free round” on them anyway. playtest it it works.

“Then it doesn’t explain the bombers 4/1…”

Those bomber values are in either combat as the attacker against ground units ( when no enemy planes are around) and secondly, the value against intercepting fighters in aerial combat ( dogfights). If land forces are attacking say a lone bomber ( presumably at your airfield)  it also defends at a one.

German planes had 30 minutes over england… thats why in those aerial combat values the defense gets a 2 value, while attackers get only a two. The endurance thing is built into these values. WE simply cant install some idea of on/off rules of attack, land,refuel, take off again etc…because we are dealing with a strategic game not an operational level wargame.

“Can’t air units keep attacking ground forces now? Thats back to an older endurance question.”

Not if the defender has decided to retire. Otherwise dont you see the choas that would develop? Everybody would buy planes only. Each side has to have the opportunity to retreat with grace. In a modern game perhaps if it was not a strategic level… that might be possible. But in ww2 recon of the enemy position was not very sucessfull so planes could jot j

Oh no. Again just read this:

Land Combat Sequence Summary:

1. All attacking artillery units fire first preemptively on the first round and can conduct one of two forms of combat as follows: 1) artillery units can make a special attack that does not require that they move into the territory as follows: They may fire one “salvo” from a territory they reside from and into an enemy territory for one round only. This attack is considered preemptive and the defender cannot roll in its defense. 2) A second more common method is to attack in conjunction with other attacking units and fight in multiple rounds of combat .However; only during the first combat round they fire in simultaneous fashion. Any ground forces hit as a result of the first artillery bombardment attack are now removed from play.

2. If attacking air units are brought into battle over a territory with a Victory City or an Industrial Complex, then these can be fired upon by Anti- Aircraft defenses. (See Anti- Aircraft defense).  In any event the hits are taken preemptively on these planes before moving on to the next step.  If the attacker has brought in air units, then they must engage defending air units separately each combat round until only one side has any air units left. This can be accomplished by one side destroying the enemy or retreating their own air units. During each round where ground combat continues and only one side has air units, those remaining air forces can attack ground forces with preemptive rolls each combat round. Land units cannot attack planes in any manner, except in territories that contain an Industrial Complex (this would be rolled before the start of the first combat round).All ground forces hit as a result of aerial attack are now removed from play and in this case the owner of those ground units has a choice of which ground units that may be taken as loses.

3. After each ground combat round the attacker followed by the defender rolls one D6 for each engaged unit trying to hit at or lower than its attack factor. Each hit caused by an Infantry unit can only be applied to an infantry unit, while armor unit hits must be applied to any defending armor units first before any other unit can be selected as causality. Armor units also include artillery types of units.

4. The defender then rolls for his defending units including those selected as causalities again trying to roll at or lower than each unit’s defense value. Second, each defending combat unit rolls for each unit using their defense value. Lastly, the defending player removes all hits first, followed by the attacking players’ casualties.  The attacker must remove loses in the same manner as required by the defender.

5. The attacker followed by the defender can now make retreat declarations. All units engaged in combat have a voluntary retreat option. Full or partial retreats by either side are allowed after the first round of combat and only the currently engaged units’ can fire at each other. Retreating units do not get to fire as they retreat however; attacking units get one free “parting shot” roll on all defending units and they receive no return fire. The defender can declare to retreat a portion of his forces and leave a few units behind to “cover” the retreat. The retreating units do not get to fire, but the units left to fight still roll on defense. Additional casualties incurred are removed from those units that retreated. All units left to fight still roll on defense in the normal fashion.

So 1 fighter is all you need you defend against 10 armor!
Fortunately 1 fighter + 1 infantry is not enough to attack and take a territory with 10 armor. (Due to improved modelling, the small invading land force will die very quickly).

++++where are you getting this? if one fighter decided to attack 10 armor, and the defender had no planes… then the plane would get one shot hitting a tank and the balance of tanks would run away and retreat. Whats not realistic about that?

I know you can retreat. But we’ll have someone attack 10 armor with 1 fighter. The defender would retreat their armor. And then you think about what this is modelling in the real world…

+++++ that is modeling an accurate scenario… look at the 2nd panzer division when it got within 5 kilometers of the Meuse. It got a wooping by lots of air power and retreated.

UK has air superiority and attack German with some fighters and German retreats all the way to Berlin! 
In reality German was a tough nut to crack even with their Luffwaffe down.

explain this further… no clear how do they attack? SBR? with land units or without?

Bombing campaigns were great in WWII by you still need time to perform the bombing campaigns. Soften the enemy over time.

+++++++++ yes right and many of those SBR’s can occur because now we have modified aerial combat values so your airforce wont get chewed up after 1-2 such attacks. Remember all SBR’s are one round of air combat followed by bombers dropping bombs and everything returning home. the system is very much like axis and allies europe except i dont use their values for escorts or interceptors.

Automatic retreat
Oooh I think this was added without discussion?
++++++++++ sorry i forgot to delete that stuff. i fixed it.

OK easy… In any attacks involving land units attacking enemy help territory by air units, the defender must retreat after one round of combat against these attacking units. So the land forces have to survive one round of getting hit by planes.

IN any attack where the defending units are destroyed but their still remains defending fighters… they also get one free round of combat against the attacking units. Of course all these “free rounds” against land units cannot result in either case of any hits against planes. Only air power can take out air power.

ALL i can say is to keep it simple… If we must then any attacks by ground forces against lone planes and the planes just either have to leave ( they cant be used for control of territories so technically they cant or should not participate in any battle) So the consequence is they must just retreat > their is no combat in this case. I dont like the 3 round thing because it is too arbitrary? why three? why just not any or none.

“That doesn’t address why lone attacking planes can fight or fight-on while lone defending planes can’t.”

Attacking planes are the active players prerogative they are what you get to do on your turn. Defending planes have different status as “reaction” to what the attacker is doing. They as it follows do not have the same abilities as the reacting force.

However, they can perform DAS missions, Defend territories from SBR, even possibly interdiction of enemy planes coming over to attack. They can also participate in coastal defense from invasions etc. lastly, we will add CAP as in AA pacific to address naval and sub stall problems in phase 2 and 3.

Defending planes cannot stay in fight when the attacker has decided to end his attack… that moves too much into the responsibilities of the active player. Defense has to be more passive as it is in OOB.

They have to retreat to an adjacent friendly territory or one that is in flight range. (the closest one)

Yes they die.