Sub vs planes w/w out DD: HR to limit subs-fodder and to keep equity

@SS:

ASP= Air Search Patrol or Anti-Sub Patrol :-D

Use both in games  ASP= Air Search Patrol = Sea planes can make a air search patrol to find enemy fleet � but it never attacks.
Starting on turn 4 you can use fighter, light bomber and/or sea plane to make a air search patrol  for subs.

ASP= Anti Sub patrol = You can use a destroyer and/or escort to attack and sink a sub. You have to move the destroyer and/or escort in the same zone as the sub. Roll 1 die for each warship. Everytime you get a 2 or less, Destroyer and/or escort found the sub. Once the anti sub search is done, you roll dice again to attack sub or subs. To Destroy a sub you must roll 2 or less. You can’t make anti sub patrol and an air search patrol at the same time. I play same game.

So you play board A&A with CrusaderIV?

Why did you forbid a dual attack (Air Search with planes and Anti-Sub with DDs) against subs in the same SZ?

If you only have 2-3 fighters and 2-3 Destroyers, against 5-6 Subs, it will help that
Air Search attack first,
then Anti-Sub attacks the surviving subs.
No?

Does all the DDs can attack subs or only those which roll a “2” or less?
Does all subs can roll on defense or only 1/attacking DD or the subs don’t defend at all (since they are running silent, running deep)?

Does Cruiser, battleship and carrier can be part of an Anti-Sub with DDs or just DDs?

Thanks for your reply.

I play same game.

So you play board A&A with CrusaderIV?

No I don’t

So, where and how do you play the same game?
I’m puzzled.

Do you play Global only ? or 1942.2? when using these HRs?
Do you have to do a lot of changes to keep the balance?

Does all the DDs can attack subs or only those which roll a “2” or less?

All destroyers roll a die to find subs then they roll another die to attack them.

Sorry, I don’t understand.
What happen if only 1 DD of a group of 3 DDs, for example, find subs during Anti-Sub Patrol?
Does all the 3 DDs can roll an attack on the subs?
Or only 1 DD can hope to destroy 1 sub?

I play same game.

So you play board A&A with CrusaderIV?

No I don’t

Hi SS,
So, how are you sure that you play the same game (with the same house rules) as CrusaderIV since you don’t play with him?
I’m still puzzled.

G1939 is it an official variants? or just an Home one’s?

Another question for both you and CrusaderIV:

What is the subs mechanics on attack of your house rule?

1. Are they attacking with subs only in a separate phase?
     Are they attacking together with other warships?

2. And when only subs group attack a fleet in a SZ with Subs and warships,
     do they attack either subs or warships or subs & warships?
   Thanks for your replies.

@General:

I love house rules they add a little flair to the game. But, I am hesitant to adopt ideas that take the current combat  system in more of a tactical direction. Historically aircraft were the real sub hunters and really increased their success rate with the use of radar. DDs usually are reactive to a subs presense when the sub attacks something. Now the DD is a sub hunter. Per your example 5 SS vs. 1 DD & 5 bombers, those subs out by themselves instead of acting as fodder for my battle fleet are either threatening something or trying to draw your eyes away by sacrificing themselves. The use of needing a DD present might abstractly represent radar tech for those aircraft. Radar + aircraft = Big problems for subs. If I put 5 SS out by themselves within range of aircraft and DDs I hope it is deliberate on my part to draw your priorities for those 5 bmbs away from what I am worried about other than a dumb placement. War is hell. After the first shot is fired most battle plans can be thrown away and then you place your trust in morale, training and initiative.

I agree with you on these two statements:

Historically aircraft were the real sub hunters and really increased their success rate with the use of radar.

DDs usually are reactive to a subs presense when the sub attacks something.

Now the DD is a sub hunter.

Do you see this as a problem?

I’m not sure to understand what you imply about the 1DD+5StB example.

ideas that take the current combat  system in more of a tactical direction.

True that what CrusaderIV and SS are talking about is effectively adding a little tactical element.

My opening post and taking account of the HR of Knp7765 was more intended to fit into the actual strategical level rules.

About the Air Search Patrol
I think it is intended to bring back a more historically accurate anti-sub role for aircrafts.
The new OOB rule for DD+Air is quite weirdo in itself, forbiding planes all alone to attack subs in a SZ is completely inaccurate.
Adding an Air Search Patrol phase before planes all alone can directly hit subs, let the subs little more chance to survive and not just be sitting duck (as it was in classic A&A).

I played once a game with Air Search Communication in which planes have to roll “1” or “2” to detect a subs group.
And it needed only 1 success roll amongst them all to let all planes make a regular attack on subs: Fg A3 and StB A4.
There was also an Anti-Sub Mission made by DD and Destroyer escort, in which each have to roll “1” or “2” to detect a subs group and pin it. But only the successful DD or DE unit in the previous phase can get a chance to destroy a sub at A@2.

So this HR clearly made the difference between looking for subs with planes or with warships (DD/DE).
Planes were much more successful as long as you bring more than just one unit in the ASCom.
It brings a much more historical feel.

But still then, subs have a better chance to survive than when you bring 1-2DD+ a lot of planes in a SZ if you follow OOB rules,
you can clear in a single round all subs with few loss.

@crusaderiv:

But still then, subs have a better chance to survive than when you bring 1-2DD+ a lot of planes in a SZ if you follow OOB rules,

Yes but you cannot make both.
If airplane make air search patrol, Destroyer cannot make a sub patrol mission before or after.
Destroyer or plane not both in the same turn…

This limit is clearly not historically accurate.
I suppose you add it to lower the subs attrition rate because doing both means more casualties for subs.
Did you add it to fix this problem or was this limitation think this way the first time at the creation of this House Rule?

I still hope you will answers some of my previous questions, please.

These ones here:
@Baron:

I play same game.

So you play board A&A with CrusaderIV?

No I don’t

Hi SS,
So, how are you sure that you play the same game (with the same house rules) as CrusaderIV since you don’t play with him?
I’m still puzzled.

G1939 is it an official variants? or just an Home one’s?

Another question for both you and CrusaderIV:

**What is the subs mechanics on attack of your house rule?

1. Are they attacking with subs only in a separate phase?
     Are they attacking together with other warships?**

2) And when only subs group attack a fleet in a SZ with Subs and warships,
  do they attack either subs or warships or subs & warships?
Thanks for your replies.

Some points on sub warfare which are better related in this thread about subs:
@Uncrustable:

So on defense a submarine would not use it’s torpedoes?
Lol “we are under attack, don’t use the torpedoes”

In Atlantic sub warfare, when a single sub was find, it didn’t have a lot of time to launch a torpedo (much less time against a destroyer going toward them) : on surface, they have same speed as merchant’s transport, submerged they were slower. Destroyer were all the way faster. In addition, Sub wasn’t able to dive and launch torpedo at the same time. Torpedoes weren’t that accurate at that time. (More develop at the 9th minute of the last part doc below: Death blow 2/4.)

The only escape was going under the sea, as much deeper as they can and have to wait until the DD abandoned or believe the sub is destroyed.
“Subs were only running silent, running deep.” Nothing else they can do.
There is many rationalization behind Subs defending @1.

Here is a good documentary about all this:
First part describe Subs on attack vs DD defense of convoy:
Convoy: War For The Atlantic: The Hunt 1/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMiXJuJkpTA

This part describe better the Subs on attack but under counter-attack from DD.
Around 2 min 30 s.
Convoy: War For The Atlantic: The Hunt 2/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBW7aEk4VHw

Convoy: War For The Atlantic: Wolfpack Rising 5/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjm-SD3Os80&list=PLE634AAF2A4CAB877

This part describe better the Subs on defense and under attack from aircrafts & escort carrier.
Convoy: War For The Atlantic: The Hunt 5/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfP8o_OPX_Y&list=PLE634AAF2A4CAB877

Around 7 min. 30 s.
Convoy: War For The Atlantic: Death Blow 1/4 and 2/4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNV4IBWMfNA&list=PLE634AAF2A4CAB877

5 first minutes, after it is carrier,  aircrafts and DD on patrol against Subs “on Defense”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D92MTIYBiX4&list=PLE634AAF2A4CAB877

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignRoyalNavy.htm

@Zombie69:

Even though I don’t like house rules in general, I like the OP house rule in conjunction with the HR that allows submerging after one round against DD. The first HR makes subs a little weaker (can’t be used as fodder against planes) while the second makes them stronger (by letting them survive more battles). All in all, I think it balances out. It also has the advantage of being elegant and easy to use.

Glad you see it that way.
A still more simplified HR could be that keeping all OOB DDs rules with Subs and planes, each sides which have Destroyers must say whether or not Subs will be targeted in priority by planes.
If not, then anything but subs must be selected as planes casualties (unless their is nothing else except transports) by the owning player.