There is another way to win…

[Omega1759]

My strategy does not include attacking the US cruiser on G1, although this is juicy. The Germany Navy is already stretched out and this could influence russian purchases (although since russia can’t attack until turn 4, they got plenty of options).

I don’t think the US can really counter in the pacific. They can build up and force Japan to build up (In which case, Germany should do really well).

I see crushing India, preventing Anzac to grow and forcing US to spend IPC on both fronts to be critical to the Axis success. Since Japan has all those planes that do nothing if you just focus on China, I find this to be worth it.

I’m more worried about what the US can do in Europe than in the pacific.

@Gargantua:

I’m liking where this is going…  a G1 attack on the good ol USA,  kill their Cruiser / Transport.

They get to collect at the end of US1  +20  - if the Japanese don’t DENY them the NO…

US 2 +20

US 3 they collect it anyways.

So really, we are talking about 40 extra ipc’s if you attack the US on the first turn of the game.

The british in the pacific get hammered too…  the problem is, the US can counter, and attack units, causing problems… but how much damage can they do?  and is it expected?  What will the Japanese Position look like?  Let’s go farther down the rabbit hole here…

[shadowguidex]

USA has to fight through the Japanese since they can win outright on J6 at Sydney following a J4 capture of India, so anything Germany can make USA build in the Atlantic is gravy.  If USA goes all Pacific then Germany can convoy disrupt them to oblivion, capture the West Indies, and lay waste to America’s income.  USA will be required to build naval units in the Atlantic if Germany is convoy raiding them for 6 or more each turn…with more subs on the way.  UK-London will need to defend against a possible Sealion feint for two rounds which won’t help deal with the subs.  Germany should get all of their G2 income to spend on Naval units to menace USA in the Atlantic, sub heavy obviously.  Italy should have a free hand in the Med. for a few rounds.  They need to get Cairo, North Africa, and the Middle East (those 75 Equilibrium points) and build defensively to deal with Russia on R4.  Sure, Russia is looming and will have a lot of offensive units, but By then India should be taken.

So, logically this seems like the best strategy to reach economic equilibrium with the Allies if you plan to win the game economically.

So the question I think needs asking…Should Japan go all in at Hawaii, or just send the Sub, planes, and a DD and send the CVs and BB to Wake Island to avoid American counterattack?  USA will have just four combat ships to use, but lots of planes (America may or may not scramble the two Hawaiian FTR on J1 if Japan only sends enough to get the job done and holds capital ships in reserve).

[Jennifer]

@Omega1759:

My strategy does not include attacking the US cruiser on G1, although this is juicy.

I, whole heartedly, agree that it is a juicy target.  However, we all forgot one thing:  Germany can only attack it with 1 submarine, the one from SZ 103, the others are blocked by the British destroyer in SZ 106.  So what we are really advocating is to redirect that submarine, instead of hitting the British Cruiser in SZ 91, it hits the American Cruiser/Transport in SZ 101.

You can still NCM another submarine to SZ 101 to get the 6 dmg to America, assuming you killed the destroyer in SZ 106.

[Jennifer]

Shadow,

I don’t think you can take Calcutta on round 4.  I tried once, I built nothing but transports to move my militia down to KWA (territory south of Hong Kong) in hopes of getting to India early, but the odds just did not work out.

Of course, perhaps I made a mistake and you are more than welcome to tell me how you do it, so I can see what I was doing differently. (Not accusatory, honest request for information.)

[Omega1759]

I don’t think attacking Hawai makes sense, puts your fleet out of position. I prefer focusing on the southeast and building carriers / repatriating fleet to deal with the growing threat in Haiwai.

@shadowguidex:

USA has to fight through the Japanese since they can win outright on J6 at Sydney following a J4 capture of India, so anything Germany can make USA build in the Atlantic is gravy.  If USA goes all Pacific then Germany can convoy disrupt them to oblivion, capture the West Indies, and lay waste to America’s income.  USA will be required to build naval units in the Atlantic if Germany is convoy raiding them for 6 or more each turn…with more subs on the way.  UK-London will need to defend against a possible Sealion feint for two rounds which won’t help deal with the subs.  Germany should get all of their G2 income to spend on Naval units to menace USA in the Atlantic, sub heavy obviously.  Italy should have a free hand in the Med. for a few rounds.  They need to get Cairo, North Africa, and the Middle East (those 75 Equilibrium points) and build defensively to deal with Russia on R4.  Sure, Russia is looming and will have a lot of offensive units, but By then India should be taken.

So, logically this seems like the best strategy to reach economic equilibrium with the Allies if you plan to win the game economically.

So the question I think needs asking…Should Japan go all in at Hawaii, or just send the Sub, planes, and a DD and send the CVs and BB to Wake Island to avoid American counterattack?  USA will have just four combat ships to use, but lots of planes (America may or may not scramble the two Hawaiian FTR on J1 if Japan only sends enough to get the job done and holds capital ships in reserve).

[Jennifer]

I have taken New Zealand and all of Australia from a J1 attack on Hawaii…don’t forget you can get to Queensland/New Zealand from there. (Or Central America for that matter.)

[shadowguidex]

@Cmdr:

Shadow,

I don’t think you can take Calcutta on round 4.  I tried once, I built nothing but transports to move my militia down to KWA (territory south of Hong Kong) in hopes of getting to India early, but the odds just did not work out.

Of course, perhaps I made a mistake and you are more than welcome to tell me how you do it, so I can see what I was doing differently. (Not accusatory, honest request for information.)

Yeah you can, no problem.  J1 build is three transports, coupled with your original 3 is six usable.  Remember Calcutta-2 they only have 10 IPCs to spend (You take Borneo and Kwangtung on J1), Calcutta-3 they should only have 6 (You take Malaya and NEED to take Shan State on J2).  You build an airbase in French Indo-China on J3 and move your planes there.  J4 you attack and you’ll have the odds (6 INF, 6 ART, 2 STR, 6-7 FTR, 5 TAC) and NCM your planes to Shan State.  You will need some replacement infantry after the attacks on Philippines and Malaya which you can get from China and Siam - so plan accordingly to get them down to be picked up.

Same round J4 you grab Western Australia with a TRN or two you built on J2.  J5 you move all your planes from Shan State to Western Australia and move all your transports at India and the land units to Western Australia.  J6 you attack assuming you cleared any potential blocked.

[Jennifer]

AH!  That’s what we are doing differently!  You are doing a J1 attack to kill the BB, Borneo and Hong Kong while hitting the Americans at SZ 35 and 26. (The American attacks are assumed.)

[shadowguidex]

Yeah, and capturing Philippines, obviously.  I move my Chinese units south to French Indo-China then Shan or Siam to provide reinforcements.

[Omega1759]

@shadowguidex:

Yeah, and capturing Philippines, obviously.  I move my Chinese units south to French Indo-China then Shan or Siam to provide reinforcements.

Do you attack pearl harbor?

[Jennifer]

@Omega1759:

@shadowguidex:

Yeah, and capturing Philippines, obviously.  I move my Chinese units south to French Indo-China then Shan or Siam to provide reinforcements.

Do you attack pearl harbor?

With ground units? I would not recommend it.  Doubly now that the transport that I think used to be in SZ 33 is gone now.  It might have been a transport in the carolines in anniversary…hard to remember back 400 years to what was and now is. lol.

[shadowguidex]

@Omega1759:

Do you attack pearl harbor?

Yes you destroy the ships in the sea zone.  The two methods are to send all your ships including the battleship and carriers, or just send your planes, sub, and destroyer and keep youre capital ships away from an American counterattack.

Attacking Hawaii by land isn’t terribly important at this point in the game and I’d advise against it.  You won’t hold it this early and it doesn’t really set USA back much.  I usually capture Hawaii only after I have 5 VC and I get a nice opening.

[Omega1759]

@Cmdr:

I have taken New Zealand and all of Australia from a J1 attack on Hawaii…don’t forget you can get to Queensland/New Zealand from there. (Or Central America for that matter.)

How do you manage to take the land on J1 with 2 infantry and 2 fighters on the land and only 1 transport in reach? (LIE REMOVED)

~ Calm down Omega.  We’ve already established that there was a mistake in one game and it was rectified.  It was never my intent to actually move stuff beyond their range, but I was still learning in that game with Gamerman.  Accidents are not intent to violate the rules, to cheat, there must be intent.

[shadowguidex]

@Omega1759:

@Cmdr:

I have taken New Zealand and all of Australia from a J1 attack on Hawaii…don’t forget you can get to Queensland/New Zealand from there. (Or Central America for that matter.)

How do you manage to take the land on J1 with 2 infantry and 2 fighters on the land and only 1 transport in reach?

She didn’t say ON J1 she said FROM J1…meaning that J1 attack started the chain of events.  Use your head, it’s impossible to capture NZ on J1.

[Omega1759]

@shadowguidex:

@Omega1759:

Do you attack pearl harbor?

Yes you destroy the ships in the sea zone.  The two methods are to send all your ships including the battleship and carriers, or just send your planes, sub, and destroyer and keep youre capital ships away from an American counterattack.

Attacking Hawaii by land isn’t terribly important at this point in the game and I’d advise against it.  You won’t hold it this early and it doesn’t really set USA back much.  I usually capture Hawaii only after I have 5 VC and I get a nice opening.

You really need to go strong to bring your capital ships there. America can hit back with a lot of strength and the fighters / tacs on the carriers don’t have anywhere to land. I doubt you can bring enough there and be safe attacking the Phillipines and establishing a dominant position in the south pacific.

Sending only the small stuff after the fleet will result in the small stuff being destroyed on the next turn. Plus, you need planes to support this attack, where are they coming from and where do they land?

For being able to attack the prince of whales, the phillipines and borneo, my conclusion was that attacking pearl harbor was not the best thing to do. 33 IPC worth of units are not worth putting your ships out of position or losing precious subs, destroyers and potentially planes.

[Omega1759]

@shadowguidex:

@Omega1759:

@Cmdr:

I have taken New Zealand and all of Australia from a J1 attack on Hawaii…don’t forget you can get to Queensland/New Zealand from there. (Or Central America for that matter.)

How do you manage to take the land on J1 with 2 infantry and 2 fighters on the land and only 1 transport in reach? Are your planes moving 6 again?

She didn’t say ON J1 she said FROM J1…meaning that J1 attack started the chain of events.  Use your head, it’s impossible to capture NZ on J1.

It sounds like she took NZ or queensland on J2 after a J1 attack on Haiwai. This presumes she took the naval base (the land) on J1.

If she took Hawai on J2, then she could take NZ or queensland on J3… (not sure why the US would allow this to happen, but this is not clear!)

[Jennifer]

I am sorry if that is how it sounded.  I said from taking Hawaii you can take New Zealand and all of Australia (with a landing threat in Queensland immediately after taking Hawaii.)

In my game against Jmite, I did not take it on Japan 2.  I don’t think I actually took it until Japan 3, but it could have been Japan 4.  It’s been a while since I saw that specific game and I have played a lot more between then and now to boot.

If I can remember correctly, I brought everything to Pearl that could go.  Instead of taking hits to my waships, I lost planes and replaced them with planes that couldn’t go before due to carrier space.  I am speaking of the Fighter on Korea and the 2 Fighters, Tactical Bombers on Japan.  America does have 14 punch there, so it is not unexpected to have 3 hits on the defense of SZ 26.  Now, they almost certianly wont scramble the fighters on Hawaii!  So that goes down to 6 punch and one hit expected.  The 3 aircraft mentioned are more than necessary to replace losses.  (I’d say swap out the tacticals with the fighters as best you can.  So hits go to Tacticals and then you fly replacement fighters over.  Just for the extra defense.)

Purchases can be 3 transports, that gives you 8 ground forces to hit Hawaii with on Japan 2.

On Japan 3, you can hit New Zealand and/or Queensland if you like.

[Omega1759]

Makes more sense.

Going back to the main point: I still think that going after Haiwai is a bad idea. You lose the logistical advantage against the US and you risk being too weak to clear up the DEI.

@Cmdr:

I am sorry if that is how it sounded.  I said from taking Hawaii you can take New Zealand and all of Australia (with a landing threat in Queensland immediately after taking Hawaii.)

In my game against Jmite, I did not take it on Japan 2.  I don’t think I actually took it until Japan 3, but it could have been Japan 4.  It’s been a while since I saw that specific game and I have played a lot more between then and now to boot.

If I can remember correctly, I brought everything to Pearl that could go.  Instead of taking hits to my waships, I lost planes and replaced them with planes that couldn’t go before due to carrier space.  I am speaking of the Fighter on Korea and the 2 Fighters, Tactical Bombers on Japan.  America does have 14 punch there, so it is not unexpected to have 3 hits on the defense of SZ 26.  Now, they almost certianly wont scramble the fighters on Hawaii!  So that goes down to 6 punch and one hit expected.  The 3 aircraft mentioned are more than necessary to replace losses.  (I’d say swap out the tacticals with the fighters as best you can.  So hits go to Tacticals and then you fly replacement fighters over.  Just for the extra defense.)

Purchases can be 3 transports, that gives you 8 ground forces to hit Hawaii with on Japan 2.

On Japan 3, you can hit New Zealand and/or Queensland if you like.

[shadowguidex]

Going back to the main point: I still think that going after Haiwai is a bad idea. You lose the logistical advantage against the US and you risk being too weak to clear up the DEI.

I send 2 FTR, 2 TAC, 1 STR, 1 SUB, 1 DD to Hawaii and kill off the American ships and possible scramblers.  I send the Carriers, Battleship, and escorts to Wake Island to pick up the planes.  If you lose the destroyer, you move another down as a blocker.  The carriers and battleship are safe.  USA goes from 9 Warships in the Pacific to 4.  USA needs to build Atlantic - at least a destroyer - to fend off the German subs.  Japan is in no danger of losing their fleet on USA1.

I’m not sure what your preferred strategy is, but what we’re doing on this thread is coming up with a strategy that fulfills the economic criteria to get the Axis on par with the Allies in IPC income.  If you’re a panzy “wait till round 4 to attack anyone” kind of player, then I assume you’re accustomed to losing as the Axis.  The Axis starts out with all the initiative and can set the Allies on their back foot from round one - why squander that and give the Allies lots of time to build and position unmolested.

You don’t need the fleet at Japan to clear the Dutch East Indies.  A J1 attack will render the Allies incapable of contesting them - ANZAC has two ships and Calcutta has 2 ships - your fleet off Shanghai and land based planes can handle the task.  You grab  up the DEI at your leisure.

[Omega1759]

I posted my detailed J1 strategy in this thread (how about you take a look), just expressing a preference for not attacking the Hawai sea zone.

Your fleet in Wake seems to be quite out of position.

Can you explain how you get the Phillipines with the rest of your navy?

@shadowguidex:

Going back to the main point: I still think that going after Haiwai is a bad idea. You lose the logistical advantage against the US and you risk being too weak to clear up the DEI.

I send 2 FTR, 2 TAC, 1 STR, 1 SUB, 1 DD to Hawaii and kill off the American ships and possible scramblers.  I send the Carriers, Battleship, and escorts to Wake Island to pick up the planes.  If you lose the destroyer, you move another down as a blocker.  The carriers and battleship are safe.  USA goes from 9 Warships in the Pacific to 4.  USA needs to build Atlantic - at least a destroyer - to fend off the German subs.  Japan is in no danger of losing their fleet on USA1.

I’m not sure what your preferred strategy is, but what we’re doing on this thread is coming up with a strategy that fulfills the economic criteria to get the Axis on par with the Allies in IPC income.  If you’re a panzy “wait till round 4 to attack anyone” kind of player, then I assume you’re accustomed to losing as the Axis.  The Axis starts out with all the initiative and can set the Allies on their back foot from round one - why squander that and give the Allies lots of time to build and position unmolested.

You don’t need the fleet at Japan to clear the Dutch East Indies.  A J1 attack will render the Allies incapable of contesting them - ANZAC has two ships and Calcutta has 2 ships - your fleet off Shanghai and land based planes can handle the task.  You grab  up the DEI at your leisure.