If Japan does a great J1 DOW on W.Allies, ie:loses just 1-2 inf… ,
how should US respond? It’s first 2-3 rounds of buy?
And UK India? Should it keep its FTRS or send them to the Med?
Thinking some more about counters to this strategy, could a multi national naval stand off Java work? Sorry, not sure I understand the meaning of the icons in the graphic. But you can have:
UK BB
UK Cruiser
UK DD
ANZAC DD
US DD
US SubProbably not enough against a couple of carriers supported by land based planes and some ships. Is that what is present?
There is also the option of landing on Java and reinforcing with ANZAC troops and planes. 4 inf and 2 fighters aided by a DD off the coast to prevent a bombardment would at least require two transports to do a landing.
Just throwing ideas into the air. Please don’t jump on me.
From the J2 position Japan has 14 air and 9 ships that can hit the Java SZ, and there are 6 fully loadable transports that could drop onto the island, so Japan could quite easily kill both the fleet and the garrison in the same move. It would essentially be walking right into the teeth of the IJN. The distraction value would not likely be enough to offset the loss of almost all potentially effective Allied forces in the area.
US can’t end next to Japanese territories when not at war. Next to ANZAC, UK Pac, Dutch, French, Russian is OK. Planes can’t land on these countries’ territories however, because the US is not allied with them yet.
Thank you guys
Thinking some more about counters to this strategy, could a multi national naval stand off Java work? Sorry, not sure I understand the meaning of the icons in the graphic. But you can have:
UK BB
UK Cruiser
UK DD
ANZAC DD
US DD
US SubProbably not enough against a couple of carriers supported by land based planes and some ships. Is that what is present?
There is also the option of landing on Java and reinforcing with ANZAC troops and planes. 4 inf and 2 fighters aided by a DD off the coast to prevent a bombardment would at least require two transports to do a landing.
Just throwing ideas into the air. Please don’t jump on me.
From the J2 position Japan has 14 air and 9 ships that can hit the Java SZ, and there are 6 fully loadable transports that could drop onto the island, so Japan could quite easily kill both the fleet and the garrison in the same move. It would essentially be walking right into the teeth of the IJN. The distraction value would not likely be enough to offset the loss of almost all potentially effective Allied forces in the area.
This scenario reminds me somewhat of the Battle of the Java Sea where, when it all was over, a Japanese rear admiral commented to his defeated opponent: “You fought bravely, but not very skilfully”.
@Herr:
Thinking some more about counters to this strategy, could a multi national naval stand off Java work?
From the J2 position Japan has 14 air and 9 ships that can hit the Java SZ, and there are 6 fully loadable transports that could drop onto the island, so Japan could quite easily kill both the fleet and the garrison in the same move. It would essentially be walking right into the teeth of the IJN. The distraction value would not likely be enough to offset the loss of almost all potentially effective Allied forces in the area.
This scenario reminds me somewhat of the Battle of the Java Sea where, when it all was over, a Japanese rear admiral commented to his defeated opponent: “You fought bravely, but not very skilfully”.
Many games ago, I tried a similar move–combining the UK/Anzac fleets off Celebes while seizing islands–and got totally obliterated during a J2 attack.
Allies could potentially stack Java SZ after J1 with 1 BB, 2 cruisers, 3 DD, 1 sub and can put 4 inf 5 ftr 1tac on Java proper.
As Japan I could theoretically respond to that by sending in 2BB 2 cruisers 1 sub 3AC 2bmb 2ftr 2tac, allowing a landing on Java with 6 inf 5 art 1 arm 2 ftr 2 tac. Running the numbers that’s about a 95 IPC swing, and of course the Allies would have zero warships, zero transports and zero airforce afterward. US could ship in what’s in Hawaii and a bmb for a counter but it would be facing 5-7 capital ships and a half-dozen air 1-2 DDs defending, so that would be another big win for Japan if it were tried.
Alternatively, Japan could be prevented from taking Java for one round by picketing 5 different sea zones using 3 DD 2 cruisers. In the J2 scenario an ANZAC DD build or the French DD could prevent amphibious bombardment the next round, and those fighters if stationed in Java could counterstrike one or two of the picket killers, and that’s about as difficult as they could make it. With no air threat left except perhaps the US bomber, Japanese transports wouldn’t need warship cover for most of their movements for a few rounds.
I don’t like how those numbers add up for Allies, they’re better off consolidating a fleet off Queensland that could do some real damage to the IJN defensively and would have some protection from airbase fighters stationed there as well as backup 1 turn away in Hawaii moved there from western US SZ. If you sacrifice all that material then Japan is not under naval pressure at all for quite some time.
Ok, so that leaves strengthening Queensland as the standard move.
I guess the UK Cruiser and Destroyer off India can sail around to the south of Java so long as they stay out of range of the IJN.
I imagine that if the Japanese on J2 take Hawaii then the standard move US2 is to take it back, but that still leaves a pretty significant UK and ANZAC fleet to mess with the IJN or is it not enough to take out its smaller forces such as off Java and still survive?
Oh, actually your US player didn’t do this. What is around Hawaii US2? I’d have thought 2DD 2Sub Cruiser AC and Battleship plus buys plus air could take down anything Japan could muster there. Never having played against this move, perhaps I’m wrong.
In this case, the US player moved into the Atlantic on US1. If he moves the western fleet to Hawaii, a DD blocker plus a carrier and a few airplanes are sufficient to deter a quick attack on SZ6 or Japan proper. With half the initial fleet at the Philippines at the end of J2, Japan is in a position to defend SZ6 if the US goes full Pac, or can use that fleet offensively if the US doesn’t muster a Pac naval threat.
If the US spends several early turns building in the Pacific, Japan can use the half-fleet plus carrier builds, DD blockers, and air sent home from the mainland to defend SZ6 for as long as it needs to. In that case, Japan can’t be as aggressive, but Axis makes up for it by having better opportunities on the European side of the map.
Sounds like a mistake to me to go full Atlantic against this play. Hawaii needs to be threatened. I surmise that you have sent two full ac, bb, some destroyers and subs there. A force which could not stand up to a decent counter or am I getting it wrong?
Ok, put it into the calculator. If:
The odds equalise roughly if the US buys 3 subs in the Western US. Of course, they can only buy 3 units there if not at war US1. But throw in another Strategic Bomber at the Defender drops to 25%. Buy 3 Strat Bombers and only 2 subs and the defender drops to 8%. Of course, that does mean you can’t buy a destroyer for the atlantic on turn one.
Let’s say that maybe they feel like making a stand at Hawaii on the land battle:
They can fly in 2ftr + 1 tac + 1 stratB, in addition to the 2ftr already there. Let’s assume they play it safe and leave the stratB at home. The Hawaiian defenders survive this 88.9%, even without reinforcements from the mainland or with the reinforcements but sending on the Hawaiian troops to Qld - SZ54.
I’m going to take some convincing this strategy of yours is impregnable.
Oh, I think I see the problem with that as a strategy. Even with the scramble, SZ54 off Qld is not really defensible.
1 UK BB
2 US DD
1 US Sub
1 US Cruiser
1 ANZAC DD
1 ANZAC Cruiser
3 ANZAC Ftr
Cannot defend against 3 loaded carriers, BB, Cruiser, 3 DD and a Sub. It’s less than 3%.
But you can still hold Hawaii and sink ships trying to surround it on US2.
I wonder if you should stack SZ56 off WA? You’re out of reach of IJN on J3 and only the Hawaiian forces can’t reach it.
@aequitas:
What are you going to about russia invades Finnland instead of retreating to moscow with the whole stack?
You have 7 scandinavian infantry as Germany. Let the Russians take Finland for one round, then hit them with those 7 dudes + 2 more whatevers from a transport and your air. Some people even take their Danes up early as well, meaning 11 land units for a Finland counter. The Russians can’t do anything about that unless they want to leave Moscow as a super easy treat for Germany. Russians in Scandinavia on a straight push like this are a blessing, not a threat. It would take a heavily coordinated effort between Russia on one side and UK/US on the other to make it matter, and at that point the situation is too complex to discuss much in the scope of this post’s original intent.
You also have 11 inf as USSR and 1 art which can move into Karelia R1. If the Germans don’t bring across reinforcements on round one you can take down the force with some air. The real problem is that it leaves a sizeable portion of your inf out of position. I think the time I took down Norway I might have brought in a tank to help or maybe used a transport. Might be better to just nibble at Finland. That way the force can’t threaten Leningrad as much.
Sounds like a mistake to me to go full Atlantic against this play. Hawaii needs to be threatened. I surmise that you have sent two full ac, bb, some destroyers and subs there. A force which could not stand up to a decent counter or am I getting it wrong?
I ignore Hawaii until endgame (and often even then in preference for Sydney as the last VC). It’s just way too easy for the US to defend and the US has the IPC to do it. Better gains for the effort can be had in Asia.
One thing about this play is that the J1 moves are quite modest so it gives the US the signal it’s free to go Atlantic. But it’s quite solid even if the US goes west instead.
Allies could potentially stack Java SZ after J1 with 1 BB, 2 cruisers, 3 DD, 1 sub and can put 4 inf 5 ftr 1tac on Java proper.
As Japan I could theoretically respond to that by sending in 2BB 2 cruisers 1 sub 3AC 2bmb 2ftr 2tac, allowing a landing on Java with 6 inf 5 art 1 arm 2 ftr 2 tac. Running the numbers that’s about a 95 IPC swing, and of course the Allies would have zero warships, zero transports and zero airforce afterward. US could ship in what’s in Hawaii and a bmb for a counter but it would be facing 5-7 capital ships and a half-dozen air 1-2 DDs defending, so that would be another big win for Japan if it were tried.
Japan’s force does not need to be that large. Japan could choose to ignore the US units in a naval attack by not declaring war on the US. Japan can kill the US units during the next round because those US units cannot escape. The US units would watch the battle, then watch the amphibious assault. They could stick around for futile combat on US-next, or can run on US-next, and then be just as dead on Japan-next.
Alternatively, Japan could be prevented from taking Java for one round by picketing 5 different sea zones using 3 DD 2 cruisers. In the J2 scenario an ANZAC DD build or the French DD could prevent amphibious bombardment the next round, and those fighters if stationed in Java could counterstrike one or two of the picket killers, and that’s about as difficult as they could make it. With no air threat left except perhaps the US bomber, Japanese transports wouldn’t need warship cover for most of their movements for a few rounds.
This is true, as long as you use only ANZAC and UK destroyers and cruisers for the purpose. Oops, not quite enough of those…
I don’t like how those numbers add up for Allies, they’re better off consolidating a fleet off Queensland that could do some real damage to the IJN defensively and would have some protection from airbase fighters stationed there as well as backup 1 turn away in Hawaii moved there from western US SZ. If you sacrifice all that material then Japan is not under naval pressure at all for quite some time.
Again, Japan can ignore the US ships in the sea zone off Queensland. Of course, there the US ships could potentially escape unless Japan actually takes Queensland with an amphibious assault after decimating the fleet. If that’s the plan, wait for the US to declare war on you on its turn and then kill the piddly US fleet that cannot escape. Why fight the combined navy of three powers when you can take 1/3 of it out of play simply by not declaring war?
Marsh
I’m going to take some convincing this strategy of yours is impregnable.
There are no impregnable strategies.
Marsh
You’d have to weight the cost/benefit between that and forgoing the use of the immensely-powerful harbor in the Philippines. The reach of naval units from there is incredible, it’s a major force multiplier and threat projection platform.
Surprisingly, 8 inf 1 art in Paris only forces 3 planes into the attack to get 100% in LL–though you have a good chance to lose a plane and not all your tanks will survive. But it only pulls 1 plane from navy attacks if you want to get risky there.
Losing all but one tank and several planes pretty much loses the game for Germany. As someone pointed out, France has a viable counterattack and most German forces died in the battle.
Russia should be safe FOREVER under that scenario.
Marsh
@Marshmallow:
I’m going to take some convincing this strategy of yours is impregnable.
There are no impregnable strategies.
Marsh
If the game were balanced that would be true. I’m not convinced it is. I’ve yet to see an example of a game where Axis played well and still lost.
You’d have to weight the cost/benefit between that and forgoing the use of the immensely-powerful harbor in the Philippines. The reach of naval units from there is incredible, it’s a major force multiplier and threat projection platform.
Yes, the Philippines is an amazing location for the Japanese fleet.
Marsh
One thing about this play is that the J1 moves are quite modest so it gives the US the signal it’s free to go Atlantic. But it’s quite solid even if the US goes west instead.
So the general idea is to lure the US into ignoring Japan? Hmm, can’t knock it because it seems to have worked in the example game you show. What if the US bulks up Hawaii on land and positions their fleet for a counter strike as I’m suggesting? Your transports are out of position for a landing on Australia. You can probably only land on one of the money islands because a counter attack is more or less assured. Can’t reach India on J2. I’m guessing you just stick to the script in that scenario around DEI. What does the Caroline force do? I’m guessing stay put and wait for the transports to come from SZ6.
It does not mather if you can or cannot defend against it. It mathers that japan has to commit a lot to kill it and might be in a position where the US can finish off a large part of its fleet.
It is only 10 VS 12 dice and only 11 vs 12 hitpoints you cannot count the carriers unless you really want to throw away that fleet against a US counter. And you dont have a naval base so your ships will still be damaged the next round :)
I’d wondered about that but the damaged fleet can limp back towards Philippines and be out of reach of the US fleet.
I guess one option is to strengthen both Queensland and Hawaii. Neither could stand against the full weight of the maximum Caroline force, but the survivors of the battle would need to fight off the other force. Let’s look at that:
Hawaii (SZ26): 2DD, AC, 2 Cruiser, BB, Sub, 3Ftr Scramble, 2Ftr on AC. Attacking this force, Japan needs to sacrifice at least two hits to its carriers which will leave the US with two units on average. (I don’t play low luck.) If IJN sacrifices three hits on its carriers it has an average of 1-2 units left. Sacrificing more can’t be simulated in the calculator.
If two more inf and a tac bomber are landed on Hawaii, the Japanese can take this down 64% of the time with 3 inf and 3 art. You might land the strat bomber on Johnson Island or the Line Islands to help clean up the left overs which would allow it to threaten SZ54 as well. Oh actually it can do so from Western USA.
But suffice to say, this appears to be a pretty strong option and forces a retreat from the Carolines or requires its reinforcement from a sensible Japanese player.