Larry Harris Semi-Official Tournament Game Patch

@aardvarkpepper @Kakarrot1138

Howdy guys. Doug Thorpe and I won the 2018 tournament 42.2, and I hope to return to Gencon.

I think the overarching theme here is how the game has changed to accommodate timed and remote play. My experience is that many people own and love AxA, but many very rarely play the game, in any format. With the rise of online gaming, there are other ways to play besides in-person–but the game does not have easy-to-reach or a very modern set of victory conditions–the original one was; destroy both axis capitals and that’s retained in the online version so its possible to have a viable game with 1 axis dead and 1 ally dead and play on from there. The tournament rules are just an attempt to make ANY competitive format viable for in-person games, and in the case of LH patch, to balance another game that seems balanced when rarely played, but imbalanced when rigorously played over and over again.

The analogy is between PBM chess and Speed Chess. In the tournament, you need to be able to play a full round, even of G42, in about 1 hour. You also need to arrive and get situated, eat, set up, break down and do other logistical stuff–which for most of our early live games, took about 2-3 hours. When we played Classic in college, we had long sideboards, chatted, took hours to set up, started about 11pm, and got through about 3 turns before we gave up. I think we played a grand total of 4 times in 5 years.

Now that i’ve played 250 live games, I can tell you that 90% of players either dont have the focus or practice to set up and play a live game that aggressively or quickly. Many people would never consider traveling to play the game, and most people lack either the game or interpersonal skills to want to bother. With AxA Online, there are thousands of players who will never own the live game, much less play it live.

This creates different play styles, the online versions encourage a slow, meticulous build up and plod across the board, shuffling loads across the atlantic for turn after turn, building slowly and crushing germany (usually) over many turns. That is nothing like live tournament play, where as you guys mention, the goal is to grab the VCs at a moment where the enemy can’t reply (Allies go last), or the money at the last minute. Even combat and buys take second rank to those considerations–in G42 it doesnt even matter what you buy with the USA on the last turn in most games because you can’t reach any battles before time runs out.

While I do understand Kakarrot’s point that the game would be ruined if you couldnt play meticulously and ploddingly it over 20-40 turns (which would be days of live play), the game is actually much MORE fun live–because you have some sense of when it will end and what you need to accompish, and mistakes and missteps are magnified by fatigue and slopping. Every move and battle is for keeps, and esp. with the economic victory of G42, on the wire the entire time.

FYI, there is no preset bid for any version at the tournament besides Classic.

So, I’m one of the rare players who has played in all the formats, all the versions and is also on FB, this board. I’m also friends with most of the people internationally who do set up live tournaments. And I’ll tell you–while they are still based on the same core mechanics and rules, they are different beasts. I find it far more fun to play live, and the reality is that because that’s so impractical in terms of space, player skill, time, dedication, etc. people enjoy a remote, untimed game as well. But those games are also radically different; In live play, you cannot just slowly build up and win a long game–there will not be one. In tripple AAA, some players have ABSURD moscow stacks running up towards 100+ units, easy.

The truth is, esp in G40 and before the 42.2 patch, the games were so imbalanced that its pretty easy for the Axis to just rush the objectives, pin you, and finish the game in a few hours. So, that used to help (lol), as I’ve said before–the game is often decided at the team selection phase (because if you get paired with a noob, your job is to gracefully lose and play quickly). In live games, some resolution has to be reached (like fall of moscow, or capitulation), and so those are the milestones for play. I should also mention that when youre playing 40 people, the skill level is going to be lower and more varied than when you are bringing in 40000 people online, and I’ve met online players who are WAY better than me, who have never even seen the game set up.

All the best, Jon

@aardvarkpepper

Well on that account, you’re wrong–there are very clear answers to your questions, and they are boring ones.

The setup is LH 3.0. The 42.2 projected bid used to be 24+ (add BB to SZ 37 battle, without a KJF blowout, the allies will lose every time)

Bidding is an auction for sides. You can’t save cash, you can only buy units, you can only place units where like units already exist. Besides that, you can place as many pieces wherever you want them. In G42, the projected bid is 7+ allies, in AA50 its 5+ either side, in 42.3 its 6+ allies, usually. With any bid at all, 42.3 is pretty close to being balanced…and…

Pretty close to being boring, also…

The opener for Russia is totally formulaic, the same one I use in 42 Online. Attack with everything. If you can hold Ukraine first round and its safe (you should strafe out and save as many tanks as possible) you land the planes there and turtle up. If Germany gets Ukraine in the first 4 turns, you’re gonna lose. A KGF is difficult/impossible in the tournament game because the allies don’t have time to develop that shuck. You KJF by destroying his SZ 37 (The Black Queen’s Gambit) then you fork Kwangtung/Philippines and you wipe his fleet off the board. If Japan bought correctly, he could probably hold off the penultimate battle and block those objectives until time runs out–since Germany has Karelia, they win if they hold those VC at time end.

And that’s the problem with all the versions (and with many wargames), is you figure out what works, you ignore other avenues of play, and you essentially try to do the same thing over and over again by optimizing it (the Critical Path). Everything else is a distraction. One of my buddies in Online 42 can fork both Moscow and Bombay on turn 3, almost every game–and take either one of those on Axis4…it just takes very formulaic, direct play and no screwing around. The Allies are still at a disadvantage in the 42.3 game and AxA Online because the Allies have to play very cagily to avoid losing Bombay quickly, Moscow eventually…you only have 1 mobility stack to defend/attack all the main conflict zones and eventually, the Axis can force you to choose to lose one or the other. If the Axis fail to do this within the first 6-8 turns, a skillful allied player can beat them over a very very long, plodding, boring Axis-turtle favored game that is only mildly fun because the transport UI and manipulation is so awful. Also I lose as the allies all the time by not “seeing” or counting units move’s correctly, something that I’d virtually never do in the live game.

@Kakarrot1138 @aardvarkpepper

I enjoy the game, and also enjoy the community and talking about the game. I’d surmise that the question about “Is AxA shallow/deep” comes up because if there were only 1 version and 1 format, the game would be really boring–but since there are many versions and many formats, even after 25 years, its not.

You mention that there should be a KGF and a KJF and perhaps another more balanced way of winning in each version–that’s a good concept, but especially if you look at the evolution of G40 from alpha, to alpha+3, one thing emerges. If you’ve tried to create your own setup (same maps, same units, same teams, just a completely different starting setup), you’ll quickly find that a goldilocks balance of great choices at the open that then lead into a series of cascading, fun sub-outcomes is EXTREMELY difficult to attain in an abstract wargame (that doesnt have squares or hexes). I’ve tried it a bunch of different ways, and the amount of tinkering and playtesting needed to create a great starting setup, or at least a really good, balanced one is immense. Many of the 1st Edition (and reprint) AxA games have confusingly worded rules, printing errors, or glaring balance problems (or all 3). And this for one of the most ## printed wargames in history.

So, its very hard to create that initial game state that is 1) opfor (the teams are completely different unlike chess) 2) historical 3) fun and 4) balanced. Once that state is created, its very difficult to alter it without causing a cascade of other changes to the game that flow from it, and remain balanced, and historical. That’s what leads to the critical pathing issue–Germany and Japan have tons of planes to make them flexible and to make different strategies viable–but its not very historical, not very balanced–AND, a really good player can ignore all the minor things those planes and ships could do and use them all to “lightsaber” through the opponent’s capital.

One thing that really stands out (esp. in G40) is about 60-70% of the battles and board don’t really matter…certain critical actions and zones do. So whether you take a $1 territory or kill 1 infantry without loss, those things are all just part of gameplay. Really good players don’t leave victory up to luck, and they are willing to sacrifice a bunch of small, irrelevant things like $1 territories, useless units, or NOs in order to zap your capital. And since they can lose every plane and still take the capital with 1 ground unit left, that means the attacker (axis) often has a clearer, easier and non-odds driven way to accomplish that.

@Kakarrot1138

I don’t see the KJF in the current G40, G42 or 42.3’s. I’ve had lots of discussions (including entire plans laid out in the threads eg Setting Sun KJF) about how to execute a clampdown on Japan, but Moscow dies early, and first.

As to your other point, the VC aren’t logical. A newb player can build units on their Axis capitals the whole game, they are impossible to take in anything but the longest and most drawn-out games. They could then insist that they are winning because the other player doesn’t have the patience to fight the game to the end, and that the Allied player has to capitulate or actually accomplish his goal. In 42Online, thats usually a ragequit, or a “siege” where they refuse to give up and force you into greater and greater risks to pin them or stalemate the game–whoever is the more patient wins. That’s not fun either.

Its somewhat worse in G40/42–The Axis can win on either board. In a longer multisession game of G40, Japan can alternate threatening Cairo, Sydney and Hawaii, threatening to pin the Allies on one board by giving up the win on the other. The allies are forced to inefficiently rush/turtle these nodes to prevent the Axis from selecting the weakest one that you fail to cover, and going for that one to clench the game. YG has a points system to address this, economic victory at time is another approach.

I don’t know if the game was really meant to be played to those conclusions. 90% of the games I play in arent, they’re decided by concession. And like I said, the 42Online long game isn’t particularly rich and deep as Hearts of Iron, Conflict of Heroes, Company of Heroes, (or Global War, Twilight Imperium etc., though those dont seem to even be intended for practical play) or any of those modern computer or other wargames. It feels like an Avalon Hill era game in that way–its easier to exploit the rules, balance and other player than it is to make a truly insightful and flexible all-game strategy.

@aardvarkpepper @Kakarrot1138

If Germany is able to consistently defeat/retake Ukraine, and Russia has lost its tanks (or ANY fighters) then Russia is slowly weakened by having to counterattack and the Allies lose. Japan can back up a German take, and though its not the fastest way to pressure India, they can also clip away all the $ from Russia–Russia doesnt have the mobility pieces or $ to keep retaking the $2+ territories in 42.2. There are ways to delay this outcome (fighters with UK, the bid, retreat your Russian tanks).

the open is to send everything to attack Ukraine that can come (4/1/3/2?) and then everything else that can come goes to W Russia (9/1/1? i forget) If he gives up the bomber, or you’ll get killed on the counterattack, you should retreat (esp. from Ukraine).

In addition; You bid a sub for the Black Queen battle, otherwise the odds are no good. In one of our tourney games, the bid and original sub survived because of wonky enemy shooting (remember in that battle the fighters can’t hit subs and so need to roll separately) and those 2 subs went on to get 3 further sub-shots+free hits (when in 95% of the games, there are no subs at all down there).

@Kakarrot1138 Yes to your detail, you laid out the battles correctly and you can play for just the VC win. It just takes a lot of patience to overwhelm the germans, and one screw up–he can blow you up wherever you’re weakest. I enjoyed Online for a while, then got frustrated and turned it off. It’s good that new people and old are having fun playing after so many years, and I look forward to live play resuming in earnest.

Air is really good for Russia in each version because they have so many must-win battles (where a failure to block that territory can leave your capital/stack open to attack). If you’re reduced to just infantry and arty, you have to send overmany to ensure a take and this depletes you even more rapidly.

@aardvarkpepper @Kakarrot1138

Another thing that this thread was originally about (U0) was shaking up the game so that some of the silly things that “must” happen don’t. In 42.2-3, picking off the US destroyer is too powerful and leaving the US without a starting fleet isn’t historical. Attacking the UK fleet and demolishing it is too easy even with the added DD and subtracted sub…it would be better if something else had to give. Killing the USA at PH is too easy (though the best japan strat usually ignores that to take India faster). Those are all reasons why this U0 discussion started–which I’m not a huge fan of but you could just have a simpler solution like no attacks on the USA turn 1…

@Kakarrot1138 I’ve come to like that move better than inf and arty. In all versions. But, in all versions–even when Germany is unfocused…Russia is too weak and cant counterattack.

The bid as-played only falls into the critical path dilemma more, by letting the player decide what influences the path the most. That is what these 42.3 threads were originally about, eg U0. Direct further setup tweaks would be better–a great version of 42.4 may be in here somehow (hopefully one that lets the germans keep the bomber, makes Russia survivable, and doesn’t steal away the US fleet so easily). One example is the direct hack – add a Russian Strat Bomber to help a weaker player, any version. Works.

Easily said, not easily done.

If we build it, they will come.