Did you read that post in which I introduced this?
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36518.msg1629277#msg1629277
Submarine
A2 first strike
D1 first strike
Cost 5
M2-3,
Hit 1
taken as last casualty amongst warships, just before TP.
As playable on Triple A, totally and easily player enforced.
Another way to say this:
About Submarines, why not making them a more elusive and independent unit while forbidding them to serve as cannon fodder for bigger warships?
@Imperious:
Submarines should never be cannon fodder. In fact, Submarines should only participate in one round of combat and not engage in multi-surface combat actions. Their was never any major naval actions where submarines were used in a major role in such combat. They are basically sinkers of commerce ships. They participated as advance screening for fleet movements to locate and possibly sink a few ships that were passing through the area, but a sub travels at 7 knots underwater and a cruiser is at 34 knots and a battleship is 25-32 knots. That’s why the other chap in an earlier thread bought those destroyers and stopped buying battleships. (…)
It is possible by simply add a special casualty rule for Subs : “Subs can only be picked as casualty when their is no more surface warships available.”
And for increasing their survivability, it depends on the Destroyers blocking capacity.
If anything possible to do on that in Triple A.
But Subs may still be very ellusive if planes need DDs to attack/defend against Sub.
This rule can be kept or not according to play-tests, if Triple A allows to try both ways.
(I hope Barney’s right.)
Here is the origins of my idea, coming from AA50 rulebook before Errata.
About Aircrafts, why not let them hits any units, including Subs? As it was historically the case and in many previous games before A&A 50 Anniversary.
You can read the interesting answers of Krieghund about the evolution of this rule on Aircrafts and Subs here:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=14344.msg1264872#msg1264872
Here is the most interesting point IMO:
@Krieghund:
@Baron:
So is there any version of OOB Subs rules which allow Submerge during First Strike and let planes be able to hit directly subs without DD, the sole condition is that defending sub choose not to submerge first (in such situation, fighter A3 or StB A4 will be considered as any single indestructible attacking Cruiser A3 or Battleship A4, because Sub cannot hit air units.)?
No.
@Baron:
In this condition DD still get a function because all freaking subs can always submerge before receiving any hits.
If all Subs rules after Revised always included both Submerge during First Strike and planes need DD to hit subs,
Does the simpler sub rule Submerge on First Strike phase with Air can hit subs without DD (if subs choose not to submerge) was ever play-tested?
Because, according to the uncorrected AA50 Rulebook,
Sub rule was easily understand that way (give hints to think about it),
subs (submerging before reg combat) becomes far less vulnerable than in Revised rules (submerging after regular combat),
and this rule is simpler: “simplifying unit interaction”.
Yes, it would make subs less fragile, but the thing that it would not do is keep subs from being used as fodder in fleet battles. With subs being immune to air units without a destroyer, it’s dangerous to pad a fleet with subs, since all an attacker needs to do is go in without a destroyer in order to force all of his/her air unit hits to bypass the subs and hit the more expensive units. This makes destroyers the better choice for fleet protection, as it should be.
A summary of the reasons behind OOB Subs and planes rules by Krieghund:
@Krieghund:
Planes were very effective sub killers in reality. However, reality suffers a bit when translated into an abstract board game. Sometimes the designers have to “fudge” one aspect of a reality-based game in order to deal with the limitations of another aspect of it. Hopefully, in the end, the two balance each other out to create a whole that abstractly mirrors reality even though the individual parts may not. The interaction between subs, destroyers and planes is a perfect example of this.
The range of air units and the size of the oceans in the game make it very easy for air units to find and eliminate subs, if air units are capable of hitting them on their own. This gives subs no place to hide and makes them “sitting ducks” for air attacks, as was demonstrated in the Revised edition. This simply doesn’t reflect the realities of anti-submarine warfare as it occured in World War II, at least until long-range aircraft were developed later in the war. Until that time, subs were very safe in the middle areas of the oceans, as planes didn’t have the range to hunt them effectively there. Most were sunk only when they were caught in the act of raiding shipping.
Adding the rule that destroyers are required as “spotters” for air attacks against subs represents the concerted effort needed to hunt and attack subs hiding out between raids. This gives subs more longevity and makes them more the fearsome foes that they actually were in the early to middle days of the war.
It also promotes the purchase and maintenance of more well-rounded fleets, as destroyers are necessary to guard against the threat of subs. This reflects the reality that subs were a constant threat to military shipping as well, and that no convoy would travel without destroyer escorts because of that threat. At the same time, it keeps them from being used as cheap “cannon fodder” in naval battles, as they were most often not used extensively in fleet operations, but rather as harrassing hunters where their unique properties were best utilized.
From an economic standpoint, the necessity of buying destroyers for protection against subs also reflects the economic losses sustained by raids against merchant shipping by submarines.
All of these points, taken together, allow the game to abstractly represent the economic and military threat posed by submarines in World War II. This makes subs a useful and strategic purchase in the game. I hope this sufficiently answers your concerns.
Still have same intents exposed in this post below. I just change the means to get ride of Sub fodder because of Triple A engine modification limitations.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36518.msg1555024#msg1555024
