Super Stack or Stupid Stack?

Its just hard to imagine how russia can counter attack a large german stack that has like 15+ in tanks, over 20 some inf, 8 rtl and 10+ mech.  I do like the counter attack everywhere idea, just russia does not have the muscle to delay the german stack from reaching moscow at all if germany is smart.

@Cow:

g5 bryansk every game. it don’t matter what you do.

I’ll take you up on that if you’re willing.

As far as whether to counter or not, for me it’s situational. I don’t always counter and I don’t always not counter. It depends on how the game is developing. I have to gain something or at least deny something in order for me to counter. I like to add a little punch to the Russians and at least threaten the counter and thereby give the Germans pause and limit their options. I’m not going to roll over and play possum with the Germans, I like to make them work for it.

Played Axis against a very cagey USSR player face-to-face last week, who fought some defensive battles, but mostly just caved back to Moscow. Once he saw that Gstack was bigger than Rstack, he continued (!) to retreat to Middle East, where 2x UK factories had laid waste to Italians. Then, in Caucasus, made a combined USSR/UK unit stand against Germany. Both stacks are +70 units by this point. Succeeded in defence, wiping out all G infantry by round 2, and taking only Russian casualties. Counterattack with British armour also succeeded (after suicide charge by remaining USSR units softened the Axis even further), and for the rest of the game it was a nasty struggle for Germany in Russia – even with the extra income – until the US arrived en masse to tip the scales. So I’ve seen the superstack strategy work… IF the defender is willing to run even further away than Moscow!

@Gargantua:

With anything you’ve got.

If you’ve built air, great, use it.

If you’ve got some artillery, use them here and there too.

The point is, you need to fight 1, or 2, or 3, small battles each turn, to stem the tide.  A full retreat back to moscow, with NO RESISTANCE anywhere, is the worst thing the Russians could possibly be doing.

Surely the problem here though is that you presuppose the German player is using mini-stacks as opposed to two or three mega stacks as well…

To be honest I think if Germany goes full Barbarossa from G2 onwards then Russia has no chance, all they can do is buy time (and often not even that). And to be honest, I’m okay with that because if Russia could take Germany solo then it wouldn’t be a very balanced game…

look, the typical german play is g3 nov, g4 belarus, g5 bryansk. done deal. everything goes toward russia every turn. it does not matter what russia has where, you just shove.

Bomb aggressive russia buy players with japan. end russia G6.

This is easy to foresee with japan especially since most of you silly pandas do some J2 DOW stuff. Just buy bombers J2. don’t dow at all. bomb the russians G6 russia is done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NisCkxU544c

I am sure you have all seen this before, yet no one bombs the russians, that is sad.

That is on my forum to do list. Bomb the russians and J1 DOW.

@Cow:

look, the typical german play is g3 nov, g4 belarus, g5 bryansk. done deal.

that s what I was saying since my first day here in forums. but people either dont read or dont believe / try what s written. sad to see noobs still advocating some other ger openings (unnecessary romania fac, waiting till g3 or g4, building subs etc etc) are better for barb.

@Cow:

This is easy to foresee with japan especially since most of you silly pandas do some J2 DOW stuff. Just buy bombers J2. don’t dow at all. bomb the russians G6 russia is done.

no japs dow means super fortress egy with allies outproducing axis, sure axis will have a positional advantage but cracking egy might turn into a nightmare nevertheless.

j1 dow means egy fac on uk1, turning egy again into a fortress. the advantage compared to no dow is forcing usa spend much more in pac and axis will be on same level with allies regarding production

j2 dow is almost the same as j1 dow, but without an egy fac. so the usual j2 dow with going for india is still the most solid opening imho. sure u ll be getting moscow 3 rounds later but it will mean instant gg.

I think the best strategy for Russia if Germany goes all in is a controlled retreat and a stand in Bryansk. Fight germany and trade inf is good, because you gain the income as well. Inf and fgt vs inf is a common battle.

Focus the offencive power in the south and build inf in north and Moscow (dont build anything that you going to loose next round).  7inf and 4art is generally a good buy. Considder sending units into Middeleast if Germany DOW later than round 2, show Japan that you can send mobile units and planes into India r3 if you so choose to do so (you just have to show it).

UK should also build 2 IC in middeleast and pump out fgt,mec,tnk. Especialy if germany build carrier,dd and sub. India planes reach Syria round 1 for a total wipeout of Italy if Japan goes to soft.

This works very well as me and a friend took on the “mighty” cow and defeated him with ease using this moves. (although he did make some strange moves with Japan allowing US to gain a quick upper hand)  :wink:

And dont let all 18inf stand at Japan, send at least 6back.

By round 10 if Axis havent taken Russia,UK, Africa or India they loose due to the production dissadvantage. No need to play another 10runds then, unless Axis want to experience a slow death.

Falling back to Moscow without at least positional resistance would be a disaster for the USSR.

That being said, an effective defense by the USSR requires some complicated calculations. 2 inf have a better defense value (app. 60% chance of hit) than 1 tank (app 50%) and cost the same while giving you 2 hit points.  Thus you can figure you can easily hold off any tank stack on the defense if both sides are made up of equal IPCs.

Where this gets tricky is that Germany, given its superior IPCs and starting power, will have some infantry to screen the tanks and much more air, thus giving it the edge.  I think a successful USSR defense requires the USSR to bleed off the German infantry in small side battles, even if the trade is in the German favor.  The calculus is that it will take too long for the Germans to reinforce its armor with infantry by the time they can push to Moscow, thus presenting the Germans with the unappealing prospect of sending in tanks against infantry.

In practice good German players will not fall for it however.  They will push straight to Leningrad, pivot in Bel to Bry and park, and then start building up for the final push, leaving whatever side battles until later.

Russia is meant to fall. Just like Calcutta is meant to fall.  Sure if it holds that is GG.

Of course sometimes people risk losing UK and then germany goes for that. Taking london is a good move if you got 50% or better odds, as long as japan is being aggressive and smart in his pacific campaign. When you do sea lion yes russia does not fall in those games. Just like when japan takes new south wales… calcutta is greatly delayed.

How do you suggest attacking Germany then? Leaving single inf or inf and AA out to force him into attacking you and then counter attack?

Much of the time Germany use a stupid stack (or 2) themselves so you need to do something to split it.

yeah i pretty much “stupa” stack shove to nov then belarus than bryansk with germany. I just think of it as pushing to russia and not really caring about the little things.

@Gargantua:

Its just hard to imagine how russia can counter attack a large german stack that has like 15+ in tanks, over 20 some inf, 8 rtl and 10+ mech.

I’m not talking about hitting stacks that size.

I’m talking about people who sit in their capitals, surrounded by 1 infantry on all sides, and don’t attack outward - for free of -spreading out-.

It’s ridiculous, and people do it all the time.

I hate it too, and its alot less fun, but, if germany can just walk into moscow that is alot less defended cause you are soreading your units around in minor counter attacks, it does not really help in the long run.

Oh I will attack 1 infantry with 1 infantry and a fighter or two… sure I will do that, but the battles are limited to 1-3 a round.

What I hope you learn to understand, is for every unit you give up to take a territory back, the germans have to give one up too.  And it’s better to trade those dinky little territories, at a 1 to 1 ratio, fighting the big fight at the end, on a much smaller scale,  then it is to fight none of the small battles, and face a German army with an even higher -edge of advantage-.

Understand that, for each unit Germany has more than you, his chances increase exponentially.  So by keeping the stack sizes as low as reasonable,on both sides, (by bleeding units from your stack, forcing the enemy to bleed units from theirs) you increase your chances for victory.

You also make more economically too… which in turn, produces more units.  It’s a catch-22 that if someone doesn’t understand, cripples thier ability to play a defensive game.

I’m not saying go after ever little infantry out, but the more battles you make the Germans fight, over the same territories, again and again, the more chance you have of winning.

I agree, but you make it sound very complicated.

Trade units with germany whenever possible, idealy with UK!

And have allied air (anzac can reach, r1 java, r2 India, r3 russia) and mec to help you hold bryansk. (US bombers are great mobile defence)
Then you might actually win, you can also send units away from russia (china-middeleast mobile) as long as their back turn 5-6.

I think the confusion here is that in an expert scenario Germany isn’t going to leave Russia many counterattacks anyway.  Russia simply won’t have the chance to counter and will have to fall to Moscow if Germany is playing it smart.  It’s the taking Moscow itself that’s difficult for Germany.  So overall if an expert Germany is in a committed Barbarossa I’m pretty much buying inf and falling to Moscow.

Russia wants to make 1-2 small scale attacks per turn, if possible.  They want to use counterattacks to prevent Germany from building in Leningrad and Ukraine for as long as possible.   But they don’t want to overextend themselves and take overly risky trading battles.  By overly risky, i mean something like 2 inf 1 fig vrs. 2 inf.  As Russia, I’d rather have 2 inf art fig or 2 inf 2 fig vrs. 2 inf….  By committing my inf to a counter I’m already sacrificing these men, so I want to be sure I win the battle and the sacrifice isn’t in vain.  Since I’ve only got 3 fighters, I’ve got to pick my battles and not be too ambitious.

^^^^^^^^^