How to handle the Italian fleet R1?

[Tolstoj]

Do you attack the Italian fleet in R1? If so, how many ships/aircraft do you use?

In other words: what is the best way to attack Italy in R1 in your opinion?

[oysteilo]

Without a bid:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QGow98LUYl4
Watch YG’s strategy video. Doesn’t get better than this

[cyanight]

To attack the fleet in sz 97 with Battleship, Cruiser and 3 fighters defending - 6hp : 19 power

UK attacks with Cruiser, Destroyer, Carrier, Tactical, 2 Fighters, Bomber - 8hp : 19 Power

This will give you 80%. You could send another fighter from London for 94% - 9hp : 23 Power

Adding a sub bid without the extra fighter you have 92% - 9hp : 21 Power

If this attack fails it really sets the pace for Axis in the game IMO.

[oysteilo]

@cyanight:

To attack the fleet in sz 97 with Battleship, Cruiser and 3 fighters defending - 6hp : 19 power

UK attacks with Cruiser, Destroyer, Carrier, Tactical, 2 Fighters, Bomber - 8hp : 19 Power

This will give you 80%. You could send another fighter from London for 94% - 9hp : 23 Power

Adding a sub bid without the extra fighter you have 92% - 9hp : 21 Power

If this attack fails it really sets the pace for Axis in the game IMO.

TOTALLY.  80%  is not good enough for this battle, you need the sub, the extra fighter or some other variety. Otherwise,  don’t do the raid

[oysteilo]

IMHO no other single unit is capable of changing the game more than the Italian battleship (from a failed raid)

[Nippon-koku]

I think a lot of it depends on what Germany does on its first turn.  For example, one of the players in my group leaves the fleet in 110 alone, instead preferring to put 2 subs on the DD and transport in 106, and 2 subs on the C in 91.  In that case I’m a big fan of a move I say Ike use: hit the Italian DD and transport off of Malta with planes, merge the UK fleets from 110 and 98 into 92, except keep the DD from 98 in 94 to block the Italians from attacking the fleet.

Now the UK has a nice little fleet parked off of Gibraltar, which cannot be touched by the Italians.  By the time Germany goes, France will have added a C to the fleet, essentially adding a fodder ship. Even if you assume Germany kept both subs in 91, they still cannot realistically attack that fleet because odds are they only have two bombers that can reach.

Long way of saying it’s not really possible to know what to do with the Italian ships unless you see what Germany did first.

[WILD BILL]

Wow Nippon-koku I don’t think I remember a game where the Germans left the sz110 fleet alive.

[Karl7]

Losing 97 is a disaster for the Allies because it usually means UK lost the 20ish bid without gaining anything for the allies and setting up Italy to take Cairo R1.

It throws the game IMO.  UK has to win to keep the Allies in the game, so max pressure if justified IMO.

One can not attack 97 and instead try to knock out Italian land units in Africa, but that is a lot more tricky given Italy can just move up to Alx w/German air support.

[Nippon-koku]

@WILD:

Wow Nippon-koku I don’t think I remember a game where the Germans left the sz110 fleet alive.

I think it’s weird too.  I never understand the move

[WILD BILL]

@Nippon-koku:

@WILD:

Wow Nippon-koku I don’t think I remember a game where the Germans left the sz110 fleet alive.

I think it’s weird too.  I never understand the move

I see the Germans use their BB to hit and run sz111 and the damaged Brit BB survives, but never sz110 unless the Germans get diced really really bad, but not to hit it at all just leaves too much power for the allies in the Atlantic.

[cyanight]

@Nippon-koku:

@WILD:

Wow Nippon-koku I don’t think I remember a game where the Germans left the sz110 fleet alive.

I think it’s weird too.  I never understand the move

I have seen it successful. When Germany takes out 106, 109 and 111, it makes it very easy for Germany to dominate the Atlantic with subs.  Removing all the DD’s makes gives the subs free reign. Then there is the convoy damage done to UK for the first 2-4 turns or more.

[Nippon-koku]

@cyanight:

@Nippon-koku:

@WILD:

Wow Nippon-koku I don’t think I remember a game where the Germans left the sz110 fleet alive.

I think it’s weird too.�  I never understand the move

I have seen it successful. When Germany takes out 106, 109 and 111, it makes it very easy for Germany to dominate the Atlantic with subs.  Removing all the DD’s makes gives the subs free reign. Then there is the convoy damage done to UK for the first 2-4 turns or more.

That’s a move I like to do as Germany.  Gives them some solid convoy’s early on and a G1 buy of 5 subs can cause some panic in the Atlantic

[WILD BILL]

@ShadowHAwk:

But 109 ( next to the UK ) will or can have 4 scrambled fighters there so no way your subs survive. And what prevents the UK from buying a few destroyers?

Though adding 5 subs on round 1 could be painfull for the UK for a few rounds.

He said they forgo attacking sz110, so I imagine they send quite a few air units into sz109 so the UK doesn’t scramble so the sub(s) would survive. I guess you could go balls to the wall on sz109 with just the two subs and try to get a hit on the first round, but that kinda defeats the purpose of convoying because your subs die when he scrambles LOL.

Seems like a lot to kill a DD and tpt (and leave the BB and 2 cruisers alive), but I can see the benefit of convoying them G1 and possibly G2. The UK could be hard pressed to build a dd UK1 because you prob still have a sub or two left in both sz109 & 106, and there is the threat of Sea Lion (UK1 pretty standard build of 6 inf+ftr). The UK would have some naval assets from sz110 though so they could get ballsy and go fleet to challenge the Germans (who don’t like to lose air units early on) :?

[SubmersedElk]

Why would anyone NOT do the Taranto raid? What’s the alternative benefit from using that fleet elsewhere that can compensate for leaving Italy with opportunities to contest Africa and the ME?

[RiceAndChine]

@Elk:
Even though I agree with you on the raid being incredibly strong, I wish for some alternative, so the fleets are more than just a way to ensure, you can’t plan the med too much. Every game starts with this raid and mostly the dicee decide how it’s going to turn out. I desperately hope for a viable alternative, because I don’t like linear “decisions”

[Nippon-koku]

@SubmersedElk:

Why would anyone NOT do the Taranto raid? What’s the alternative benefit from using that fleet elsewhere that can compensate for leaving Italy with opportunities to contest Africa and the ME?

I’ve seen plenty of success without the raid.  It gives up a lot of UK pieces to take Italy pieces, an exchange I don’t love as the UK player.

[MarshmallowofWar]

A first turn German naval build would be a strong indicator to the UK to not do a Taranto raid, since to make it a strong win possibility (80% is not strong), you need to pull both fighters from the UK for the raid. Pulling both those fighters would make Sea Lion much cheaper for Germany.

Marsh

[creeping-deth87]

As Italy I would always scramble the fighters for the Taranto raid. Yes, you could save them for a counterattack, but your fighters give you better odds to hit when they’re on the defense and you can’t use the German fighter on the counter anyway. The way I see it, with the scramble you’re probably knocking out most of the British units and have a good chance of knocking out some UK air (something you won’t be able to do on the counterattack because the planes usually land in Malta). Also as mentioned, it’s freaking awesome when you win on the defense. I’ve actually seen Taranto fail more often than succeed, it’s become increasingly rare in my group.

[ghr2]

@SubmersedElk:

Why would anyone NOT do the Taranto raid? What’s the alternative benefit from using that fleet elsewhere that can compensate for leaving Italy with opportunities to contest Africa and the ME?

Preserves your fleet for later use, makes yourself a constant threat to italy.  Also helps to deal with Sealion Threat and gives you a better attack on tobruk.

[Tolstoj]

Why should Italy scramble and lose 2 fighters and a German one, when in a counter attack Germany should lose only one fighter???