Subs-should you be able to pass over them with out consequences

Some optional play for 1914 fans.

Modified rule 12/22/17 to denote that 8 markers are given to each side for play.

1914_German_sub_patrols.jpg

CWO Marc I am not talking the Tech, but rather the availability of Sonar for ASW on ships designed for ASW and not the U boat threat but rather U boats attacking in unison.
Another factor with historically accurate concepts has to be playability without getting overly complicated.

IE German assault guns over tanks was lack of resources….and the availability of chassis from outdated tanks like the PZ ll and PZ 38t to create a need in Self propelled Artillery and Anti-Tank vehicles. I assure you that the Tanks were preferred over assault guns. This concept has morphed in house rules to what these assault guns were actually intended to do. A Panzer Division commander would rather be supplied Panthers over JagdPanthers

@Baron:

I found this interesting questions:
It happens that I forget this situation in this alternate Sub Warfare.
I would try to provide a specific rules when I will find if it falls in the sub alone category (historical POV: subs are not protecting scrambling planes) or the subs+warships (game mechanics POV: there is another different friendly unit in the SZ) category:

@ShadowHAwk:

What would happen in this situation.

Transports dont move but load and then unload from the same SZ.
A hostile submarine is available in the SZ as well as a friendly destroyer and some planes. ( so you can load )
Now defender scrambles 1 fighter and hits the destroyer.
Attacker kills the fighter but fails to destroy the sub.

As we are in combat and the planes cant hit the sub and the sub cant hit the planes it is a stalemate there.
You cannot unload because there is still sea combat going on.
You cannot retreat because to retreat you have to move to a zone that your naval was comming from which is this SZ.

Will the transports be defenseless ?? They cant run and the sub cant die.

Since it is clear that the defender have the choice to scramble planes or not, this situation will be put in the Subs with warships. I added the correction in the initial post.
I rationalize it this way: subs are mobilized to stop invasion and the amphib. assault so, instead fleeing any contact with ennemy’s ship, they are seeking them instead. Hence, no need to go on Air Search Patrol to find defending subs.

So, ennemy’s planes can destroy subs even if there is no DD on their side. See the opening post.

an old expansion for classic called for something similar. but it was 2 turns off the board a third turn on the board. even came with an index card sized tracker to keep track of how long it’s been off the board. You had to keep track of movements you made with each sub with a piece of paper. And had to make detection rolls to find them if they are off the board. If they were on the board no detection roll was needed. At anytime a player can call into question that the subs are where they are suppose to be and one allied player (of the axis choosing) and the other axis player. work together to track the subs movements and judge to make sure the rules aren’t broken. If the subs controller cheats he loses the sub. if either side gives away where a hidden sub is hiding the rulebreaker losing 12 ipcs worth of units and the opponents choosing which units. The expansion came with little white stickers so you could number the sea zones in classic. Ahead of it’s time in that respect. Normally the axis picked the russian player and would show them every round what was going on with there subs to avoid confussion later. It was alittle fun to be russia and know where everyone’s sub were and watch as everyone tried to find them. made the game light hearted. It gave the german player and russian player something they could look at each other and laugh about as they were trying to kill each other.

I think house rules child boards are a great idea!

@lnmajor:

how about this?
place a roundel under a sub on the board to signify its submerged. it can only move 1 space per turn submerged. you must use ASW search roll of 1-2 to detect sub from destroyer or cruiser. surfaced sub can move 2 spaces per turn. ASW roll is 1-4 when sub is surfaced. now, on second turn, if sub remains submerged put second roundel under sub. beggining of 3rd turn submerged sub must surface for 1 turn no matter where it is. even if it has to surface strait into hostile ships and be attacked.

not a bad idea. The one benefit to having them off the board is the surprise factor.

Great ideas though…

@Gallo:

I’ve read a lot about how annoying is that just one destroyer can cancel the special capacities of any giving number of subs.
I don’t find that very problematic myself

its not hugely problematic
just looks funny to have one destroyer tagging along a huge fleet

but some players suggest that you should match one destroyer with one sub for canceling subs capacities.

but what about this: one destroyers cancels the capacities of a wolf-pack of three subs… the fourth sub (and the next ones) still have their special abilities.

yeah the one-for-one rule is nicely intuitive
(because of original ruleset’s one-for-one bonus for infantry+artillery)

maybe you could make it simple and just make the wolf-pack cancelling 1-to-1 too?

all destroyers and cruiser may fire an ASW attack roll or normal combat roll, regardless of submarine detection

in your example effectively all 4 ships can fire ASW attack roll at the 1 detected submarine