I would try your idea but each time we reach a VC win, both players are wayyy tired and ready to be done. If you can find someone who is willing to play to the bitter end, then I would suggest trying this strategy and seeing if you can then resuscitate the Japanese.
I would try your idea but each time we reach a VC win, both players are wayyy tired and ready to be done. If you can find someone who is willing to play to the bitter end, then I would suggest trying this strategy and seeing if you can then resuscitate the Japanese.
Generally, we would look at the IPC count and the board to see who would win at that point. We don’t need to fight to the end, we give up when the other side has a sustainable advantage that cannot be turned.
After the scenario where both Germany and Japan go after russia…
Would have US at 70, UK at 30, India in the 25-30s, Anzac in the 20s, China in the 20s (160 total) against:
Japan in the 30s (Japan + Russia soon to be dead)
Germany in the 60s (original + russia less Norway / iron ore)
Italy in the 20s (can’t be that successful if India is strong)
110…
I think we would consider at that point that the allies have won…
How do you deal with combined threat of US navy moving to Haiwai, the UK regrouping / building its fleet and Anzac sending fighters over to help the UK?
IS the UK / Anzac taking over the DEI?
I do my best to cat-and-mouse with the Americans…destroyer blocks work o.k., and can cause them to spread their fleet. The U.K. fleet, even after regrouping, isn’t all that tough to take out, and they don’t often have the cash to buy more ships.
The DEI is usually 3/4, if not entirely, enemy-controlled by the time I spring, but usually with one (at most two) infantry per. Most often there are two Zacks on Java, an empty Borneo, and maybe one each in Celebes and Sumatra. I usually hit the lightly defended ones in my first war round, along with any U.K./ANZAC boats that can support them, and clean up the others next round. U.S. is rarely in a position to support them.
The hardest part is keeping the U.S. out of a position where they can bring their weight to bear. I dodge 'em (and occasionally leave juicy targets for them simply to get them to go after them and be out of position) while trying to secure (most of) China and the South Pacific, choking Anzerk with subs. Try not to go head-to-head until you’re cranking good money, and really not even then if you can help it.
On your point in bold, the UK India fleet will be:
1 Carrier built turn 1, equiped with 2 planes
1 BB
1 Cruiser
1 Destroyer
1 Destroyer from South Africa
1 French destroyer
Potentially the Egypt Aircraft Carrier and Cruiser and any Turn 2 purchases (if UK takes DEI, they will have money to buy more ships)
Potential to use Anzac planes
Combine this with threat from US fleet and I think you would be outnumbered by Turn 3.
How do you deal with combined threat of US navy moving to Haiwai, the UK regrouping / building its fleet and Anzac sending fighters over to help the UK?
IS the UK / Anzac taking over the DEI?
I do my best to cat-and-mouse with the Americans…destroyer blocks work o.k., and can cause them to spread their fleet. The U.K. fleet, even after regrouping, isn’t all that tough to take out, and they don’t often have the cash to buy more ships.
The DEI is usually 3/4, if not entirely, enemy-controlled by the time I spring, but usually with one (at most two) infantry per. Most often there are two Zacks on Java, an empty Borneo, and maybe one each in Celebes and Sumatra. I usually hit the lightly defended ones in my first war round, along with any U.K./ANZAC boats that can support them, and clean up the others next round. U.S. is rarely in a position to support them.
The hardest part is keeping the U.S. out of a position where they can bring their weight to bear. I dodge 'em (and occasionally leave juicy targets for them simply to get them to go after them and be out of position) while trying to secure (most of) China and the South Pacific, choking Anzerk with subs. Try not to go head-to-head until you’re cranking good money, and really not even then if you can help it.
Oh yeah…but they aren’t combined with the U.S. Fleet by turn 3. It’s conceivable the Brits could meet up with the U.S. by 3, but they wouldn’t be doing it off of India. I don’t usually see that happen, though. U.S. often hangs around Hawaii turn one and two, waiting for its first build to hit the water and then catch up, leaving them starting from Hawaii on their third turn.
The Japs can easily overpower the Calcutta navy by itself, I think, even if they do build a carrier first round (never seen that, not sure I think it’s a good idea, but o.k.). Japs have two fully loaded carriers, even if they leave on to mess with America, plus a cruiser or two, a battleship at least, and a farkton of planes (including a couple of bombers). I’d be happy to see them building nothing but navy, as it means I’m likely winning on the mainland (I usually purchase a minor factory first round).
If I can pull the U.K. boats from the Med and Africa to my side of the board, that makes me pretty happy as well. I probably won’t be winning that game, but Italy better own the damn Med, and hopefully German U-Boats will be raiding off of western Africa. Could probably still knock those out, though, I think.
The only way the Medfica boats could meet the Americans, to get them ALL in one place on round three, would be with the starting American fleet (no builds) in, what, Malaya or something, maybe?
The UK / US fleets don’t need to meet to be an issue for Japan.
In start of UK Turn 3, the UK fleet I talked about can be assembled in India. It’s available for counterattack on any Japan fleet(s) that would want to grab the DEI. In order for DEI Japanese fleet to survive, it preferably needs a couple of carriers. The deterrent will probably result in Japan being much more prudent about invading the DEI
In the meantime, the US navy is building up in Hawai. This means Japan can’t leave it’s own sea zone too weak either.
3 AC
1 BB
2 Cruis
2 DD
1 Sub
5 FG
1 Tac
Another option would be for the Jap navy to attack the UK navy in the india zone. However, on top of the fleet I mentioned, there are the 2 anzac fighters that can be landed on the carrier, making the rest of the RAF available for scramble. To send all this at the bottom of the ocean is possible for Japan, but it will come at a cost (not mentioning that UK could block you if you really bring everything south).
Oh yeah…but they aren’t combined with the U.S. Fleet by turn 3. It’s conceivable the Brits could meet up with the U.S. by 3, but they wouldn’t be doing it off of India. I don’t usually see that happen, though. U.S. often hangs around Hawaii turn one and two, waiting for its first build to hit the water and then catch up, leaving them starting from Hawaii on their third turn.
The Japs can easily overpower the Calcutta navy by itself, I think, even if they do build a carrier first round (never seen that, not sure I think it’s a good idea, but o.k.). Japs have two fully loaded carriers, even if they leave on to mess with America, plus a cruiser or two, a battleship at least, and a farkton of planes (including a couple of bombers). I’d be happy to see them building nothing but navy, as it means I’m likely winning on the mainland (I usually purchase a minor factory first round).
If I can pull the U.K. boats from the Med and Africa to my side of the board, that makes me pretty happy as well. I probably won’t be winning that game, but Italy better own the damn Med, and hopefully German U-Boats will be raiding off of western Africa. Could probably still knock those out, though, I think.
The only way the Medfica boats could meet the Americans, to get them ALL in one place on round three, would be with the starting American fleet (no builds) in, what, Malaya or something, maybe?
Heh, I didn’t say it would be easy. Just sharing my experience with how it usually goes in our games. Again, Calcutta building a CV first round would tickle me pink, as would U.K. sending the Med fleet east. Sending Anzac fighters to India gives me a similar warm 'n fuzzy.
I think it’s cool that they’ve got it set up to where you’re tempted to strike with Japan round one. It’s just not tempting enough, for me personally.
Have you already tried this in a game? It depends on tour opponent’s reaction, until then its guessing. I personally do not think it is worth it, mainly because you unleash the US as a war machine and you give them the initiative, not in the last place in the European theater. I also think the UK fleet in the Med is better used against Italy than against Japan.
I tried it in one game and went after Pearl Harbor on Turn 1. I pursued and destroyed the US Navy, but at ridiculous level of losses (my opponent rolled 9 out of 9 dice spot on during the first round of battle)
So no, I have not tried this again, but obviously thinking about it.
The US gains some tactical flexibility (especially in Europe).
If US focuses solely on Europe, I would think Japan can pull out the victory cities before Germany falls.
If US focuses solely on Japan, I’ve looked at how purchases / moves play out, and it seems like Japan is able to use its air force to maintain naval parity by building carriers (see below)
This below assume that Anzac and UK don’t cause too much trouble. Basically, the Japanese air force is worth 222 IPCs, what use are you getting for it if you don’t attack early?
The numbers below show how the board would look like at the beginning of the US turn. Important to watch is the attack value of the third column (Hawai) against the defense value of the first column (Japan). The second column represents the Japanese fleet that should take care of the UK / India, along with transports built Turn 1 and a ground push.
Turn 2 US Turn
Japan JP Other US Hawai US Cal
AC 2 2 1 2
BB 1 1 1 0
Cruis 0 1 2 0
DD 2 2 2 0
Sub 0 2 1 0
FG 5 2 1 4
Tac 2 2 1 0
Value 38 31 23 12
Hits 15 15 11 8
Turn 3 US Turn
Japan JP Other US Hawai US Cal
AC 4 2 3 1
BB 1 1 1 0
Cruis 0 1 2 0
DD 2 2 2 0
Sub 0 2 1 5
FG 7 2 5 1
Tac 4 2 1 1
Value 56 31 35 17
Hits 23 15 19 9
Turn 4 US Turn
Japan JP Other US Hawai US Cal
AC 6 2 4 1
BB 1 1 1 0
Cruis 0 1 2 0
DD 2 2 2 0
Sub 0 2 6 5
FG 9 2 6 1
Tac 6 2 2 1
Value 74 31 52 17
Hits 31 15 28 9
Turn 5 US Turn
Japan JP Other US Hawai US Cal
AC 7 0 5 1
BB 2 0 1 0
Cruis 1 0 2 0
DD 4 0 2 0
Sub 2 0 11 5
FG 10 0 7 1
Tac 7 0 3 1
Value 96 0 69 17
Hits 42 0 37 9
It’s interesting to see these old threads (almost 10 years old). Today’s dominant theory is indeed a J1.
@Omega1759 said in What Turn to Attack with Japan?:
It’s interesting to see these old threads (almost 10 years old). Today’s dominant theory is indeed a J1.
Wow! I was pretty sure I saw a video by Young Grasshopper years ago that argued for a J1. However I see per this thread that Young Grasshopper is actually against it and Omega1759 was the first to propose it. My apologies and I will need to change my article Warfare Principles of Axis and Allies and give due credit to Omega1759.
I always thought it was cow who originated it. Good to know. As in the real world, things do develop in parallel : )
@barnee said in What Turn to Attack with Japan?:
I always thought it was cow who originated it. Good to know. As in the real world, things do develop in parallel : )
I believe Cow is the one that exercised it / pushed it to the level of respect it deserves.
