• @Imperious:

    DD   Destroyer fleet of 10   ( i think the number is more like 30)
    CV   Carriers are about 5
    BB    Battleship fleet of 4-5

    So any changes to naval costs necessarily for realism?

    Wikipedia on Aircraft carrier “Many of the major battles in the Pacific involved aircraft carriers. Japan started the war with ten aircraft carriers, the largest and most modern carrier fleet in the world at that time. There were six American aircraft carriers at the beginning of the hostilities, although only 3 of them were operating in the Pacific.”

    I reckon the CV piece represents only 3. And BB representing 4-5 maybe too many?


  • Yes I really feel the BB should be 20 IPC and destroyers at 10 IPC.

    DESTROYERS
    Description: Small, fast warships that hunt submarines.

    (This is a revised rule for destroyers only, not a new unit)

    Cost: 10
    Attack: 2 (3 when an enemy submarine is present)
    Defense: 2 (3 when an enemy submarine is present)
    Move: 2 (3 when supported by a carrier)

    Special Abilities
    Supported by Carriers: When a destroyer move along with an aircraft carrier, the destroyer’s movement is increased to 3. This pairing is on a one-to-one basis. The destroyer and the aircraft carrier unit must leave from and end up in the same sea zone.

    Submarine Disruption: A destroyer cancels the special abilities of submarines. Enemy submarines cannot move freely through a sea zone containing your destroyer. If you have destroyers in combat involving enemy submarines, they attack and defend on a 3. Any casualties of enemy submarines can return fire. Also, enemy submarines cannot submerge while your destroyer is present.

    Shore Bombardment: In an amphibious assault, your destroyers may like battleships make a support shot on amphibious assaults on a 2. Each destroyer fires once during the Conduct Opening Fire step against enemy land units in the territory being attacked (the enemy units do not fire back). A destroyer cannot conduct shore bombardment if it was involved in a sea combat prior the amphibious assault.

    Battleships
    Description: Powerful and nearly indestructible monarchs of the sea.

    (This is a revised rule for battleships only, not a new unit)

    Cost: 20
    Attack: 4
    Defense: 4
    Move: 2

    Special Abilities: All attacks on other naval ships are conducted with preemptive salvos to represent longer-range gunnery. Every combat round they attack in a similar manner. Otherwise they conduct themselves the same as LHTR. These ships take two hits to sink


  • @Imperious:

    Attack: 2 (3 when an enemy submarine is present)
    Defense: 2 (3 when an enemy submarine is present)

    I haven’t heard reply for you guys yet I as I’ve mentioned earlier it is flawed to just increase attack/defense when enemy submarine is presented.
    Imagine when 3 DD attack 3 DD + 1 SS.

    The cancelling ability of DDs should not be 100%. We need all that sub detection stuff.

    Like how sub to sub attack is weird. Similar here I think we need to model depth charge rather than simply increase attack.

    –> When a DD sucessfully detects one or more SS, besides victims of SS gets to return fire, the DD roll another dice for depth charge, hitting on 2. This is not opening fire.

    Similar to AA fire, you get to a point of detecting saturation in the SZ. This is because sub detect is not like AA fire…you use sonar/radar not ammunition. There is essentially “no limit” to number of SS a DD can detect, the limit is in no. of SS it was attack.
    So Instead of per DD gets to detect x no. of SS, probably of each SS being detected depends on no. of DDs in the SZ.

    –> Roll a dice for each enemy SS. For <4 friendly DDs detections are on 2. For 4+ friendly DDs detections are on 4.


  • Yes your correct we have to save that for phase two. we can leave out everything about those units pertaining to ASW tactics… but the general idea under phase one was some cheaper naval units. 20 BB 10 DD.


  • Yep phase 2 those are related to.

    So why is it 20 and 10 for BBs and DDs anyway?


  • OK its a balancing issue…

    1. a battleship with 4/4 taking two hits for 20 IPC

    or

    1. 2 destroyers at 2/2 taking one hit each at 10 IPC

    … so if you spend 20 IPC and buy DD you get 2 rolls of two vs. one roll of 4 for the same money… which is basically even… however in the old system DD is 12 and BB is 24… now both move down the scale making them more desirable… Subs at 8 along with trannies at 8 looks correct, but we try to promote more naval buys this way and less subs… The cost difference of 12 DD and 8 SS is too great so people keep buying the SS ( subs). IN the real war subs actually COST more than those tin can destroyers…

    1. the BB gets the preemtive strike because in the war all larger caliber guns had much greater ranges than say subs or Destroyers… they could send a salvo into the side of another ship sinking it before it even got in range to fire its own guns  ( except another BB).  well thats the general idea…plus we want to give people back some value from a 20 IPC purchase… we dont want the BB to have no value or special ability… as you know the DD is the primary ASW weapon against subs, while the cruiser will be the primary AA defense against air attacks ( protection to carriers) … now the BB had to have some “value” to make it a competable buy.

  • I agree! These changes make the naval unit purchase more balanced.


  • What about the realism aspect?
    Should BB cost twice as much as DD?

    I am wondering if BB should in fact cost more…seeing so few were produced…what was it again? 700 vs. 8?


  • It’s not like BBs at twcie the price of a DD is even money. The destroyers would be worth more than half a BB (although priced half) and the BBs should still never be purchased unless you are adding the purchase to a huge fleet and are not expecting the enemy to usually get more than 1 hit (very rarely will this hapen).


  • In pure BB vs. DD its now equal I think. DD has been reduced to attack of 2.

    enemy submarines cannot submerge while your destroyer is present.

    I proposed earlier that destroyer advantage vs. submarine can be modelled by depth charge. If the submerged submarine is detected destroyer may throw depth charge at it!


  • now they can’t submerge? I can see the argument for saying that DD can attack submerged subs, but I can’t see how a DD is stopping a sub from submerging.

    So are you going to have it that a DD can keep attacking a submerged sub forever without penalty?

    What exactly was wrong with the sub warfare as I had it? DDs can attack subs 1 round after they submerge. After that round, the sub has escaped combat.


  • Oh no that was just the baseline from LHTR/OOB.
    We haven’t gotten around to change it.
    We have to change it.
    It makes no sense to stop the submarine from submerging.

    Destroyer attack on submarine for once on submerging is ok.
    But I think it should be allowed to resurface again. Its hide and seek with submarine warfare. Not once encounter and be done for all.


  • I was under the impression that the sub sneaked in to attack the convoy. Sometimes an escort would find them before they did this, and other times only afterwards. Either way, once the sub was being chased by the escort, it was outta there! That was just my impression. Do you have any sources that say that subs kept attacking after they were detected and being chased down?


  • @theduke:

    Do you have any sources that say that subs kept attacking after they were detected and being chased down?

    Yeah! I watch this documentry show about u-boat attacking convoys.
    And there was some hide and sneak.
    I think it was like once they submerge they can turn off the engine and simply “disappear”.
    So its not so much a “being chased down”, you only get a short period of time to kill/chase.

    I think we shouldn’t focus on whether to allow submarines do this (something they can physically do) but to model detection and depth charge so player work with historic limits rather than arbitary limits. Players would then work like WWII generals for the most of the game.


  • Well, well, here we go. In my opinion a fully loaded AC is always the best buy, but it need to be complemented due to the enemies. If your enemy goes for navy, then buy subs, if your enemy goes for air then buy another fully loaded AC. The fighters on board the AC can replace the shore bombardment of BBs, more or less IMHO. If the enemy buy subs then I buy one DD, but just one. The reason for this is simply that a fully loaded AC is the best buy for defens, and subs is the best buy for attack. The shore bombardment is good, but two fighters would be almost as good for amphibious assaults. The hit and run engagements for BBs, were damaged BBs retreat and self repair, is good when one play against a bad opponent. A good player who buy according to my suggestions and stack the fleet to one sea zone, will have the odds to win big time! The best thing happens when the enemy goes for navy and you have bought a lot of subs and your opponent are pleased with his odds against your fleet. The very next thing you will do is go for Supersubmarines (ca 30 IPCs of investment) or just another 4-5 subs!

    No frankly, the BBs and DDs need some extra spice to make them desirable IMHO. I don’t know how to counter this problem, but I do have suggestions. Like those mentioned before. A 2/2/2 DD (8IPCs) would be dominant and brake them game, since it would be the best buy for both defens and attack. Why would someone buy a SS (submarine) when one can buy a DD for the same price, but the DD can defend against air. If your enemy buys a DD the opening fire for your SS would be lost, hence no benefit for buying any SS.  Another thing is that 3 DD (2/2/2) would be a much better buy then a BB, so the price for the BB need to go down, 20 IPCs (for reasons not disclosed right now).

    Well, there is still one Q to answer and a problem to solve. The problem is how the subs could be more desirable My first thought is to take a look att the rules for subs in A&A:E were subs were not susceptible to air attacks without destroyer presens. Another feature from A&A:E is the interdiction ability of subs. Since there are no convoy centers, my suggestion is a rule that would do (see “Convoy Raids” below). So now that we have found a possible solution to the problem, that would make the subs desirable irrespective of the improved DD and its submarine disruption ability. Ok great, but what about the Q; Will BBs and DDs be desirable at all? Well, they are still very much the same type of units but improved. It is now a tough choice between a DD in defens or fully loaded AC, and between BBs or DDs in attack se below:

    DD ( 360 IPCs)

    Att: 245 = 90
    Def: 2
    45 = 90
    Hits: 45

    AC + 2 Ftr (360 IPCs)

    Att: 101+203 = 70
    Def: 103+204 = 110
    Hits: 30

    BB / 20 IPCs (360 IPCs)

    Att: 184 =72
    Def: 18
    4 =72
    Hits: 36

    If DDs are not allowed for shore bombardment the BB will probably be the best choice as long as no subs are around.  An extra spice to the BBs would be an opening fire ability in conjunction with an inability to hit subs, meaning subs can never be hit by BBs. That is goody goody and the 24 IPC price for a BB would be acceptable. Well, it was just a thought! In defens ACs would still be the choice along with some cannon fodder, now not only SSs but DDs as well. But in defens, I would buy mostly DDs. DDs are simply the best balanced allround piece to buy and will therefore most likely be the mainstay in the fleets. More over, subs will now be important for special reasons like the transporters or more likely bombers, to “sink” IPCs from your enemies like bombers in SBRs! Ok, I think that’s it! The bottom line is no cruiser unit is needed. Belive it or not, the fewer pieces the better it gets, since the game is pretty messy as is ;-)

    Convoy Raids

    The U.K, U.S. and Japanese players are susceptible to supply line interdiction. This rule imply that enemy submarines may conduct an economic attack against the supply lines (sea zones) adjacent to any of these nations industrial complex to “sink” IPCs. On the U.K, U.S. and Japanese players collect income phase, the player must subtract 2 IPCs to the bank for each enemy submarine within 1 sea zone of an industrial complex contolled by respective nation. For each enemy submarine within 2 sea zones of an industrial complex, the player must subtract 1 IPC. Any submarine that became submerged during the subjected players turn’s conduct combat phase, does not cause any economic loss. Multiple submarines may affect a single industrial complex, but the maximum combined loss can be no more than the territory’s (containting the industrial complex) income value. An individual submarine may only affect one industrial complex during each turn, but can affect multiple industrial complexes each round (i.e. one industrial complex per player).


  • This is what I am looking at…

    Only DD, FTR, BO can attack SS and only when they are detected

    –>DD can roll one additional dice to throw depth charge at one detected SS

    –>Otherwise planes can attack detected SS in the new naval opening fire

    BB’s opening fire should only the long range batteries.
    –>BB has opening fire on naval units as well as first round anti-aircraft fire

    –>SS may resurface at a later combat cycle after submerging, while submerged it cannot be detected

    @B.:

    If the enemy buy subs then I buy one DD, but just one.

    I was looking at changing the detection system. Due to saturation of sonar/radar I reckon the probably of detecting a particular enemy SS depends on the number of friendly destroyers, and importantly not on the number of enemy submarines.
    Something like 1 DD then SS detected on a roll of 1…2 DDs then SS detected on a roll of 2…etc

    Either way we won’t let one DD automatically detect all SSs in a SZ like in OOB and the tactic of buying one DD won’t happen.

    Convoy Raids… On the U.K, U.S. and Japanese players collect income phase, the player must subtract 2 IPCs to the bank for each enemy submarine within 1 sea zone of an industrial complex contolled by respective nation. For each enemy submarine within 2 sea zones of an industrial complex, the player must subtract 1 IPC.

    This is pretty standard and is in several varients.

    I don’t it like though because of logics.
    Why are you forced to transport material (IPC) to a particular factory (IC)? And why are you forced to do so via sea?
    It creates strange situations.
    Like I am not even building units at that IC yet it suffered convoy raid.  :|
    Check the income thread for related ideas I proposed.


  • I think we need to make DD a 10 point unit rather than 8 or 12… so BB  is 20, the CA will be 15 and the destroyer is 10.


  • Its hard to say whehter those are good prices without considering what changes to put in.

    Does you buy my suggestions about SS DD BB etc?


  • still looking at them…


  • Yeah they are huge and bold changes.

Suggested Topics

  • 1
  • 20
  • 1
  • 1
  • 19
  • 15
  • 9
  • 221
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures

113

Online

17.4k

Users

40.0k

Topics

1.7m

Posts