Global War 1940 2nd ed.

Ya. I think if I did a change for now or a bit later I would just keep stuff the same but have the lowered values for planes and add to setup.
With US and Japan getting 1 more Carrier each.

If both figs hot air craft first then I don’t see a need for a DF with figs. Just give Tac and Bomb a One round DF roll before the combat round starts.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

If both figs hot air craft first then I don’t see a need for a DF with figs. Just give Tac and Bomb a One round DF roll before the combat round starts.

I never thought about this special mechanic that way.
You are right, giving a 1 time AA roll for TcB and Bomber in addition to the regular combat.
The only exception is about not giving a preemptive strike on enemy’s aircraft with that roll, meaning that you don’t remove immediately casualties from this roll.

From a designer POV, it is harder, but possible, to formulate into a special stage within regular combat.

Another way to handle this, is giving a specific coloured D12 dice for AA of StB and TcB would solve the issue allowing to roll both dice at same time but treating the AA coloured accordingly.

In fact, I usually roll first step of combat all Fighters either offense and defense, in that regard I can add TcB and StBombers AA roll during the first combat round, then allowing TcB and StB to roll again for their specific “pick target” or “carpet bombing” dice.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Ya. I think if I did a change for now or a bit later I would just keep stuff the same but have the lowered values for planes and add to setup.
With US and Japan getting 1 more Carrier each.

From my playtests, it becomes an evidence that all Powers were drastically loosing OFF/DEF Punch and were affected during at least first and second turn of play. Of course, if your setup is already customized (mine was based on AA50 or 1942.2 OOB) you will judge from playtest if not adding units still provide an interesting balanced gameflow.

I would at least play test after the 2 games coming up in June. Always open to changes for the better. I mentioned this to another group member and are all for lowering the values for fig and Tac , dive planes. Just have to figure out what planes can hit what planes and if I don’t need the DF round for figs and naval fig planes And tacs dive and bombers get a DF roll.
I do have all A and D planes can retreat after 1 round of combat but that is with a DF round first and planes getting shot at for 1 round from cruisers before they can retreat.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

I would at least play test after the 2 games coming up in June. Always open to changes for the better. I mentioned this to another group member and are all for lowering the values for fig and Tac , dive planes. Just have to figure out what planes can hit what planes and if I don’t need the DF round for figs and naval fig planes And tacs dive and bombers get a DF roll.
I do have all A and D planes can retreat after 1 round of combat but that is with a DF round first and planes getting shot at for 1 round from cruisers before they can retreat.

The principle behind lower cost and values I suggested, is to keep the same abilities for each aircraft but make the combat value so a hit imply also the special capacity.
The idea is there is no separate “7” to “5” is only a hit, “4” to “1” is a hit and allows pick target.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

I have Cruiser A4 D4 C10 M3 at a plane or ship each round of combat.

Toying about the two coloured D12, and if all Fighters are hitting directly aircraft.
A way to boost Cruiser in that case, can be to add another dice to treat as a regular hit in combat.

For instance, Cruiser A8 (0.96) D8 (0.96) C10 M3, 1@4 at a plane AND 1@4 each round of combat.

Compared to Destroyer A3 (1.00) D3 (1.00) C6 M2.
You get a similar combat value for cost.

While Battleship A9 (1.26) D9 (1.26) C15 with 2 hits (1.26)

Seems a correct increase in strength.

Yes if I have this right. For every round of combat for a cruiser your saying is
D12. A8 D8 any roll of 4 or less can put hit towards a plane. ?

But I only raised the cruiser cost to 10 instead of 9 with my new cruiser values so how does
Cruiser C9 A7 D7 roll 3 or less hit goes towards a plane for every round of combat

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Yes if I have this right. For every round of combat for a cruiser your saying is
D12. A8 D8 any roll of 4 or less can put hit towards a plane. ?

Not exactly.
I imply that every “4” or less means a hit for a Cruiser.
Then, gives to A/D Cruiser a green “D12” die and a blue sky “D12” die.
Now you can totally play according to your thematic that Cruiser were good at AA but not only against aircraft. Cruiser still have a few big turrets.
For instance, assumed blue die is for aircraft and the green die for any unit.
Each time a Cruiser is rolling, you roll the 2 dice.
Let’s suppose 4 cases:
A) blue and green rolled both “5” or up. No casualty.
B) blue is “4” or less, green is “5” or up. Owner’s have to choose an aircraft.
C) blue is “5” or up, green is “4” or less. Owner’s choose anyone unit as casualty.
D) blue is “4” or less, green is “4” or less. Meaning two hits.
Owner’s have to choose an aircraft AND choose another unit as casualty.

You can even apply a similar feature of 2 D12 dice for Battleship.
Assuming BB are A9 D9 C15 2hits, just split: @4 vs aircraft, then @5 for any unit.

And because Cruiser are cheaper than Battleship, you get a better AA capacity for your bucks with Cruiser: 6 Cruiser giving 6AA@4 (10 IPCs) vs 4 Battleship giving 4AA@4 (15 IPCs), same way than Shore bombardment are better with Cruiser.

@baron-Münchhausen said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Yes if I have this right. For every round of combat for a cruiser your saying is
D12. A8 D8 any roll of 4 or less can put hit towards a plane. ?

Not exactly.
I imply that every “4” or less means a hit for a Cruiser.
Then, gives to A/D Cruiser a green “D12” die and a blue sky “D12” die.
Now you can totally play according to your thematic that Cruiser were good at AA but not only against aircraft. Cruiser still have a few big turrets.
For instance, assumed blue die is for aircraft and the green die for any unit.
Each time a Cruiser is rolling, you roll the 2 dice.
Let’s suppose 4 cases:
A) blue and green rolled both “5” or up. No casualty.
B) blue is “4” or less, green is “5” or up. Owner’s have to choose an aircraft.
C) blue is “5” or up, green is “4” or less. Owner’s choose anyone unit as casualty.
D) blue is “4” or less, green is “4” or less. Meaning two hits.
Owner’s have to choose an aircraft AND choose another unit as casualty.

You can even apply a similar feature of 2 D12 dice for Battleship.
Assuming BB are A9 D9 C15 2hits, just split: @4 vs aircraft, then @5 for any unit.

Ok I see what your saying now. But I don’t agree totally on a Battleship getting close to the same for hitting a plane. BB didnt shot down that many planes and besides there 's not that many in game. Maybe go with @3 plane and @6 ship.
I like this.
Cruiser C9 A@3 Blue die plane hit A@4 red die Ship hit.
BB C15 A@3 Blue die plane hit A@6 red die ship hit.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

@baron-Münchhausen said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Yes if I have this right. For every round of combat for a cruiser your saying is
D12. A8 D8 any roll of 4 or less can put hit towards a plane. ?

Not exactly.
I imply that every “4” or less means a hit for a Cruiser.
Then, gives to A/D Cruiser a green “D12” die and a blue sky “D12” die.
Now you can totally play according to your thematic that Cruiser were good at AA but not only against aircraft. Cruiser still have a few big turrets.
For instance, assumed blue die is for aircraft and the green die for any unit.
Each time a Cruiser is rolling, you roll the 2 dice.
Let’s suppose 4 cases:
A) blue and green rolled both “5” or up. No casualty.
B) blue is “4” or less, green is “5” or up. Owner’s have to choose an aircraft.
C) blue is “5” or up, green is “4” or less. Owner’s choose anyone unit as casualty.
D) blue is “4” or less, green is “4” or less. Meaning two hits.
Owner’s have to choose an aircraft AND choose another unit as casualty.

You can even apply a similar feature of 2 D12 dice for Battleship.
Assuming BB are A9 D9 C15 2hits, just split: @4 vs aircraft, then @5 for any unit.

Ok I see what your saying now. But I don’t agree totally on a Battleship getting close to the same for hitting a plane. BB didnt shot down that many planes and besides there 's not that many in game. Maybe go with @3 plane and @6 ship.
I like this.
Cruiser C9 A@3 Blue die plane hit A@4 red die Ship hit.
BB C15 A@3 Blue die plane hit A@6 red die ship hit.

I might add:
You can even apply a similar feature of 2 D12 dice for Battleship.
Assuming BB are A9 D9 C15 2hits, just split: @4 vs aircraft, then @5 for any unit.

And because Cruiser are cheaper than Battleship, you get a better AA capacity for your bucks with Cruiser: 6 Cruiser giving 6AA@4 (10 IPCs) vs 4 Battleship giving 4AA@4 (15 IPCs), same way than Shore bombardment are better with Cruiser.

I suggested you keep the 10 IPCs because it provides a wider range of cost and 10 is easy to calculate. And all 10 IPCs aircraft may be lower in the cost structure, in that case.

The other die is not directly at ship. It is opened up to the owner, as a regular combat roll.
It is to open up the possibility of using cheaper aircraft for casualties. So, in that case, the owner may decide between cheaper unit, such as DD, Subs and aircraft…

Once this said, It seems interesting that the main number for hitting aircraft during all combat rounds is “4” for Fighters (at least on defense), Cruiser and Battleship. Less things to remember…

But you may prefer that number be “3”, making defending Fg special with “4”.

Ok I Just may try this in games coming up with out changing the plane values yet.

Cruiser C10 A@4 plane blue die A@4 for any unit defenders choice
BB C15 A@4 plane blue die A@5 for any unit defenders choice
All figs, Tacs and Dive bombers C10

I’ll run this by the guys see what they think.

Baron

You got any stats on how many planes were shot down by Battleships ?
Anybody ?
CWO ?

I know Cruisers shot down 5000 planes.
I’m still thinking of going this way
CR C10 @4 blue die plane @3 red die any ship
BB C15 @3 blue die plane @6 red die any ship
All planes C10.
That’s it. This will include one round of DF.
My concern is CR and a BB can get 4 hits in 1 round. I know the % are lowered but concern is if a battle gets diced for one side that will just kill ships and planes to fast.

@SS-GEN
I know that many BB turrets were converted for anti-aircraft purpose.
All Powers understood after 1941 how aircraft were an important factor to consider in naval combat.

Whether you choose between @4 or @3 is more a designer decision.
As long as you keep the same coloured D12 to treat as AA, you will be testing a new mechanics.

It will be a judgement call based on ease of playtest application or the contrary.

Giving 2 different dice colour, does confuse or add details without confusion?

@baron-Münchhausen

Yes we will test it. I made the final decision.
Why not. Both Ships were doing simultaneous A and D so 2 dice make sense.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

@baron-Münchhausen

Yes we will test it. I made the final decision.
Why not. Both Ships were doing simultaneous A and D so 2 dice make sense.

So let me know how the playtest go.
No need to change too much at a time
This double dice capacity boost Cruiser and BB but they don’t get the versatility of aircraft.
And historically these units were good against air and sea. So assuming numbers are quite balanced, the main question is about this double dice procedure. Is it playable or confusing? Is it slowing the pace or keeping the game flow?

IMO, this has precedence over other historical accuracy matter.

Looking at this some more the Cruiser will be a pretty strong ship due to being able to take 2 hits on a plane and a ship. Its like a 2 hit ship for damage now. The BB can get 4 hits before its sunk. Did you consider those numbers ?
Is there a way to config in the extra hits before ships are sunk.
CR C10 A4 .48 pl A3 .36 ship = .84 but have to consider it can hit 2 pieces. 1.68 ?
BB C15 A4 .56 pl A5 .70 ship = 1.26 1 Dam A3 .42 pl A4 .56 ship = .98 2 hits 2.24 ?
My BB goes to A6D6 when damaged.
But also the BB can hit 4 pieces before its sunk. These 2 ships will be way to strong on first round of combat maybe and at least in my game you can retreat your planes after 1 round of combat if there’s a lot of plane kills. Would not be uncommon to lose 4 planes after 1 round of combat. 2 in a DF and 2 in naval battle if there’s 1 BB and CR. I guess will have to see. I will have to do some Naval test battles.
How these look if we figure out a new numbers table for 2 AD dice ships ?
CR A3 pl A3 ship
BB A4 pl A4 ship Damaged A3 pl A3 ship

Maybe with the CR A4 A4 BB A4 A5 may not work with plane C10 ?
I can see planes Costing 8 or 9. At least Naval Figs and Dive Bombers.

Still will try it games. Just got to come up with a value that we are all OK with for starters.

Guys are concerned about over kill to.

@SS-GEN

This is an added level of complexity and probably not worth it, but instead of all plane hits resulting in a kill, I mean planes that get hit, maybe one or some could just neutralize. Doesn’t kill the plane but the plane can’t take place in the combat.

Just a thought : )