What if Hitler aimed *only* for Leningrad and Stalingrad in 1941?


  • @Narvik:

    Like in chess, when you capture the King, you win the game. Its kind of like that in real wars too, especially with dictators like Stalin and Hitler. We must assume that if Stalin or Hitler were killed, then the war would stop. This is a general pattern in history. When a King, a Dictator or his capitol is taken, then the war ends. This was true when Hitler and Berlin fell, the rest of the nazis surrendered, they could not keep on fighting for the nazy cause, because the Head was cut off. The same was true with Mussolini and Italy. When the Russian Tsar was killed in 1917 and his capitol St. Petersburg captured, then the Russian empire was out of the war. Or look to France, every time Paris fell, then the rest of France surrender, always, even if the French rulers are still alive, or the French Army is still undefeated on the Battlefield.

    Base on this, it is obvious that if Stalin was killed, then all Russians would surrender. And I don’t think Stalin would survive losing Moscow. So the conclusion is, that Moscow was the decisive object that needed to be taken to win the war. I say that to take Moscow was the only victory condition for Germany. Hitler did not have to beat the Red Army in the battlefield, or capture the Baku oilfields, or bomb Russian industry. He just had to take Moscow. Simple as that. Hitler failed doing this, just because he found it more important to kill Jews.

    The chess king analogy only partially works when it’s applied to real warfare.  In chess, victory or defeat depend entirely on just one factor which can exist in just one of two possible conditions: whether or not the opponent’s king is still in play.

    Real warfare isn’t like that.  In a real war, continued resistance by the enemy depends on four things: 1) to what extent the military forces retains the physical ability and psychological willingness to keep fighting; 2) to what extent the nation’s economic and industrial infrastructure can keep supplying the war effort with the resources it needs; 3) to what extent the political leadership retains the will, the skill, and the command-and-control mechanisms it needs to keep fighting; 4) and to what extent the civilian population retains its ability and its willingness to keep producing (because they are a part of the  economy mentioned in my second point) and to maintain their consent to be governed (because they are a part of the overall political situation that related to the third point).

    The concept that “When a King, a Dictator or his capitol is taken, then the war ends” correlates with a number of historical examples, but doesn’t correlate with others.  The war between Napoleonic France and Tsarist Russia didn’t end when the French occupied Moscow – and in fact France ended up losing it.  The war between Germany and Russia in WWI didn’t end with the February 1917 which overthrew the Tsar; the armistice only came in December 1917.  In WWII, Germany didn’t surrender when Hitler committed suicide on April 30th 1945, nor when  Berlin capitulated to the Russians on May 2nd; it ended a week later.

    Also keep in mind that, even if capturing the enemy’s capital and/or overthrowing (or killing) the enemy’s leader does sometimes mark the end of a war, you usually can’t reach that point unless you’ve already pretty much defeated the enemy’s armies in the field.  During the US Civil War, Richmond eventually fell and the Confederate government scattered, both events occurring shortly before the end of the war…but it took four years of hard slogging for the Union to achieve those two results, and by that point the Confederacy was at the end of its tether militarily and economically.  And those two results aren’t generally regarded as the end-point of the war; the surrenders of the main remaining Confederate forces in the field, notably the armies of Lee and Johnston, were arguably more decisive.

  • '17 '16

    The correlation isn’t correct, but the fact that Moscow was critically important on multiple levels is… 1812 and 1941 are very different years with very different circumstances, and cannot be compared equally.  Napoleon made a straight drive for Moscow… he didn’t invade all of Russia, he didn’t even really bother holding anything other than the immediate vicinity around his army… when he finally did reach Moscow… nobody was there… they all packed up and left, including the Tsar of Russia.  Napoleon occupied a few buildings, didn’t hold any part of Russia, beyond a toehold on a supply line (that was usually broken) and didn’t capture the Tsar.  This just is NOTHING like the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941.  Germany invaded with millions across a very wide front from the Baltic to the Black Sea, and it was an invasion to sieze, destroy and hold territory.  Entire armies were annihilated, cities across all of Russia were being captured, the Germans had a pretty solid control of what they were seizing (certainly in comparison with Napoleon), and Moscow was not going to be an empty trophy if captured… it was more than just a symbolic seat of power, it was the most important rail hub, it was an important industrial and communications center, it had stocks of food and munitions and supplies for the Russians, and, as previously mentioned, Stalin was there… and it is my firm belief, that he would not have fled.  When Moscow was under fire and looked doomed, and Stalin was begged to leave for safety, he had the same attitude Hitler did about Berlin and refused to leave… I don’t think Stalin would have left if the Germans had arrived earlier and with a better chance to capture the city… in that case, Stalin most likely would have been captured or killed, and the Soviet Union was very much STALIN’S RUSSIA… as much as the Third Reich was HITLER’s GERMANY.

    Moscow was not the only objective of Barbarossa… it was not going to be taken in a vacuum like Napoleon did to Tsarist Russia in 1812… The Soviet Union was being dismembered by Nazi Germany… they were encircling and destroying entire armies, seizing vast swathes of land and capturing city after city from the Baltic to the Black Sea, and Moscow would have been the final piece of the jigsaw puzzle, with Stalin likely to go down with the city… this is an entirely different scenario than Napoleon, and they simply cannot be compared in the same light.


  • When I talk about the King in chess, I don’t necessary talk about a person, but rather an abstract decisive issue that will make or brake a specific nations ability to survive. In German its named a Schwerpunkt, this strategically important point that the King in chess is supposed to represent. Lets call it a weakness, and if you successfully target this weakness, then that nation will die. In some cases this will be a dictator like Hitler or Stalin, or a king or other authorian ruler. Like when Alexander the Great died, the day after all of his vast empire vanished. In a democracy things are a bit different, like when Roosevelt died in 1945, USA was not knocked out of the war, they just replaced him with Truman. Now who could replace Hitler or Stalin ? I guess that if Churchill died or London got captured, then the Brits would keep on fighting, maybe from a government in exile in Canada and with some other guy as a new leader. In a Dictatorship the Leader is the weak spot, but in a Democracy the opinion is the weak spot. As in the Vietnam war, USA was military supreme in the battlefield, but still lost the war because the commies was able to target the US domestic opinion and create resistance against the war. Other weak spots can be industry, production, lack of oil, food or supply, convoy routes over the sea, international trade and 100 other things. Even the army or navy can be a weak point, if out of supply or with poor leaders.

    So back to my statement. I stress that in this case, Stalin was Russias weak point that Hitler had to hit if he wanted to win the war. As others have already said, to conquer Leningrad, Stalingrad, Murmansk or Siberia would not matter, that would be like killing a lot of cheap prawns in chess. A lot of fun but don’t make a victory. But Hitler failed to recognize this. Hitlers aim, or national objective if you want, that he published with his book Mein Kampf in 1920, and won the 1933 election on, was to colonize the Eastern Europe to the Ural mountains, and simoultanesly ethnical cleanse about 30 million of the local people living there, making living space for the Ubermensch farmers. And this is basically why Hitler lost the Eastern Front, and in the end the war. Now, if Hitler had been cunning, skilled and smart, he would have gone directly for Moscow, with full strength and all resources, captured Moscow, jailed Stalin and demobilized the Red Army. Now Germany would have won the war, and with less then a half million germans as casualties, no cities in ruins, dominated all of Europe, and then Hitler could have started to kill Jews and Slaves and probably succeeded, much in the same way that Stalin succeeded in killing 30 million of his own population during the Great Terror in the 1930 ies. Its a lot easier to kill people when they are not armed and shooting back. Luckily to my family and country, Hitler was narrow minded and stubborn.

    The Napoleon campaign 1812 was another kind of war, since Napoleons national objective was to win honor in the battlefield by chasing and beating the Russian Army. If Napoleon had wanted to conquer and govern Russia he could just have invaded the capitol, St. Petersburg, that was almost adjacent to his staging point, which would give him short supply lines, and the city was light defended too since the Tsar had his army around Moscow.

    King Karl XII campaign in 1700 was different too, since his objective was to capture Tsar Peter I and steal his money, so he followed him to an ambush outside Poltava.


  • Leningrad first should be taken, only to shorten the front and allow Finnish forces ( and German) to further reach Archangel and cut about 25% of lend lease shipments. Moscow is obviously the #1 target, but taking Leningrad and shortening the front would allow forces to bear from the northern flank and cut rail lines, which Moscow is the main hub for all areas. Stalingrad offers very little prospects for any military value w/o Moscow being taken. You might say Germany poked her head too far into protected Soviet support lines ( not much different than Kursk) and her offense got bogged down.

  • '17 '16

    I think most of us are in agreement here that Moscow was a very important target, both militarily and politically, and should have been more of a focus of Nazi Germany than dabbing around the northern and southern fronts… which while important for not making a linear drive to Moscow without securing the flanks, doesn’t hold as much importance as Moscow itself.  We may all have slightly different opinions on what makes Moscow the important target and why it failed, but in the end, back to the original point of this thread, it would seem most of us agree that Moscow was indeed very important, and aiming only for Leningrad and Stalingrad/Caucasus, would have been a mistake.

  • '23 '22 '21 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    Fair enough! Thanks, everyone, for your expert analysis.


  • @Imperious:

    Leningrad first should be taken, only to shorten the front and allow Finnish forces ( and German) to further reach Archangel and cut about 25% of lend lease shipments. Moscow is obviously the #1 target, but taking Leningrad and shortening the front would allow forces to bear from the northern flank and cut rail lines, which Moscow is the main hub for all areas. Stalingrad offers very little prospects for any military value w/o Moscow being taken. You might say Germany poked her head too far into protected Soviet support lines ( not much different than Kursk) and her offense got bogged down.

    Army Group North would need more infantry divisions to seriously take Leningrad. The 4th Panzer Army would have been better used in Army Group South; replacing the terrain of lakes and swamps with the wide open wheat fields of the Ukraine. Germany could have pulled twenty divisions from the West in a quest to take Leningrad.


  • Very good thread. Thanks to everyone who took the time to create well thought-out contributions. Before getting into my own recommendations, I think it’s important to review the background.

    The Soviet Union was not expecting a German invasion. Therefore, the Soviet military was in a purely offensive posture. Also, Germany was more ready for war than Soviet military planners had realized. This created a window of opportunity, during which Germany was able to achieve a 10:1 exchange ratio against Soviet soldiers. (10 Soviets killed or captured for every German.) However, that situation didn’t last forever: the Soviets eventually got their act together, after which the exchange ratio declined to 3:1. At Stalingrad, the Soviets achieved nearly a 1:1 exchange ratio against the Germans. However, there were a number of times when General von Manstein achieved a much better than 3:1 ratio against the Soviets, well after Barbarossa had ended. For example, in the Third Battle of Kharkov (fought in the aftermath of Germany’s defeat at Stalingrad), von Manstein and the Germans achieved a 10:1 exchange ratio. The Soviet Union had a prewar population of 169 million, compared to just 69 million for prewar Germany. The Soviets could afford many more losses than could the Germans.

    Any operation against the Soviet Union necessarily had two phases. During phase 1 (quick gains), Germany’s main objective should have been to advance as quickly as possible wherever possible, while capturing or destroying as much Soviet strength as possible. Phase 2 begins once the quick, easy gains end. Phase 2 would be slower and more deliberative than phase 1.

    The gains Germany could make during phase 1 were limited not just by the Soviet military, but also by Germany’s supply situation. Germany was a coal-rich, oil-poor nation. Romanian oil production helped offset that, as did Germany’s synthetic oil facilities. But ideally from an oil conservation perspective, Germany’s soldiers would be supplied via coal-powered trains, and horses carrying food from train drop off sites to the soldiers in the field. However, the Soviet rail network was far more limited than Germany’s, the Soviets used a different rail gauge than the Germans, and Stalin had ordered Soviet rail lines destroyed as part of his scorched earth policy. The Wehrmacht was therefore far more dependent on petroleum than it would liked to have been. Germany had only enough petroleum for 2 - 3 months of active operations, after which its operational tempo would slow due to lack of oil. Lack of oil also implied an inability to deliver to German soldiers the things they needed: ammunition, food, medical supplies, and winter uniforms.

    I agree with the OP that the Caucasus oilfields were of absolutely vital importance to both Germany and to the Soviet Union. However, Germany’s reach during Barbarossa was shorter than Germans would have liked. (Due to lack of oil.) The closer any given objective was to the front, the easier it would be for Germany to take. The Caucasus oilfields were considerably farther from Germany’s “starting line” than were any of the objectives it actually took during Barbarossa. The conquest of those oilfields would have fundamentally altered both the German and Soviet war efforts. But the capture of those oilfields was not an achievable goal for 1941.

    Hitler had initially chosen to de-emphasize Moscow as an objective, preferring instead to focus on territory in the southern portion of the Soviet Union. That southern advance proved fruitful, and resulted in the capture of large numbers of Soviet soldiers. It did not, however, prove decisive. Hitler later changed his mind, and decided to go after Moscow. In an operation such as this, it is typically better to commit to one objective, than it is to vacillate between two different (individually tempting) options. Moscow almost certainly could have been taken, had taking it been a central focus from day one.

    I’m skeptical of claims that the capture of Moscow would have resulted in the capture or death of Stalin. Yes, Stalin had remained in the city after the government had been evacuated. But I think the theory there was that it was easier to quietly evacuate one man than a whole government. My understanding is that there was a contingency plan to evacuate Stalin from Moscow if the situation had required it. Had Stalin been killed while trying to evacuate, that obviously would have been a tremendous bonus for the Germans. But the chance of that happening was probably well under 50% even if the city fell, so they would have been rather foolish to rely on it.

    However, the capture of Moscow would have deprived the Soviet Union of a major source of industry and of population. It would also have been deprived of its most vital rail network hub; making it extremely difficult for the Soviets to concentrate their soldiers in preparation for an offensive. From a military and industrial perspective, Moscow was the single most valuable target Germany could have taken in 1941, even assuming Stalin escaped. There was also a good opportunity to have taken it in '41–an opportunity which would no longer exist in '42. Germany had also wasted an opportunity to take Leningrad in '41. Once that opportunity slipped away, Leningrad became much better-defended.

    Germany needed to have come away from phase 1 owning Moscow, Leningrad, the Ukraine, and a lot of other territory in the western Soviet Union. With that territory in hand, it would then have been well positioned to launch a good summer offensive in 1942.

  • '17 '16

    @KurtGodel7:

    I’m skeptical of claims that the capture of Moscow would have resulted in the capture or death of Stalin. Yes, Stalin had remained in the city after the government had been evacuated. But I think the theory there was that it was easier to quietly evacuate one man than a whole government. My understanding is that there was a contingency plan to evacuate Stalin from Moscow if the situation had required it. Had Stalin been killed while trying to evacuate, that obviously would have been a tremendous bonus for the Germans. But the chance of that happening was probably well under 50% even if the city fell, so they would have been rather foolish to rely on it.

    Yes, there were also contingency plans to evacuate Hitler from Berlin if the situation had required it… oddly enough, neither Hitler nor Stalin acted on either contingency plan when the situation required it.  The Soviet government LEFT MOSCOW… except that one guy named Stalin… You see, there’s something Hitler and Stalin both shared, besides messed up families… they were both megalomaniacs who were stubborn and refused to listen to the advice of anyone around them… they both had bunker mentalities and neither had any intention of leaving their capitals… both of them just KNEW that their capitals would not fall, and if they did, well then they didn’t deserve the greatness that was Hitler or Stalin.

    Neither Stalin nor Hitler were going anywhere… Stalin ignored his contingency plan… Hitler did too… one city was a little better defended than the other, so one survived while the other did not… but if you think for one moment either megalomaniac was going to abandon his capital after everyone else and left and begged him to come too, you’re crazy for thinking they would.


  • @Wolfshanze:

    @KurtGodel7:

    I’m skeptical of claims that the capture of Moscow would have resulted in the capture or death of Stalin. Yes, Stalin had remained in the city after the government had been evacuated. But I think the theory there was that it was easier to quietly evacuate one man than a whole government. My understanding is that there was a contingency plan to evacuate Stalin from Moscow if the situation had required it. Had Stalin been killed while trying to evacuate, that obviously would have been a tremendous bonus for the Germans. But the chance of that happening was probably well under 50% even if the city fell, so they would have been rather foolish to rely on it.

    Yes, there were also contingency plans to evacuate Hitler from Berlin if the situation had required it… oddly enough, neither Hitler nor Stalin acted on either contingency plan when the situation required it.  The Soviet government LEFT MOSCOW… except that one guy named Stalin… You see, there’s something Hitler and Stalin both shared, besides messed up families… they were both megalomaniacs who were stubborn and refused to listen to the advice of anyone around them… they both had bunker mentalities and neither had any intention of leaving their capitals… both of them just KNEW that their capitals would not fall, and if they did, well then they didn’t deserve the greatness that was Hitler or Stalin.

    Neither Stalin nor Hitler were going anywhere… Stalin ignored his contingency plan… Hitler did too… one city was a little better defended than the other, so one survived while the other did not… but if you think for one moment either megalomaniac was going to abandon his capital after everyone else and left and begged him to come too, you’re crazy for thinking they would.

    I would not say he ignored it. I think the planned on staying as long as he thought it would help. He could see that him staying would increase the moral of the troops. He would stay as long as that benefit was greater than the possible risks of him losing his life. You could argue that if he left, the chance of moscow falling would increase and the chance of russia losing the war would increase. What would his survival odds be then?

    If he waited until the germans where close to kremlin, he could be fairly safely behind the front lines and drive away by car… He could be evacuate by car on 5  minutes notice, the government coudn’t.  If USSR loses stalin but the government survives, the war is not lost, if they lose the beurocrats, the archives, gold reserves and reccords, the war is lost even if stalin survives.

    There is a youtubevideo that touches upon the plans and the strategic misstakes. I agree alot with the guy, it is very relevant to this thread

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Clz27nghIg


  • @Kreuzfeld:

    I would not say he ignored it. I think the planned on staying as long as he thought it would help. He could see that him staying would increase the moral of the troops. He would stay as long as that benefit was greater than the possible risks of him losing his life. You could argue that if he left, the chance of moscow falling would increase and the chance of russia losing the war would increase. What would his survival odds be then?

    If he waited until the germans where close to kremlin, he could be fairly safely behind the front lines and drive away by car… He could be evacuate by car on 5  minutes notice, the government coudn’t.  If USSR loses stalin but the government survives, the war is not lost, if they lose the beurocrats, the archives, gold reserves and reccords, the war is lost even if stalin survives.

    The 1970s BBC TV series The World at War includes an interview with a Russian general who says that, during the German advance towards Moscow, the morale of the Red Army was boosted enormously when Stalin – whose initial reaction to Barbarossa was to go into seclusion, and who was apparently worried for a while that he might be the target of a coup d’etat – appeared in public somewhere in Moscow (at Red Square, as I recall) and gave a rousing speech to the troops.  According to the general, the soldiers were encouraged and impressed (perhaps because they had doubts beforehand) by the fact that Stalin was there in the capital, that he had not run away, and that he had retained his nerve.  It’s a believable reaction because soldiers, regardless of their nationality or of the political system by which they are governed, are greatly influenced (for good or bad) by the way in which they perceive their leadership, and by the signals that their leaders send out about how the leaders themselves view a war situation.  A case in point: on the night before the Royal Navy caught up with the Bismarck and sank her, Admiral Lutjens sent a radio signal to his superiors ashore saying, if I remember correctly, “Ship unmaneuvrable.  We fight to the last shell.  Long live the Fuehrer.”  News of this message promptly ran through the ship’s company, and it had the effect of a huge wet blanket being thrown over the crewmembers, who basically interpreted it to mean “We’re doomed.”  Captain Lindemann tried to restore morale by getting on the ship’s intercom and giving the crew a more optimistic appraisal of the situation (pointing out, among other things, that the ships’ main and secondary armaments were completely intact), but the damage had already been done.

    So getting back to Stalin, I can see that the optimal strategy for him (the one he appears to have taken) was to stay in the capital – and to make a public show of the fact that he was still in the capital – for as long as possible in order to bolster morale, while at the same time quietly keeping a quick escape route open for use at the last minute in the eventuality that Moscow was about to fall.  Conversely, the worst option would have been for him to decamp while the Germans were still far away from Moscow, since this would have sent a pretty clear signal to the troops (and the civilian population) that he was convinced that the capital would fall.  This signal would actually have increased the chances that Moscow would fall, since it would have demoralized its defenders.


  • Don’t forget, unlike France or Norway surrender was no survivable option for the Russian population. Hitler made very clear quite early that he considered them “subhuman” and GeStaPo and SS did their deadly job in notorious german thouroughness in Poland, Belarus and Ukraine. So I’m not sure if taking the capital would have ended the war in Russia - perhaps the regular war, but not the need for massive amount of troops there. I’m pretty sure the long term need and lack of administrational staff and police for this vast area with millions of deads causing disobeyance and riots would have been more than a pain in the a… for the Reich.
    The Nazi dictature based on nationalism including/featuring hatred towards Jews and Slaws, denunciation and a powerful police - that wouldn’t have worked there. But on second thought, they might have been able to get some russians to help and give some incentives like surviving a month longer… It would have been hell on earth.

    In the end Hitler had not enough of his beloved true blood Germans to realize his megalomaniac ideas - you don’t make many friends by hating them constitutionally.


  • @Wicked:

    Don’t forget, unlike France or Norway surrender was no survivable option for the Russian population. Hitler made very clear quite early that he considered them “subhuman” and GeStaPo and SS did their deadly job in notorious german thouroughness in Poland, Belarus and Ukraine. So I’m not sure if taking the capital would have ended the war in Russia - perhaps the regular war, but not the need for massive amount of troops there. I’m pretty sure the long term need and lack of administrational staff and police for this vast area with millions of deads causing disobeyance and riots would have been more than a pain in the a… for the Reich.
    The Nazi dictature based on nationalism including/featuring hatred towards Jews and Slaws, denunciation and a powerful police - that wouldn’t have worked there. But on second thought, they might have been able to get some russians to help and give some incentives like surviving a month longer… It would have been hell on earth.

    In the end Hitler had not enough of his beloved true blood Germans to realize his megalomaniac ideas - you don’t make many friends by hating them constitutionally.

    An important part of German planning for the postwar period included the intention of forcibly relocating 30 - 50 million Poles eastward, to make room for German expansion. Had the Allied food blockade still been in effect, the deaths of large numbers of Poles along the way would have been considered an acceptable way of relieving pressure on Germany’s food supply; thereby preventing the starvation of an equal number of non-Poles.

    During the war, the combination of the Allied food blockade and Stalin’s scorched earth tactics made it impossible for Germany to feed all the people within the lands it had conquered from the Soviet Union. The physical impossibility of Germany feeding those people proved a boon for Soviet propagandists; who took advantage of the situation by claiming that Germany planned to starve or kill all the people of the conquered Soviet Union. Soviet propagandists were not normally considered a highly reliable source of information. In this instance, however, the fact that large numbers of people in German-occupied portions of the Soviet Union were actually starving seemed to lend a hint of credibility to these claims.

    As the war in Europe became increasingly less favorable for Germany, large numbers of Soviet civilians fled west into Germany. The westward flight of many Soviet civilians demonstrates that not all Soviet citizens believed Soviet wartime propaganda.

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