Balancing Cruiser (CL) and Battleship (BB) units with other A&A units

A discussion in the Axis & Allies Global 1940 forum,
in this thread: Real value of units
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31933.msg1201576#msg1201576
… makes me think about this:

I’m almost sure that no one approach the “cruiser” problem in conjunction with the battleship issue.

What do you think of this solution for balancing the Light Cruiser (CL) and Battleship (BB) vs all other units?

Reducing the cost of both cruiser and BB of 2 IPCs
Do you think Larry Harris could accept this small change?
Do you see big problems with it?

@Baron:

@MrRoboto:

Cruiser: This is by far the weakest unit per IPC. It should cost 10 IPCs to match a fighter. It’s still weaker in defence, but does not need a carrier and has the bonus of bombardment.
The suggestment of cruiser having AAA ability sounds very interesting too, since cruisers don’t have a special ability at the moment (besides bombardment), while every other ship has.

The problem with a 10 IPCs CL is that 2 hits 20 IPCs BB will not be buy anymore:
2 CL= A6D6M2 2@3 bombardment and you can hit twice/rnd vs A4D4M2 1@4 bombd. can only hit once/rnd.
Do you see? And then you must lower BB to 18 IPCs… creating a double rule change but it still can be consistent.

Many also suggest to upgrade CL to a 3 moves ship and keeping the 12 IPCs cost.

@MrRoboto:

Cruiser: This is by far the weakest unit per IPC.
It should cost 10 IPC to match a fighter.
It’s still weaker in defense, but does not need a carrier and has the bonus of bombardment.
The suggestment of cruiser having AAA ability sounds very interesting too, since cruisers don’t have a special ability at the moment (besides bombardment), while every other ship has.

This is by far the weakest unit per IPC.
The more I make simulation in a battle calculator the more it reveals the truth of this blunt sentence.

Therefore,
It should cost 10 IPCs to match a fighter.
Even all the little AAA / 3 moves adjustments to get light cruiser (CL) a more interesting unit doesn’t counterbalance the competitive DDs, BBs and fighters in combat.

I put to test: CL A3D3M2C10 vs BB A4D4M2C18, 2 hits

9 CLs vs 5 BBs = 40% vs 56% for the battleship

4 CLs vs 5 DDs = 45% vs 50% for the destroyer

3 CLs vs 5 Subs= 43% vs 57% for submarines rolling “1” on defense!!!
3 CLs on def vs 5 SS on offence= 8% vs 92% for the subs of course.

And finally, 3 CLs vs 3 Fgts = 24% vs 63%.
The only even match: 3 CLs on def vs 3 Fgts on offence!

Larry Harris always refused to lower cruiser to 10 IPCs because the BB at 20 IPCs becomes of no interest.

Now, I say just lower the cost of both cruiser and BB of 2 IPCs.

Get cruiser at 10 IPCs and battleship at 18 IPCs.

At least, cruiser will be a better match even if it would still be inferior in battle against all other units.
Just add some of the other little +1 move or 1@1 AA to get a better balance unit inside the A&A system.

@Baron:

@MrRoboto:

Cruisers and Battleships only have bombardment and I find bombardment really weak. It’s far, far superior to just build carriers+planes, if you want your amphibious assaults to have more power.
So to make both ships more viable, it could help to buff bombardment to fire every round except only the first one. It’s also possible to buff bombardment to work the same way as Kamikaze and AAA hits, removing the defenders immediately, that are hit.

But still - as long as cruisers and battleships share the same ability (Bombardment), there will ALWAYS remain this problem:
One of them will be mathematically better IPC-wise. (If they are exactly equally strong, battleships will never be built).

So my suggestion to solve the current sea imbalances:

Give bombardment to only one of these ships and buff it. Give the other ship an entirely new skill, so that every ship has its own role. A possibility would be to give battleships the skill to bombard facilities. It could work like rockets (the technology). Every BB can shoot at one harbor/airfield/factory within a range of 2 (or coastal only maybe) for 1d6.

Interesting and never discuss options.
You should post it in the House rules on Light Cruiser thread I have just started.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32165.msg1202619#msg1202619

Maybe, we should give to BB a regular coastal bombardment @4 every round. But still let’s the defender casualty units roll for defense.
And give to CL 1 single coastal bombardment @3 in the first round as OOB rules.
It would probably be more historically accurate, I suppose because BB guns have a much greater range.

Adding some stats to think about all this for a BB A4D4C18 2 hits against other OOB units

1 BB vs 3 Subs on defense= 56% vs 44%  
instead of OOB 3 BBs (20 IPCs) vs 10 Subs on def= 41% vs 59%

1 BB vs 3 Subs on offense = 19% vs 80%
instead of :  3 BBs (20 IPCs) vs 10 Subs on off= 2% vs 98%

4 BBs vs 9 DDs = 53% vs 44% /
instead : 4 BBs (20 IPCs) vs 10 DDs = 32% vs 66%

5 BBs vs 9 CLs (10 IPCs)= 56% vs 40%

instead: 3BBs (20 IPCs) vs 5 CLs (12 IPCs)= 66% vs 28%

On a same IPCs cost basis,
reducing the cost for BB makes them prevail now against destroyers and against defending subs.
However, subs on offense still prevail on battleships.

The 2 IPCs reduced cost for both BB and CL is helping a little the Cruiser not to be too outmatch by the Battleship.

Effectively,
2BBs (18 IPCs) vs OOB 3 CLs (12 IPCs)= 73% vs 18% for the BBs of course.

11BBs (18 IPCs) vs 18 CLs (11 IPCs)= 88% vs 11% for the BBs .

Here we see that the too great number of units improve odds toward BBs.
5BBs + Damaged BB vs 9 CLs (11 IPCs) = 83% vs 15% for the BBs.

Very good and complete post. :-)

I am more of an historical influence basis for modifying rules.
That’s why I would keep shore bombardment for cruisers and let them have some AAA capacity, and moving at 3 without a naval base.

I have no problem giving Battleship something similar to TacBomber and StratBomber against IC, AB and NB. And it is a very original option indeed.  :-)

But only 1 territory away: 1D6 damage against industrial complex (not 1D6+2 as OOB for STrB), airbase and navalbase.

Now, with a lower cost I can also explain why I use CL as an abreviation for cruiser.
There is more room for other historical units for those who use more miniatures like HBG.

Light Cruiser, CL A3D3M2C10, 1 hit, shore bombardment 1@3
Battle Cruiser, CB A4D4M2C14, 1 hit, shore bombardment 1@4
Armored Cruiser, CA A3D3M2C15, 2 hits, shore bombardment 1@3

Battleship, BB A4D4M2C18, 2 hits, shore bombardment 1@4

To get more differences between cruiser vs BB:
A) Give all types of cruiser M3
B1) Give them 1 preemptive AA@1 on defense when paired with 1BB or 1CV
(I thought I was the first to think about it but… Imperious Leader got this idea first:)
http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=5216&start=24
B2) Give them 2 preemptives AA@1 on defense when paired with 1BB and 1CV
B3) Give to 1 cruiser 1 to 3 preemptives AA@1 on defense.
C) Give them both offence and defense on a roll of “1”, to hit 1 plane (owner choose the type of casualty Fgt, TB, StB).
D1) Give to CL a coastal bombardment @4 instead of only @3.

D2) Give to the BB 2 rounds of coastal bombardment @4 when there is at least 1 ground unit remaining from TT making the amphibious assault after first round.
E) Give to the BB 1D3 damage to either IC, Naval Base or Air Base as a coastal rocket attack.
F) Give to BB Plundging Fire on first rnd: 1@1 preemptive strike against surface vessels
G) Forbid BB to attack subs: A0 vs Subs. But play them on defense vs subs D4 as OOB rules.

With all this options, Cruisers and BBs will be bought and use for very different function. And I don’t think it will unbalance anything toward other naval units.

For historical accuracy, I prefer to give much more coastal bombardment punch to BB rather than cruiser.

With cruiser moving at 3, you get a fast reinforcement from newly built ones to replace lost ships in a crippled fleet.

Thank you for you accurate historical post.
If their is 3 types of cruiser during WWII named:
Light Cruiser (CL), Battlecruiser (CB) and Heavy Cruiser (CH or CA?)
It means you just have to change the sculpt on the board to adjust for the 3 caracterization of units:

Light Cruiser, CL A3D3M2C10, 1 hit, shore bombardment 1@3
Battle Cruiser, CB A4D4M2C12, 1 hit, shore bombardment 1@4
Armored becomes Heavy Cruiser, CA/CH A3D3M2C15, 2 hits, shore bombardment 1@3

Another precision, from a different thread:
@CWO:

@Baron:

CA= Heavy Cruiser
CV= Aircraft carrier (v-shaped aircraft)

The “V” in CV has no relationship to V-shaped aircraft.  Aircraft with swept wings didn’t exist when carriers were first developed.  The “V” comes from the second letter of “aviation”.  Carriers were originally considered to be an extension of the cruiser reconnaissance role, (which is where the “C” comes from), but “CA” (for “cruiser aviation”) couldn’t be used as a hull designation code for them because it was already used to designate heavy cruisers, so “CV” was chosen instead.

The main reason I input Light Cruiser for the main cruiser unit is that at a 10 IPCs cost their is much more room upward (11 to 17 IPCs) than downward (9 IPCs).
Who wants a cruiser A2 or D2 much like a destroyer if the standard cruiser is a heavy A3D3C10.

I didn’t cross-reference with the actual sculpt on the board.
That’s why your detail historical post add much value to this thread on cruiser. :-)

@CWO:

Regarding the alphabetic abbreviations you mention: technically they’re hull identification codes which are specific to the US Navy, though of course they’re useful as abbreviations for use in dice-roll tables.

As I recall, the USN used CA to designate heavy cruisers, CL to designate surface-combat light cruisers and CLAA to designate anti-aircraft light cruisers.�  Some projected post-WWI battlecruisers were supposed to be designated as CCs, but they were scrapped or converted into aircraft carriers.�  The CB designation was used to designate the Alaska class 12-inch gunned “large heavy cruisers”; these were essentially battlecruisers, but the USN never called them battlecruisers and the “CB” designation was a bit controversial at the time for that reason.

So, trying to balance completeness and historical accuracy with some simplifying assumptions, I’d recommend grouping cruisers into four basic types:

Battlecruisers (dice table abbreviation CB): with a few arguable exceptions, any cruiser with 11-inch (or larger) guns

Heavy cruisers (dice table abbreviation CA): mostly cruisers with 8-inch guns

Light cruisers (dice table abbreviation CL): mostly cruisers with 6-inch guns

Anti-aircraft cruisers (dice table abbreviation CLAA): cruisers with guns in (or around) the 5-inch category

So it seems to me we can agree about the code name and stats given to them (there is still room for discussion about little adjusment though.)

Light cruisers (dice table abbreviation CL): mostly cruisers with 6-inch guns

Anti-aircraft cruisers (dice table abbreviation CLAA): cruisers with guns in (or around) the 5-inch category

CL A3D3M2C10, 1 hit bombard 1@3

• Light cruisers.  These were defined by the Washington Naval Treaty as any cruiser with guns of 6-inch caliber or less.  The term “light cruiser” was roughly synonymous with “6-inch cruiser”, which was the most common type.  A significant number of cruisers, however, were what I call “ultra-light cruisers” (a term which, like ultra-heavy cruisers, wasn’t actually used during WWII).  In many cases they were designed as 5-inch gun anti-aircraft platforms, like the British Dido class and the American Atlanta class.

All this makes sense to give on a roll “1” to hit a plane since this group of cruiser is an antiaircraft Platform.

Heavy cruisers (dice table abbreviation CA): mostly cruisers with 8-inch guns

CA A3D3M2C15, 2 hits bombard 1@3

I thought Heavy cruiser have much better armour than light cruiser. Is it ?
If not, at least we can be sure that a 2 hits cruiser can still make damage after receiving a hit instead of being sunk like a light cruiser.
Maybe you have a better stat adjustment to get more realism?

Battlecruisers (dice table abbreviation CB): with a few arguable exceptions, any cruiser with 11-inch (or larger) guns

CB A4D4M2C12, 1 hit bombard 1@4

• Battlecruisers.  These were basically cruisers that were the size of battleships, which carried heavy guns of the same caliber as battleships (though typically in smaller numbers), which were more lightly armoured than battleships, but which generally had higher speeds.  Hood (for which A&A 1941 provides a sculpt) is a clear-cut example of a battlecruiser; her 15-inch guns were actually larger than those of the more modern KGV class battleships, which carried 14-inchers.

This one fit the description I think.

@Imperious:

To balance Cruiser you don’t change all the other naval units…

keep cost and add ability.

Move 3 ( or 4 from port)

and or add one free AA roll against any planes @1

Hi IL, I’m happy you show a little interest on this one.

The solution is exactly the opposite.

Just this simple and easy change on the cost (-2 IPCs) for both CL and BB, nothing more.

Of course, if you want more historical feeling and similarities, you can add the other option you just mentioned (and much others I posted in the first posts of this thread), in addition.

Said otherwise, why this reduced cost will not give a better balance between all naval units and even aircrafts?

Is there any reason to stick on the 12 IPCs cruisers and the 20 IPCs battleship?

The earlier reasons developed on other threads take about the lack of interest in a 20 IPCs BB when you get a Cruiser at 10 IPCs. Cruiser became too strong. To keep their relative strength, lower the price of BB to 18 IPCs.

So with 18 IPCs you can still buy 1 BB (of course) or 1DD and 1CL, keeping the same balance.

BB A4D4M2C18 vs 1DD A2D2M2C8 + 1CL A3D3M2C10= 39% vs 43% chance of survival
(which is the same as actual OOB rules) little advantage toward Cruiser and Destroyer.

Do you have any doubt about some unbalancing consequences (on buying? on the first few turns in any given game)?

Is this modifier a too great game changer that Germany fighters (10 IPCs) will fall under too much British and US cruisers (10 IPCs) protecting transports?

For now I need the community to help me foresee the disaster that will fall on a OOB global or 1942 game making this sole modifier on the cost.

@Imperious:

Is there any reason to stick on the 12 IPCs cruisers and the 20 IPCs battleship?

Yes because nobody wants to change everything, just what is broken. Otherwise it will be a rule for a few people.

Most people just want the most minimal thing changed. not changes that invalidate all the player aids. The prices of the other units are just fine. If you change everything you make the game worse.

The original design was to make Carriers the best buy, followed by Battleships. Not equalize every naval unit. Otherwise, just have one naval unit. Differences are what the game is about.

Just allowing them move +1 is the most simple thing possible.

Your argument is mainly an appeal to traditions.

Let’s suppose that when Spring 1942, and Global 1940 were edited, Larry Harris and Wizard of the Coast has made Cruiser a 10 IPCs unit and BB a 18 IPCs unit.
I don’t think anybody will have complained.

However creating an OOB 3 Moves cruiser would have sound strange since all ships have a move of 2 spaces. (As allowing AA gunnery to a cruiser, etc.) And would have need more rules for explanations.

The idea I propose need a double change because this two units have the same function in a fleet. Lowering cost for one and not the other make one more appealing than the other when you have to purchase a surface warship, it is a balance issue.