G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions)

@Baron:

Interesting reply Hoffman.
Just a small correction, TcB on Carrier is like having a 5 move from land.
It reaches 6 Move only from AB. And OOB StB damage is D6+2, not D6.
So new TcB is 1move less from AB, 2 damage points less on bases.

I don’t think it would be relevant to cut in half bombing damage.
The scale of 240% more effective with 8 move range to use StBs 5 IPCs than TcBs 12 IPCs for bombing seems talking by itself.

But your point about fuzzing 2 units seems valid and need to be considered.

I will read a few times your post.
Streamlining things is always appealing but it can be going to far.
Thanks.

No prob, Baron. It was a lot to say all at once.

Was the Strat Bomber 1D6 +2 added in G40.2? I must have missed that entirely. Been a good while since I have played G40 and have only played 2nd Ed a handful of times.

Quick reply regarding the movement… what I meant by SF Rule Tacs having essentially 7 moves would be in the case that they take off from an Air Base but land on a carrier. This would be an equivalent range to OOB Strat Bomber in that, the Strat B would make the seventh move to get back to land, while the Tac B would not have to make that seventh move if landing on a carrier - thus giving the two units effectively the same range.

My point was just that the dynamic aspect of the carrier combined with a semi-standard move of 6 could allow for an even further extended air bomber (@4) umbrella using Tacs… beyond what Dark Skies could achieve with just Strat Bombers.

Granted, you would need to have enough carriers and enough in position to make that extended range a true threat, but nevertheless. That is not so much a comment on the revised role of the Tac, but more on making Air Bases +2 instead of +1.

Don’t get me wrong, its not that I don’t like the idea. I am just trying to poke any holes in it now so we can deal with them before it gets to a gameplay stage, if at all possible.

My two cents.

@LHoffman:

@Baron:

Interesting reply Hoffman.
Just a small correction, TcB on Carrier is like having a 5 move from land.
It reaches 6 Move only from AB. And OOB StB damage is D6+2, not D6.
So new TcB is 1move less from AB, 2 damage points less on bases.

I don’t think it would be relevant to cut in half bombing damage.
The scale of 240% more effective with 8 move range to use StBs 5 IPCs than TcBs 12 IPCs for bombing seems talking by itself.

But your point about fuzzing 2 units seems valid and need to be considered.

I will read a few times your post.
Streamlining things is always appealing but it can be going to far.
Thanks.

No prob, Baron. It was a lot to say all at once.

Was the Strat Bomber 1D6 +2 added in G40.2? I must have missed that entirely. Been a good while since I have played G40 and have only played 2nd Ed a handful of times.
**Quick reply regarding the movement… what I meant by SF Rule Tacs having essentially 7 moves would be in the case that they take off from an Air Base but land on a carrier. This would be an equivalent range to OOB Strat Bomber in that, the Strat B would make the seventh move to get back to land, while the Tac B would not have to make that seventh move if landing on a carrier - thus giving the two units effectively the same range.

My point was just that the dynamic aspect of the carrier combined with a semi-standard move of 6 could allow for an even further extended air bomber (@4) umbrella using Tacs… beyond what Dark Skies could achieve with just Strat Bombers.**

Granted, you would need to have enough carriers and enough in position to make that extended range a true threat, but nevertheless. That is not so much a comment on the revised role of the Tac, but more on making Air Bases +2 instead of +1.

Don’t get me wrong, its not that I don’t like the idea. I am just trying to poke any holes in it now so we can deal with them before it gets to a gameplay stage, if at all possible.

My two cents.

Makes sense too.
The +2Move from AB twist aircrafts thing a bit.
Moving from AB to AB, TcB is like an OOB StB with more defense and less damage (even some HR, like YG, reduce to D6 anyway if not starting from AB).

Also, both Fg and TcB can follow each other when starting from same AB.
Even TcB A3-4 D3 M4-6 C11, +1A with Fg or Tank is acting like an OOB StB with no AB.

Considering AB bonus, which also increase Fg attractiveness, long range naval combat might not make 11 IPCs TcBs such an interesting buy. And  keeping combined arms is an incentive for Fgs dominance.

TcB A4 D3 C12, D6 damage solve the attractiveness issue vs Fg.
But not the mobility issue of Fg.
But not the increase impact on Dark Sky with Fgs Strategy, with 6 moves.
Fg A3 D4 M4-6 is just 1 attack point less but 3 defense point more compared to OOB StBomber.

This fact puzzled me. Does Fg needs to increase cost to 12? 10 is a well rounded number, but…

This point bother me.

@Black_Elk:

Lhoffman, how do you feel about just leaving the Tactical Bomber OOB?

If we did that, then there is no question about the HR reducing the dark skies appeal, even with the AB +2, because you would need the fighter+tacB combined arms for the TacB to hit 4.

I think it might be simpler for now, not biting off more than we can chew. Puts the emphasis on simply getting a proper implementation for Strategic Bombers and SBR escort/intercept in this game.

We can return to ideas like M3 ships or TacB targeting later, without wedding those at the hip to our proposed Strategic Bomber/AB adjustments.

I mean, that makes sense to me. Again, I am not opposed to a Tac being standard A4, as long as it works.

In the interim, I don’t think you will lose anything by keeping Tacs OOB, probably in both Attack and Cost. It should make the process a bit more scientific in that we are not manipulating more than a couple variables at one time.

@Baron:

Makes sense too.
The +2Move from AB twist aircrafts thing a bit.
Moving from AB to AB, TcB is like an OOB StB with more defense and less damage (even some HR, like YG, reduce to D6 anyway if not starting from AB.

Also, both Fg and TcB can follow each other when starting from same AB.
Even TcB A3-4 D3 M4-6 C11, +1A with Fg or Tank is acting like an OOB StB with no AB.

Considering AB bonus, which also increase Fg attractiveness, long range naval combat might not make 11 TcBs such an interesting buy. And  keeping combined arms is an incentive for Fgs dominance.

A4 D3 C12 solve the attractiveness issue vs Fg.
But not the mobility issue of Fg.
But not the increase impact on Dark Sky with Fgs Strategy, with 6 moves.
Fg A3 D4 M4-6 is just 1 attack point less but 3 defense point more compared to OOB StBomber.

This fact puzzled me. Does Fg needs to increase cost to 12? 10 is a well rounded number, but…

This point bother me.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Same man! I can sense the frustration. Adjusting these rules is a fine art and science. That’s what makes it hard. If it was just strategy or just mathematics it might be easier, but we have to deal with both.

All I meant is that the issue you got with 12 IPCs TcBs mobility is more problematic with 10 IPCs Fg.
Even 7 moves apply to Fg landing on aircraft.

@Baron:

All I meant is that the issue you got with 12 IPCs TcBs mobility is more problematic with 10 IPCs Fg.
Even 7 moves apply to Fg landing on aircraft.

As in you think the fighter is worth more now that it has M6 (kinda M7)? It’s price should better match the Tac?

I have been so accustomed to Fighters being 10 IPCs across all revisions of A&A that bumping its cost seems taboo to me. Even 11 IPCs for a fighter would be really annoying. 12 just feels like it would be a waste to buy one. I don’t know… maybe it is just a psychological problem, but it is one that I think a lot of people would have.

I agree with LHoffman as well. Tacs shouldn’t be allowed to sbr and remain oob otherwise. The fact that you can’t wack fleets and bomb Russia into the ground with the same unit, should be enough to slow down Dark Skies strategies, even with the range boost I would think. As Elk mentioned you don’t want to totally eliminate them.

I’m gonna be gone for a while. Be next week sometime before I can do anything. If someone else feels like doing it:

Under unitAttachments bomber add option name= isInfrastructure (look at the factory one for exact wording) and change attack and defense to 0. Air attack to 0 too. BuyBombers change to 5, (it’s somewhere near the beginning of the xml).

Under airfield in unitAttachments you’ll see where to boost movement to 2. Harbours for naval move change.

Actually just copy the current bomber, airfield and harbour if you want naval M3, to a non modded xml, from unitAttachments and you’ll just need to change the price for the bomber then.

One more thing under unitAttachments tactical_bomber delete or change to false isStrategicBomber. There’s also targets harbour airfield you can get rid of if it messes with ya. I don’t think it will.

Fine.
TcB A4 D3 M4-6 C12, TcB A1, 1D6 vs AB or NB will provide something similar to OOB StBs without the bombing IC capacity, and is simpler of use without combined arms.

TcB A3-4 D3 M4-6 C11, +1A paired 1:1 with Fg or Tank,
keeps almost everything as OOB. And makes for a much weaker Dark Sky strat, than above.
Simpler for a play-test and to be implemented by casual player.

Both can be tested. I’m cool with it.

Fg A3 D4 M4-6 C10, SBR A1 D1 will be part of more Naval Defense Strategies considering its increase of power projection.

@Baron
Tacs can bomb ICs right now in the mod. Think I’ll just leave it active and people can player enforce for testing. Might be able to get something out tonight

Which do you prefer ? No sbr for tac or can hit factories ? Or : ) ?

@barney:

@Baron
Tacs can bomb ICs right now in the mod. Think I’ll just leave it active and people can player enforce for testing. Might be able to get something out tonight

Which do you prefer ? No sbr for tac or can hit factories ? Or : ) ?

Tacs can bomb ICs right now in the mod.
What I understand is that your XML files provide this possibility.
I don’t think it is necessary to make another game file.
Player can easily choose and agree on which one they want.
If they allows TcB to bomb or not IC. Once a TcB is part of the assault, it is easy to divert it on AB or NB only.

For play testing, I believe your versions are OK.
But I’m not the chief architect of it, here. Rather Black Elk may have another opinion. It is up to him.
No need to create a restricted one in that alpha testing stage.

@Black_Elk:

Personally I don’t have the same issue with a fighter based air umbrella strategy vs fleets under AB+2, that I do with an OOB Strategic Bomber proper “dark skies” strategy.

The strategic situation with fighters and AB+2 is sufficiently different from the OOB dark skies with OOB Bombers, that I don’t think you could really call it the same thing.

Fighters by themselves only offer an attack 3 on the water.

Fighters without an AB+2, don’t have anywhere near the same mobility over multiple turns, when compared against the OOB stratB. For example, fighters parked in W. Germany cannot reach Moscow in one move for an attack (even with the AB+2). They are 1 move shy of a landing spot. Even if they were close enough to fly across the continent to attack Moscow and land in an adjacent space, they won’t be able to immediatrly return to W. Germany the following round (because without the AB they only have 4 movement.)

Fighters can’t bomb factories.

Agreed on all counts. I think that with a base Attack of 4 for a Tac, the comparison would be much closer, but given the conclusion we have come to, I am comfortable with it personally.

@Black_Elk:

Whether the OOB tacB is an attractive purchase vs the OOB fighter (either under normal or the new AB+2 conditions) is a somewhat separate issue.

After we have a solid footing for SBR and escort, we can move to more nuanced problems… Such as the general unattractiveness of TacBs as a purchase option. We face a similar issue with cruisers, battleships, and aaaguns. But again, I think it might better to pace ourselves here.

Agreed here also. There is just so much to get into that it can be hard to do only a couple at a time.

Right on Guys ! Baby steps as they say :)
M6 min for all air is powerful. No AB and your’e at a M4 though…and yea. : )

Think it represents the difference between land based and naval air as well.

Heh Heh is right : )

Those German and JPN bombers, especially German, are missed. Idk about long term impact, but hey, why not find out ? :)

@Black_Elk:

Right on. I think I’d prefer an OOB tacB for general testing. If only because it’s easier to float on the boards, like “grab this and go.” With less chance that players get confused or distracted by the tactical bomber. I’m kind of curious if the Strategic Bomber and Airbase changes alone might produce a game which is balanced by sides? Because that would be a major windfall and a great selling point for the HR. Get the Allies away from these 30+ bids that are needed OOB to realistically win against Axis experts, who know how to employ the OOB strat bomber to full effect.

No rush though. As of now it’s basically just like 5 of us in here, so it’s not as if we need to strike while the iron is still hot or anything. Hehe
:-D

Probably never balance it for everyone but … I’m seeing possibilities :)
It’s a good thing. Gonna try it soon.

@Black_Elk:

Right on. I think I’d prefer an OOB tacB for general testing. If only because it’s easier to float on the boards, like “grab this and go.” With less chance that players get confused or distracted by the tactical bomber. I’m kind of curious if the Strategic Bomber and Airbase changes alone might produce a game which is balanced by sides? Because that would be a major windfall and a great selling point for the HR. Get the Allies away from these 30+ bids that are needed OOB to realistically win against Axis experts, who know how to employ the OOB strat bomber to full effect.

No rush though. As of now it’s basically just like 5 of us in here, so it’s not as if we need to strike while the iron is still hot or anything. Hehe
:-D

There is many good things with bombers and Fgs which make SBR not as destructive as OOB but noone will be scared of a flight of bombers. Intercept going to be normal thing to do.
Player will not be too desperate to loose 5 IPC unit. And may even add some Fg in hope of destroying an interceptor. @1 per Fg is not so high.
It is clearly better incentive than Balanced Mode SBR, not adressing any critic on other things which seems pretty good.
Maybe some will want more Fg A1 vs D2 to better depict the homeland advantage for interceptors.
But StB A0 vs Fg D1 is already a massive incentive and clearly depict how Fg can slaughter bombers.

Also, from attacker POV, bringing Fgs for a single combat round instead of ground support @3 for many rounds is not such a good investment: not knowing if defender will commit Fgs for defense. So A1 vs D1 remains a balanced choice, in that case.

TcB and Fg gains much air cover with +2 bonus and also be part of long range SBRs.
This provides also a better historical depiction about StBs vs Fgs escorts range.
Now Fgs can escort bomber from Iwo Jima. Or starting from Midway, can be escorted by Fgs at Iwo.
ABs in PTO now allow Fgs to bring ground support in adjacent island invasion.
Giving 8 move to armless StBs for regular combat have no impact.
That’s the beauty of this 0 hit bomber.

If eventually someone is longing for some attack factor for Bombers in SBR.
It will be easy to provide some idea coming from TP thread to add a weak attack, like:
Young Grasshopper 1A@1 for whole bombers group.
Or any and only shot down StB by Fg get a one shot last defense roll @1.

I’m very confident of this whole change.
And if A4 is missing to many, then you have TcB A4 D3 M4-6 C12 in back pocket.
It will not be exactly as StBs for sure. And in regular combat, it may shines with less projection of power and mobility.

If you’re going to take the combat ability away from Str then perhaps consider allowing them to transport infantry too instead of just Strategic bombing missions. If you don’t want to add paratroopers then use as a transport only on non combat movement and make them land before infantry unloads at the end of Str movement.

Just a thought.

Yes with lower cost of Bomber and your lower cost of a fig will be buying more figs.

IN game now what do we do with the Heavy Bomber Values ? D12

HV Bomber A0 D0 C10 M7 1D6 +2  Can transport 2 inf only in NCM ? @2 dogfight ?