There is another way to win…

@shadowguidex:

The objectives above seem to me to be the “easiest” goals to accomplish for the Axis.  Let us examine these goals.  It becomes clear to me that equilibrium can be reached prior to involving Russia in the war but cannot do this without involving the USA.

Germany/Italy need to clear the med, take all of North Africa from Morocco to Egypt, take the Middle East, and take the neutrals in Europe.  This will require naval expenditure by Germany initially.

Japan needs to capture all of the Dutch East Indies, make minimal gains in China by capturing 5 territories, capture Borneo/Hong Kong, and break the Burma Road.

So what strategy will facilitate these objectives?  Logic would dictate that war with USA is inevitable to complete these goals, so lets declare against USA on G1 and go from there.

If the axis declare war on G1, the US will gain a min $20 per turn for 4 turns that are not nessasary, and the Japs will lose $10. How is this a path towards economic victory?

@JimmyHat:

I just realized I wrote this response to Jenn’s ‘7’ points and now the post I am responding to has been deleted!  I thought you wanted feedback Jenn.  Jeez.

Il musta removed it.

I could repost it, but it’s in your quote so I dont think I have too.

Sea Lion was broke in so much as England had to give up everything to defeat it, as your own tests show.  They could not, for instance, put 3 armor in S. Africa or build 2 destroyers in SZ 106, etc, because Germany would pretty much automatically win if they did that on Round 1.  Now, in my opinion and based on the limited experience anyone can possibly have at this time with Alpha 3, I don’t think that is the case.  I feel England has 10 IPC it can spend anywhere on the board and not risk Sea Lion.  (Well, more, that’s really just to spend yourself down to Alpha 2.  Again, in my opinion!)  Hence, when Gargantua said a complex in Egypt, I was sort of intrigued (fine I was intrigued, no sort of about it).  12 IPC?  Sure.  Since then I have lost interest because it is not just 12 IPC, it’s also putting units there which means a continual drain thus making Sea Lion more and more attractive to Germany again.

I feel you are agreeing with me about Russia.  They are no harder to beat now, and require Allied intervention to survive.  (While they may collect the NO for one or two rounds here and there in the game, it is, as you said, not assured in the least, so why not dump British and American units there?  You can dump more in value there than Russia can buy with the 5 IPC NO anyway, right?  Hell, 1 Loaded Transport is automatically more than 5 IPC, it is 6, 7, 8 or 9 IPC! {2 Infantry, Infantry & Artillery, Infantry & AA Gun, Infantry & Armor respectively})

Shadow, interesting analysis, but I think you under-rate the capitols.  It’s lost value + gained value + lost income from other territories + captured treasury.  (maybe you mentioned it and I did not see it.)  There is also utility cost for each territory.  FIC in your analysis may be off,  I rarely take FIC since I don’t want India or the US to later get it…if I don’t take it, then the Allies can never get it back for themselves, so the money becomes “lost.”  Otherwise, I have to dedicate units to defending it.  I feel you should downgrade it to 2 IPC change and only because someone takes France.

@Young:

If the axis declare war on G1, the US will gain a min $20 per turn for 4 turns that are not nessasary, and the Japs will lose $10. How is this a path towards economic victory?

Because Japan can destroy America’s Hawaiian fleet (6+8+12+7), the Philippines fleet (6+8), the British Battleship (20), capture Borneo denying Calcutta 4 IPCs and gaining 4 themselves, and limit Calcutta to only 10 IPCs their first round.  They can also grab French Indo-China.  Additionally Germany can convoy raid USA with at least two subs on round one which USA cannot counter on U1 costing them 6, and forcing USA to build something in the Atlantic to deal with them.  Also, Japan can begin to grab the Dutch East Indies worth 11+5. So adding up the benefits you outweigh the loss, force USA onto their back heels, and begin the task of actually winning the game instead of letting the Pacific Allies amass huge numbers of troops before you finally attack.  Time is against Japan, attack quickly and get to equilibrium as fast as possible.  Japan is at 40 IPCs at the end of J1 in my proposed scheme.  At the end of J2 they are even higher at around 56.  USA gets 64 IPCs after U1 and must push Destroyers into the Atlantic to deal with my German subs.  It’s a great strat in actuality.

Shadow, interesting analysis, but I think you under-rate the capitols.  It’s lost value + gained value + lost income from other territories + captured treasury.  (maybe you mentioned it and I did not see it.)

The capitals are all variable value.  If Japan already has all of Calcutta’a territories and another Burma Road territory then India is only worth 11 (3+3+5), but if India is the only British possession that Japan owns, it’s worth 25 (3+17+5).  The one time economic boon of captured IPCs doesn’t impact the game multiple turns down the line, so I’m discounting it’s impact.

There is also utility cost for each territory.

Agree, this isn’t added in.  Gibraltar is listed as 0 value towards economic equilibrium - but that’s correct, as it doesn’t impact the financial game at all aside from Italy’s 3.4 NO.  Regardless of everything, the Axis need to reach economic equilibrium - and on top of that they also need good positioning.

Shadow,

I have done exactly as you have described for a J1 surprise attack. (I did not include the German submarines, presumably shouldnt you attack SZ 101 with them, not just Convoy it?  Since there is no destroyer, scrambled units are a non-issue.)

Assuming Germany is a minor player here, (because I didn’t use it so what I am about to say may not be true if it is used) Japan always seems to get smacked hard when they do this.

Folks, see this thread and the leading text. At that time, I did not care about the victory cities one bit. The whole point of my first turn was to try to destroy as many units as I could with as little losses as I could while building up the income and looking to benefit from the logistics of the came.

The thing that scared me is US causing trouble to the italians in the Med early. However, it should not be too bad since Germany can help in the first few turns of the game.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=24435.0

After thinking about the long term logistics and economics of the game a fair bit, I am getting comfortable with my Germany strategy.

What puzzles me though is the Japan entry in the war and how it may affect the European board.

My current idea for Japan is the following:

Turn 1:

Build 3 transports, 1 Mech

Declare war on US, UK, Anzac

Combat 1: Repeat of Prince of Wales sinking, with 2 strategic bombers, cruiser from 20 and fighter from Formosa.

Combat 2: Land 1 infantry in Borneo (infantry from Kiangsi), Transport from zone 20, covers with fleet from Carolinas

Combat 3:  Attack Phillipines

Ground battle, 1 tank, 1 artillery and 2 infantry (2 remaining transport)
Tac bomber / figther from Carolinas carrier

See battle, 2 subs (zone 6 and 19), zone 19 battleship, zone 19 destroyer, cruiser from zone 6 and 2 carriers + planes from zone 6.

Combat 4: Take chahar with 1 infantry from Jehol

Combat 5: 2 infantry from Siam take French Indo

Combat 6: Attack Kwantung
1 Art from Kiangsi
2 INF from Kwangsi
2 Tac from Japan
1 fighter from Okinawa
1 fighter from Kiangsu
1 tac from Kiangsu

Combat 7: Attack Anwhe
1 Infantry and 1 Art from Jehol
3 infantry and 1 art from Kiangsu
3 infantry and 1 art from Shantung
1 Mech from Mandchuria

Combat 8: Attack Hunan
2 Inf from Kiangsi
2 fighters from Mandchuria (Goes to Kwangsi)
2 tac from Mandchuria (goes to Kwangsi)

Non Combat
4 Infantry from Korea into Mandchuria
6 Infantry from Mandchuria in Jehol

In Kwangsi
5 fighters (2 from Mandchuria, 1 Okinawa, 1 Formosa, 1 Kiangsu)
5 tactical bombers
2 bombers
1 ART
1 Inf

In Anwhe

7 Inf
1 Mec
3 Artillery

Leave in Japan to protect against Hawai fleet
2 DD
1 BB
3 fighters (1 from Korea, 2 from Japan)

Losses
1 cruiser zone 20
1 infantry in Kwantung
1 infantry in Hunnan  
2 infantry in Phillipines  
Total:   24 IPC

Japan collects 40 IPC

The result of Turn 1 is:

a) Weakened UK southeast fleet by destroying battleship, forces UK to spend all money on fleet and potentially pull out of the Med to reinforce India, giving relief to Italy.
b) took 7 IPC off UK bankrolll with Hong Kong and Borneo
c) UK / Anzac are not in position to take Dutch islands
d) japan well positioned to attack Malaya (Pounding on India more and crippling Anzac further)
e) China is pushed back a little bit and a decent stack of land units is moving down China
f) US loses Philipines (2 IPC + 5 IPC bonus)
g) preservation of Japanese Navy, Fleet off philipines can easily pull back to Japan as necesary
h) There is not much that India, China and Anzac or US can do in the immediate to retaliate.

Obvious disadvantage is that US gets more income immediately and has the initiative in Europe. For example. US forces could head straight for Gibraltar and link up with a portion of the British navy that survives. But, a critical portion of my European strategy is to control Gibraltar…

Let’s assume this continues:

On Turn 2, Japan:

May buy a carrier if US fleet is threatening
6 land units (infantry and mech infantry)
Maybe something else (e.g., or another transport)

Takes Malaya (UK down to 9, assuming persia was taken)
Takes Shan States to start putting pressure on India (UK down to
If Malaya is weak and if not costly to protect transport, take one of the Dutch Islands
Navy destroys blockers off 37, 42, 41, 38 and may attack fleet in Zone 39
Stays quiet and China, takes free territory, but avoid battles while moving south
Japan drops 6 land units on mainland with transport built (Kiangsu)
Watch moves of US navy and Anzac for transports and counter attacks on islands.

You note that I am not cutting the Burma road, but given the firepower in Hunnan and Kwangsi, the Chinese will build up stay back on Turn 2.

Meanwhile, the Italians focus on coming through Irak to squeeze in India good.

In Turn 3, japan builds up navy to handle US and keep expanding his grasp on the Islands and builds.

In Turn 4, India should fall and Japan will have plenty to face China, at least on a defensive basis (planes)

I think the US would need to react to this and spend a decent deal of IPCs in the Pacific?

My strategy with Germany is to steadily build a counter to UK / US invation while grinding into Russia with some help with the Italians (main objective is Leningrad and keeping Norway with a strong Navy.

Thoughts?

I’ve considered a Japan attack turn 2 strategy, but in this case I can’t seem to benefit as much from the initiative (don’t count on mistakes on the Allies’s players part, he’s quite good)

My strategy does not include attacking the US cruiser on G1, although this is juicy. The Germany Navy is already stretched out and this could influence russian purchases (although since russia can’t attack until turn 4, they got plenty of options).

I don’t think the US can really counter in the pacific. They can build up and force Japan to build up (In which case, Germany should do really well).

I see crushing India, preventing Anzac to grow and forcing US to spend IPC on both fronts to be critical to the Axis success. Since Japan has all those planes that do nothing if you just focus on China, I find this to be worth it.

I’m more worried about what the US can do in Europe than in the pacific.

@Gargantua:

I’m liking where this is going…  a G1 attack on the good ol USA,  kill their Cruiser / Transport.

They get to collect at the end of US1  +20  - if the Japanese don’t DENY them the NO…

US 2 +20

US 3 they collect it anyways.

So really, we are talking about 40 extra ipc’s if you attack the US on the first turn of the game.

The british in the pacific get hammered too…  the problem is, the US can counter, and attack units, causing problems… but how much damage can they do?  and is it expected?  What will the Japanese Position look like?  Let’s go farther down the rabbit hole here…

USA has to fight through the Japanese since they can win outright on J6 at Sydney following a J4 capture of India, so anything Germany can make USA build in the Atlantic is gravy.  If USA goes all Pacific then Germany can convoy disrupt them to oblivion, capture the West Indies, and lay waste to America’s income.  USA will be required to build naval units in the Atlantic if Germany is convoy raiding them for 6 or more each turn…with more subs on the way.  UK-London will need to defend against a possible Sealion feint for two rounds which won’t help deal with the subs.  Germany should get all of their G2 income to spend on Naval units to menace USA in the Atlantic, sub heavy obviously.  Italy should have a free hand in the Med. for a few rounds.  They need to get Cairo, North Africa, and the Middle East (those 75 Equilibrium points) and build defensively to deal with Russia on R4.  Sure, Russia is looming and will have a lot of offensive units, but By then India should be taken.

So, logically this seems like the best strategy to reach economic equilibrium with the Allies if you plan to win the game economically.

So the question I think needs asking…Should Japan go all in at Hawaii, or just send the Sub, planes, and a DD and send the CVs and BB to Wake Island to avoid American counterattack?  USA will have just four combat ships to use, but lots of planes (America may or may not scramble the two Hawaiian FTR on J1 if Japan only sends enough to get the job done and holds capital ships in reserve).

@Omega1759:

My strategy does not include attacking the US cruiser on G1, although this is juicy.

I, whole heartedly, agree that it is a juicy target.  However, we all forgot one thing:  Germany can only attack it with 1 submarine, the one from SZ 103, the others are blocked by the British destroyer in SZ 106.  So what we are really advocating is to redirect that submarine, instead of hitting the British Cruiser in SZ 91, it hits the American Cruiser/Transport in SZ 101.

You can still NCM another submarine to SZ 101 to get the 6 dmg to America, assuming you killed the destroyer in SZ 106.

Shadow,

I don’t think you can take Calcutta on round 4.  I tried once, I built nothing but transports to move my militia down to KWA (territory south of Hong Kong) in hopes of getting to India early, but the odds just did not work out.

Of course, perhaps I made a mistake and you are more than welcome to tell me how you do it, so I can see what I was doing differently. (Not accusatory, honest request for information.)

I don’t think attacking Hawai makes sense, puts your fleet out of position. I prefer focusing on the southeast and building carriers / repatriating fleet to deal with the growing threat in Haiwai.

@shadowguidex:

USA has to fight through the Japanese since they can win outright on J6 at Sydney following a J4 capture of India, so anything Germany can make USA build in the Atlantic is gravy.  If USA goes all Pacific then Germany can convoy disrupt them to oblivion, capture the West Indies, and lay waste to America’s income.  USA will be required to build naval units in the Atlantic if Germany is convoy raiding them for 6 or more each turn…with more subs on the way.  UK-London will need to defend against a possible Sealion feint for two rounds which won’t help deal with the subs.  Germany should get all of their G2 income to spend on Naval units to menace USA in the Atlantic, sub heavy obviously.  Italy should have a free hand in the Med. for a few rounds.  They need to get Cairo, North Africa, and the Middle East (those 75 Equilibrium points) and build defensively to deal with Russia on R4.  Sure, Russia is looming and will have a lot of offensive units, but By then India should be taken.

So, logically this seems like the best strategy to reach economic equilibrium with the Allies if you plan to win the game economically.

So the question I think needs asking…Should Japan go all in at Hawaii, or just send the Sub, planes, and a DD and send the CVs and BB to Wake Island to avoid American counterattack?  USA will have just four combat ships to use, but lots of planes (America may or may not scramble the two Hawaiian FTR on J1 if Japan only sends enough to get the job done and holds capital ships in reserve).

I have taken New Zealand and all of Australia from a J1 attack on Hawaii…don’t forget you can get to Queensland/New Zealand from there. (Or Central America for that matter.)

@Cmdr:

Shadow,

I don’t think you can take Calcutta on round 4.  I tried once, I built nothing but transports to move my militia down to KWA (territory south of Hong Kong) in hopes of getting to India early, but the odds just did not work out.

Of course, perhaps I made a mistake and you are more than welcome to tell me how you do it, so I can see what I was doing differently. (Not accusatory, honest request for information.)

Yeah you can, no problem.  J1 build is three transports, coupled with your original 3 is six usable.  Remember Calcutta-2 they only have 10 IPCs to spend (You take Borneo and Kwangtung on J1), Calcutta-3 they should only have 6 (You take Malaya and NEED to take Shan State on J2).  You build an airbase in French Indo-China on J3 and move your planes there.  J4 you attack and you’ll have the odds (6 INF, 6 ART, 2 STR, 6-7 FTR, 5 TAC) and NCM your planes to Shan State.  You will need some replacement infantry after the attacks on Philippines and Malaya which you can get from China and Siam - so plan accordingly to get them down to be picked up.

Same round J4 you grab Western Australia with a TRN or two you built on J2.  J5 you move all your planes from Shan State to Western Australia and move all your transports at India and the land units to Western Australia.  J6 you attack assuming you cleared any potential blocked.

AH!  That’s what we are doing differently!  You are doing a J1 attack to kill the BB, Borneo and Hong Kong while hitting the Americans at SZ 35 and 26. (The American attacks are assumed.)

Yeah, and capturing Philippines, obviously.  I move my Chinese units south to French Indo-China then Shan or Siam to provide reinforcements.

@shadowguidex:

Yeah, and capturing Philippines, obviously.  I move my Chinese units south to French Indo-China then Shan or Siam to provide reinforcements.

Do you attack pearl harbor?

@Omega1759:

@shadowguidex:

Yeah, and capturing Philippines, obviously.  I move my Chinese units south to French Indo-China then Shan or Siam to provide reinforcements.

Do you attack pearl harbor?

With ground units? I would not recommend it.  Doubly now that the transport that I think used to be in SZ 33 is gone now.  It might have been a transport in the carolines in anniversary…hard to remember back 400 years to what was and now is. lol.

@Omega1759:

Do you attack pearl harbor?

Yes you destroy the ships in the sea zone.  The two methods are to send all your ships including the battleship and carriers, or just send your planes, sub, and destroyer and keep youre capital ships away from an American counterattack.

Attacking Hawaii by land isn’t terribly important at this point in the game and I’d advise against it.  You won’t hold it this early and it doesn’t really set USA back much.  I usually capture Hawaii only after I have 5 VC and I get a nice opening.

@Cmdr:

I have taken New Zealand and all of Australia from a J1 attack on Hawaii…don’t forget you can get to Queensland/New Zealand from there. (Or Central America for that matter.)

How do you manage to take the land on J1 with 2 infantry and 2 fighters on the land and only 1 transport in reach? (LIE REMOVED)

~ Calm down Omega.  We’ve already established that there was a mistake in one game and it was rectified.  It was never my intent to actually move stuff beyond their range, but I was still learning in that game with Gamerman.  Accidents are not intent to violate the rules, to cheat, there must be intent.

@Omega1759:

@Cmdr:

I have taken New Zealand and all of Australia from a J1 attack on Hawaii…don’t forget you can get to Queensland/New Zealand from there. (Or Central America for that matter.)

How do you manage to take the land on J1 with 2 infantry and 2 fighters on the land and only 1 transport in reach?

She didn’t say ON J1 she said FROM J1…meaning that J1 attack started the chain of events.  Use your head, it’s impossible to capture NZ on J1.