US Building an industrial complex on Norway

Playing a little devil’s advocate here and my be off my rocker. Is it more beneficial to let the Soviets take Norway so they gain 6 IPCs from it (3 for Norway, 3 for NO of taking German owned territory)? You can add another 5IPCs (2 for Finland, 3 for NO of taking Pro-Axis territory) for the Soviets when they take Finland.

If you can take out the Noreigen/Finnish troops and the door is open ti the Siviets, take it.  I don’t think that this is crazy.  If the German player is taking their time and not threatening Leningrad, it makes sence to me.  If nothing else, you have redirected German troops to ga back and take all of that back in order to get their IPC’s back.  There are alot of avenues into Europe for the allies.

@taamvan:

This Norway move takes way too long to execute and doesn’t do much to cripple Germany.   Under the best conditions, its US 4 at Gibraltar and US 5 at SZ112 to Norway, which is often a very dangerous place for you to put your fleet as the Allies.   You could potentially be crossing to SZ 119, but that costs you a SeaBase and you are still only gaining the SZ 125 position.

The sad fact is that by the time you take this 8IPCs away from Germany, he has already got 60-70 income.   You don’t really diminish his forces this way, as in most games the pieces that Germany had in Scandinavia have joined on the attack with Russia.    Ideally, it is Russia that takes Finland and Norway rather than the Western Allies since that gives them a NO of +3, but of course that would require diverting critical troops.

It does potentially create a backdoor to revive Russia, but a relief fleet can reach Novogrod as well, which is a much more strategic position to be in with both your fleet and your land.

It is not really any more appealing for the Western Allies to attack the Atlantic Wall or the Mediterranean either, so attacking Norway may be a “best of worst” option since it is much harder for Germany to defend and could potentially diminish their income at a time when they need to build in many directions.   But because they will be right at the door to Moscow at this point, you may not have your UK support fighters to count on, and in any event, it doesn’t seem like the Allies are capable of taking a well defended Norway AND attacking some other useful objective at the same time.

If that were the case (that you could take Norway with a small, sacrificial fleet and not be subject to any german counteroffensives) then do it.   But it won’t usually play out like that and in order to safely build the MiC there you will have to bring all the US and probably all the UK pieces up there to do it.

Some good points in here.  I like to take Norway with the US (or UK early on if possible) but I do agree that if Russia can get in there it’s more worthwhile.

More games I play the more I like the neutral crush for the Allies.  Hell, with a heavy enough EUS buy in round 1 the US can be in Spain as early as US2.

Having the US or UK get to SZ 127 sounds awesome, but the problem is that from SZ 91 you’re hitting Norway from SZ 112, which is an exceptionally bad place for the allies to be (no air base) and its also 3 spaces to SZ 127 with no port to use.  That means that US 6 is too early, and that US 7 would be your first chance.

I may be wrong, but you also really can’t effectively use the transports the way you describe.  If the transports have to move (rather than sit in SZ 110 and just bridge), it takes ridiculous logistics and time to move any troops.  UK goes before the US, meaning that if the transports are empty, the UK can load (then move on US turn) then unload and attack on the subsequent turn but you cant repeat this maneuver, its one shot (because the transports are no longer next to the UK on the UK’s turn) and America cant use them while you are.

Worse, only the UK would be amphibing, and during the offense, the US units would sit idle.  If Germany has a single fighter, it can scramble out over your invasion fleet (without an airbase) and none of the US warships can do anything about it.  (Could be wrong here, but I think that’s what the FAQ says)  With only UK fighters to help, range becomes an issue.

Showing up behind German flanks with a huge big stack of US units sound awesome, but it takes patience (US does nothing to stop the Axis for 7 turns) and I’m not that certain that you can stymy Germany with a single wave before it takes Moscow or everything around it.

@Nippon-koku:

More games I play the more I like the neutral crush for the Allies.  Hell, with a heavy enough EUS buy in round 1 the US can be in Spain as early as US2.

I must not think outside the box enough. US can attack neutrals when not at war with the Axis and before they are brought in during round 4?

in any event, in various games, my opponent has attacked turkey and sweden as well and they fall easily.  There are not that many pro Axis neutrals to be gained (sweden, spain, portugal, saudi etc) after a few have been knocked out.  You have to watch out for this stuff. ;)

@simon33:

@wilk7011:

@Nippon-koku:

More games I play the more I like the neutral crush for the Allies.  Hell, with a heavy enough EUS buy in round 1 the US can be in Spain as early as US2.

I must not think outside the box enough. US can attack neutrals when not at war with the Axis and before they are brought in during round 4?

No. Must be referring to a J 1 Dow.

Correct.  I should’ve clarified; since JDOW1 is very popular the US may have the chance to get over there as early as US2

@Nippon-koku:

Correct.  I should’ve clarified; since JDOW1 is very popular the US may have the chance to get over there as early as US2

Not to change/hurt this topic but I do not have the experience many of you do so I don’t understand this strategy. Why is JDOW in round 1 popular?

@wilk7011:

@Nippon-koku:

Correct.�  I should’ve clarified; since JDOW1 is very popular the US may have the chance to get over there as early as US2

Not to change/hurt this topic but I do not have the experience many of you do so I don’t understand this strategy. Why is JDOW in round 1 popular?

Plenty of people will chime in on this, but the general idea is that a JDOW1 is the most powerful Japan move, as you can wipe out some extra Allied units that normally get away, specifically the India BB, the sub and DD off the Philippines, plus reduce India’s income immediately.

I personally don’t like it.  I’ve played it myself (following the guide written by Cow) without much success, and I’ve played against it with ample success.

@wilk7011:

@Nippon-koku:

Correct.�  I should’ve clarified; since JDOW1 is very popular the US may have the chance to get over there as early as US2

Not to change/hurt this topic but I do not have the experience many of you do so I don’t understand this strategy. Why is JDOW in round 1 popular?

One reason seems to be that if you don’t get the USA player involved in the game early enough, he gets bored and leaves. Others find the few units that you get to kill that might otherwise escape to be enough value to offset the negatives about an early DOW giving Allies their war bonuses immediately.

I’m a fan of J2DOW myself, it’s much less risky overall.

I disagree, J1 attack is awesome if you also hit the US Hawaiian fleet along w/Phil Isle and fleet (can be done w/min loss to Japan and virtually no counter attack by the USA). The US loses 2 subs, 2 dd, a cruiser, tpt and the Phil ftr. This sets the US way back on the Pac side, and as much as they would like to go Europe the first couple buys, they can’t!!!

The UK Pac loses the BB and won’t ever get is NO because you took Kwangtung J1. On J2 you take Malaya so the Anz loses its NO, and if Anz transports over to take Dutch NG you sink it, and prob take it back at some point so they don’t get that NO either.  An IC on FIC (taken J1) will help to topple India and/or China. J2 you start taking the money islands ……and get the DEI NO on J3 using transports you bought J1. Depending on Japans positioning the US could be hard pressed to move its remaining fleet to Hawaii (which can be under threat of invasion) because you sank all their support ships. Without US support for a couple turns the other Pac allies pretty much just back off, play defense and try to salvage what they can as Japan continues to grow into the orange Godzilla.

It does release the US on the Euro side, but they don’t have much over there to start (would take a couple turns to be relevant). They really can’t move the San Fran fleet through the canal because Japan will take Hawaii easily, and the US is kinda forced to spend on the Pac side to try to stabilize it (or split income which is never a good thing for the allies). This gives the Germans some breathing room in the early going and they can focus on Russia prob w/G2 Barbarossa (bmr buys for Germany also helps keep the Western allies off their back for a while).

@WILD:

I disagree, J1 attack is awesome if you also hit the US Hawaiian fleet along w/Phil Isle and fleet (can be done w/min loss to Japan and virtually no counter attack by the USA). The US loses 2 subs, 2 dd, a cruiser, tpt and the Phil ftr. This sets the US way back on the Pac side, and as much as they would like to go Europe the first couple buys, they can’t!!!

The UK Pac loses the BB and won’t ever get is NO because you took Kwangtung J1. On J2 you take Malaya so the Anz loses its NO, and if Anz transports over to take Dutch NG you sink it, and prob take it back at some point so they don’t get that NO either.  An IC on FIC (taken J1) will help to topple India and/or China. J2 you start taking the money islands ……and get the DEI NO on J3 using transports you bought J1. Depending on Japans positioning the US could be hard pressed to move its remaining fleet to Hawaii (which can be under threat of invasion) because you sank all their support ships. Without US support for a couple turns the other Pac allies pretty much just back off, play defense and try to salvage what they can as Japan continues to grow into the orange Godzilla.

It does release the US on the Euro side, but they don’t have much over there to start (would take a couple turns to be relevant). They really can’t move the San Fran fleet through the canal because Japan will take Hawaii easily, and the US is kinda forced to spend on the Pac side to try to stabilize it (or split income which is never a good thing for the allies). This gives the Germans some breathing room in the early going and they can focus on Russia prob w/G2 Barbarossa (bmr buys for Germany also helps keep the Western allies off their back for a while).

China give you much trouble with this?

it’s a recipe for letting the allies stack and hold Yunnan all game and turning China into a monster

Comes at the cost of losing the land route into Burma and letting China build artillery all game and giving China extra IPC to work with every turn. In contrast, a J2 opening can prevent that from happening.

@SubmersedElk:

it’s a recipe for letting the allies stack and hold Yunnan all game and turning China into a monster

Comes at the cost of losing the land route into Burma and letting China build artillery all game and giving China extra IPC to work with every turn. In contrast, a J2 opening can prevent that from happening.

You have to make a choice to threaten Hawaii/Anz, or to crush Asia. At the end of J2 I like to have my options open with fleet and transport(s) at Caroline’s, Phil, and Malaya (having taken Malaya J2 with transports used to take Phil J1). All three can hit Queensland, but taking Sidney is a tough nut to crack (kinda like a sea lion fake, makes them buy inf and play defense). You can threaten sz26 or an invasion of Hawaii if you overload Caroline’s, but that leaves less for Asia. Building an IC J2 on FIC (maybe also on Kwangtung) helps with that though.

You will trade Yunnan a couple times like in any game (unless the Chinese roll their little lime green A$$e$ off), but the IC(s) you built J2 will start to supply more ground troops for Asia. The Chinese can’t go into FIC, and the UK doesn’t want troops on the coast (to easy for Japan to ampib). Plus you have the 3 transports you built J1 that can come down loaded and troops can stage at Kwangsi J2. You want to use them to take the money isles J3, but some could be left there to push China. If the UK goes balls to the wall and stacks Yunnan you can hit it with a handful of troops and your over inflated air force (should be able to get at least 15 planes maybe more into that battle), if that happens India is a cake walk because the UK won’t have many troops left to defend.

Does DOW on J1 or J2 effect neutrality between the Soviets and other Axis powers? If Soviets still have to remain neutral until RD4 do you wait to attack Russia with Germany?

@wilk7011:

Does DOW on J1 or J2 effect neutrality between the Soviets and other Axis powers? If Soviets still have to remain neutral until RD4 do you wait to attack Russia with Germany?

It does not, but IMO it’s crazy to wait until G4 to attack, it lets the allies build up too much. Allies will typically have 50+ production advantage well through midgame even if they’re not played well. Why give them more time to leverage it? The only reason to wait is to maneuver forces for a more effective attack, and it doesn’t take more than 2 rounds to do any maneuvers you can possibly think of. If Germany doesn’t attack by G3, you have a very timid Axis player who will probably lose.

Russia has 37 income before Germany attacks, and defensive builds are more efficient than offensive builds. Axis need to be pushing over 50 income worth of units at Russia per turn or its conquest chances diminish, and that’s not even taking UK fighter support into account.

@wilk7011:

Does DOW on J1 or J2 effect neutrality between the Soviets and other Axis powers? If Soviets still have to remain neutral until RD4 do you wait to attack Russia with Germany?

No it doesn’t.  Still, Germany should probably declare by G3 and on G2 in some circumstances.

If you’re skeptical about J1/J2, i would recommend trying the standalone Pacific game a few times, trying each of J1/J2/J3.  The advantages of an early declaration and early expansion for Japan are pretty apparent in that scenario.

Imho J1 and J2 are also superior to J3 in Global (with 2nd edition rules), but in some exceptional circumstances (Sea Lion with a shot at success) J3 is warranted.

I’m personally a fan of J1 and have plenty of success with it, but my version does NOT include a J1 attack on Pearl Harbor.  Instead, at the end of J1, Japan should have 3 fleet groups (one by Japan, another by Borneo, another by Phi) that are poised to seize money islands and other critical targets such as Malaya on J2.