Axis "J2/I2" Strategy

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but unless Japan has attacked UK and therefore DoW the USA, American units cannot end their turn in SZ 54.  I like your idea to send the UKBB that way instead of just having it die with the rest of the UK fleet defending SZ 39, but in any event, if J1 DoW, then the American units are likely dead, and if not, they cant end their turns next to ANZAC or UK territory.  Right?    My only point is that getting to move everything and all nations to SZ54, intact and at war, would be rare.

Another question;

UK can declare war on Japan at any time,
but, the ‘tripwire’ of DoW on UK/ANZAC bringing USA into the war if attacked unprovoked is lost
UK would get its bonus (since it would be intact and whole in every event that it could declare before Japan does)
but the downside is that USA would not be at war with anyone, and not get its bonuses, until USA4.

(The old disadvantage is that USA’s +20 bonus for the commencement of war would also be lost, but that is a 1940 Pacific rule only)

It would appear that this is an bad strategic move, since if UK DoW UK1, Japan could take most or all of UK territory without having to worry about any American attacks or about any substantial American bonuses early on coming into play in the Pacific.

@taamvan:

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but unless Japan has attacked UK and therefore DoW the USA, American units cannot end their turn in SZ 54.  I like your idea to send the UKBB that way instead of just having it die with the rest of the UK fleet defending SZ 39, but in any event, if J1 DoW, then the American units are likely dead, and if not, they cant end their turns next to ANZAC or UK territory.   Right?

US can’t end next to Japanese territories when not at war. Next to ANZAC, UK Pac, Dutch, French, Russian is OK. Planes (EDIT: and ground units) can’t land on these countries’ territories however, because the US is not allied with them yet.

@ColonelCarter:

Planes can’t land on these countries’ territories however, because the US is not allied with them yet.

Good point. So the Philippines fighter can only stay in place or go to Guam unless the US carrier moves into range.

Thinking some more about counters to this strategy, could a multi national naval stand off Java work? Sorry, not sure I understand the meaning of the icons in the graphic. But you can have:
UK BB
UK Cruiser
UK DD
ANZAC DD
US DD
US Sub

Probably not enough against a couple of carriers supported by land based planes and some ships. Is that what is present?

There is also the option of landing on Java and reinforcing with ANZAC troops and planes. 4 inf and 2 fighters aided by a DD off the coast to prevent a bombardment would at least require two transports to do a landing.

Just throwing ideas into the air. Please don’t jump on me.

US can’t end next to Japanese territories when not at war. Next to ANZAC, UK Pac, Dutch, French, Russian is OK. Planes can’t land on these countries’ territories however, because the US is not allied with them yet.

Thank you guys

@SubmersedElk:

@simon33:

Thinking some more about counters to this strategy, could a multi national naval stand off Java work? Sorry, not sure I understand the meaning of the icons in the graphic. But you can have:
UK BB
UK Cruiser
UK DD
ANZAC DD
US DD
US Sub

Probably not enough against a couple of carriers supported by land based planes and some ships. Is that what is present?

There is also the option of landing on Java and reinforcing with ANZAC troops and planes. 4 inf and 2 fighters aided by a DD off the coast to prevent a bombardment would at least require two transports to do a landing.

Just throwing ideas into the air. Please don’t jump on me.

From the J2 position Japan has 14 air and 9 ships that can hit the Java SZ, and there are 6 fully loadable transports that could drop onto the island, so Japan could quite easily kill both the fleet and the garrison in the same move. It would essentially be walking right into the teeth of the IJN. The distraction value would not likely be enough to offset the loss of almost all potentially effective Allied forces in the area.

This scenario reminds me somewhat of the Battle of the Java Sea where, when it all was over, a Japanese rear admiral commented to his defeated opponent: “You fought bravely, but not very skilfully”.

@Herr:

@SubmersedElk:

@simon33:

Thinking some more about counters to this strategy, could a multi national naval stand off Java work?

From the J2 position Japan has 14 air and 9 ships that can hit the Java SZ, and there are 6 fully loadable transports that could drop onto the island, so Japan could quite easily kill both the fleet and the garrison in the same move. It would essentially be walking right into the teeth of the IJN. The distraction value would not likely be enough to offset the loss of almost all potentially effective Allied forces in the area.

This scenario reminds me somewhat of the Battle of the Java Sea where, when it all was over, a Japanese rear admiral commented to his defeated opponent: “You fought bravely, but not very skilfully”.

Many games ago, I tried a similar move–combining the UK/Anzac fleets off Celebes while seizing islands–and got totally obliterated during a J2 attack.

Ok, so that leaves strengthening Queensland as the standard move.

I guess the UK Cruiser and Destroyer off India  can sail around to the south of Java so long as they stay out of range of the IJN.

I imagine that if the Japanese on J2 take Hawaii then the standard move US2 is to take it back, but that still leaves a pretty significant UK and ANZAC fleet to mess with the IJN or is it not enough to take out its smaller forces such as off Java and still survive?

Oh, actually your US player didn’t do this. What is around Hawaii US2? I’d have thought 2DD 2Sub Cruiser AC and Battleship plus buys plus air could take down anything Japan could muster there. Never having played against this move, perhaps I’m wrong.

Sounds like a mistake to me to go full Atlantic against this play. Hawaii needs to be threatened. I surmise that you have sent two full ac, bb, some destroyers and subs there. A force which could not stand up to a decent counter or am I getting it wrong?

Ok, put it into the calculator. If:

• no hits are taken by the Japanese fleet in any attacks
• all the ships which can reach Caroline Islands go there J1
• no assistance in J2 from new units or units starting in SZ19 or SZ20.
• US Hawaii and Philippines fleets move to Western US or Queensland respectively
• no IJN blockers (not much point if they’re only blocking the US DD and Sub from Philippines anyway)
• US Carrier moves to the square adjacent to Hawaii (SZ12) allowing two more land based fighters to enter the combat
• All US ships in the Pac join in
• US loses Hawaii on J2 after evacuating its ships, troops and planes

The odds equalise roughly if the US buys 3 subs in the Western US. Of course, they can only buy 3 units there if not at war US1. But throw in another Strategic Bomber at the Defender drops to 25%. Buy 3 Strat Bombers and only 2 subs and the defender drops to 8%. Of course, that does mean you can’t buy a destroyer for the atlantic on turn one.

Let’s say that maybe they feel like making a stand at Hawaii on the land battle:
They can fly in 2ftr + 1 tac + 1 stratB, in addition to the 2ftr already there. Let’s assume they play it safe and leave the stratB at home. The Hawaiian defenders survive this 88.9%, even without reinforcements from the mainland or with the reinforcements but sending on the Hawaiian troops to Qld - SZ54.

I’m going to take some convincing this strategy of yours is impregnable.

Oh, I think I see the problem with that as a strategy. Even with the scramble, SZ54 off Qld is not really defensible.
1 UK BB
2 US DD
1 US Sub
1 US Cruiser
1 ANZAC DD
1 ANZAC Cruiser
3 ANZAC Ftr

Cannot defend against 3 loaded carriers, BB, Cruiser, 3 DD and a Sub. It’s less than 3%.

But you can still hold Hawaii and sink ships trying to surround it on US2.

I wonder if you should stack SZ56 off WA? You’re out of reach of IJN on J3 and only the Hawaiian forces can’t reach it.

@teslas:

@aequitas:

What are you going to about russia invades Finnland instead of retreating to moscow with the whole stack?

You have 7 scandinavian infantry as Germany. Let the Russians take Finland for one round, then hit them with those 7 dudes + 2 more whatevers from a transport and your air. Some people even take their Danes up early as well, meaning 11 land units for a Finland counter. The Russians can’t do anything about that unless they want to leave Moscow as a super easy treat for Germany. Russians in Scandinavia on a straight push like this are a blessing, not a threat. It would take a heavily coordinated effort between Russia on one side and UK/US on the other to make it matter, and at that point the situation is too complex to discuss much in the scope of this post’s original intent.

You also have 11 inf as USSR and 1 art which can move into Karelia R1. If the Germans don’t bring across reinforcements on round one you can take down the force with some air. The real problem is that it leaves a sizeable portion of your inf out of position. I think the time I took down Norway I might have brought in a tank to help or maybe used a transport. Might be better to just nibble at Finland. That way the force can’t threaten Leningrad as much.

@SubmersedElk:

Allies could potentially stack Java SZ after J1 with 1 BB, 2 cruisers, 3 DD, 1 sub and can put 4 inf 5 ftr 1tac on Java proper.

As Japan I could theoretically respond to that by sending in 2BB 2 cruisers 1 sub 3AC 2bmb 2ftr 2tac, allowing a landing on Java with 6 inf 5 art 1 arm 2 ftr 2 tac. Running the numbers that’s about a 95 IPC swing, and of course the Allies would have zero warships, zero transports and zero airforce afterward. US could ship in what’s in Hawaii and a bmb for a counter but it would be facing 5-7 capital ships and a half-dozen air 1-2 DDs defending, so that would be another big win for Japan if it were tried.

Japan’s force does not need to be that large. Japan could choose to ignore the US units in a naval attack by not declaring war on the US. Japan can kill the US units during the next round because those US units cannot escape.  The US units would watch the battle, then watch the amphibious assault. They could stick around for futile combat on US-next, or can run on US-next, and then be just as dead on Japan-next.

@SubmersedElk:

Alternatively, Japan could be prevented from taking Java for one round by picketing 5 different sea zones using 3 DD 2 cruisers. In the J2 scenario an ANZAC DD build or the French DD could prevent amphibious bombardment the next round, and those fighters if stationed in Java could counterstrike one or two of the picket killers, and that’s about as difficult as they could make it. With no air threat left except perhaps the US bomber, Japanese transports wouldn’t need warship cover for most of their movements for a few rounds.

This is true, as long as you use only ANZAC and UK destroyers and cruisers for the purpose. Oops, not quite enough of those…

@SubmersedElk:

I don’t like how those numbers add up for Allies, they’re better off consolidating a fleet off Queensland that could do some real damage to the IJN defensively and would have some protection from airbase fighters stationed there as well as backup 1 turn away in Hawaii moved there from western US SZ. If you sacrifice all that material then Japan is not under naval pressure at all for quite some time.

Again, Japan can ignore the US ships in the sea zone off Queensland. Of course, there the US ships could potentially escape unless Japan actually takes Queensland with an amphibious assault after decimating the fleet. If that’s the plan, wait for the US to declare war on you on its turn and then kill the piddly US fleet that cannot escape. Why fight the combined navy of three powers when you can take 1/3 of it out of play simply by not declaring war?

Marsh

@simon33:

I’m going to take some convincing this strategy of yours is impregnable.

There are no impregnable strategies.

Marsh

@ColonelCarter:

Surprisingly, 8 inf 1 art in Paris only forces 3 planes into the attack to get 100% in LL–though you have a good chance to lose a plane and not all your tanks will survive. But it only pulls 1 plane from navy attacks if you want to get risky there.

Losing all but one tank and several planes pretty much loses the game for Germany.  As someone pointed out, France has a viable counterattack and most German forces died in the battle.

Russia should be safe FOREVER under that scenario.

Marsh