Anti-Aircraft Guns and Heavy Artillery

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@Imperious:

yes thats fine but those stats were for a generic piece. American artillery was more mobile. If you want a nation specific list i can provide that.

No that is fine Impy. I dont like the idea of more units, but just want to make some optional rules that will clearly make the game better balanced and realistic. For the moment I am trying to work out some optional rules that will counter the problem with navy buys. More units like the cruiser unit did not work out in my opinion, due to the fact of the high cost for building up a navy!

My generic solution is better IMHO, the tech heavy artlillery!

[Imperious Leader]

Andersson-

I would hope that you of all people can truly appreciate that growing need to evolve the various problems pertinent with the “basic” rules template and would hope that you induce some small changes to how people play both 2nd and revised editions. But to remain true to the game from this evolutionary standard you would have a complete new set of rules that is not within the yoke of the original. That means new pieces, new ideas, new concepts. The bonds of the original rules template should offer two paths for the casual gamer. IN my case i offer something of a major departure from these rules which integrate many new ideas built along a core of historical accuracies, but do not encumber the player with the minutia of historical notes.I view your task to educate many people here with a dose of well written rules that make the game more playable and i see you dont want to take the larger step into a new departure as to alienate these masses who are still stuck with the LHTR mindset. But I took this step alone as it seems to push the envelop out of frustration with some basic ideas that were whitewashed in the game design to make this thing a “family game” .
    With that being said what im trying to do here is slowly introduce ideas that follow from this concept so a noticable shift will move these players into more substantive needs. As you may know Larry seems on the fence with the “advanced concept” but with many players gradually accepting and supporting a new evolution in the game, that will make that game possible and to that end i strive.

When you posted those numbers for carriers, cruisers and destroyers did you use my stats for values and costs?

How was your calculation done? dice roller program?

I want to understand your math, because some of these values come directly from my own games and i am sure they are perfect from a cost point basis and in practical playtesting. I do have many additional units as well, but my system that formed those values is basically from the same exercise.

[Biofury]

@Imperious:

attack 4
defence 2
move 1
cost 8

Would you allow these siege artillery pieces to counter-attack during a battleships offshore bombardment right before the amphibious assault? And if you did what value would you make the hit, A “1” like the AA-guns or even with the battleship using the guns natural “4”?

[Imperious Leader]

Ok the idea of shore bombardment is to simulate long range guns out of the range of shore artillery batterys. SO thats why a BB gets that preemtive shot. I would not propose any land based shots, but i am thinking that after the possible shore shots hits are taken from the defender… the defender should get to “attack” the landing force with as you propose those artillery pieces first as preemtive hits, followed by the attacking landing units rolling and lastly, the defense. That concept seems sound and would facilitate purchase of heavy artillery. The other concept i strongly favor is to allow heavy artillery a one free shot across the border of a territory w/o return fire. this is a real fun but less realistic option (due to the range of heavy caliber artillery). But in these games i have playtested susch a unit for many years and it works within the template of rules very well.

[Biofury]

So during amphibious assault we have…

step 1) battleship offshore bombardment (1 shot each)
step 2) seige artillery attacks landing units and transports (1 shot each)
step 3) normal combat resumes

[Imperious Leader]

Yep thats it, but id add that artillery also gets a shot on stage two (as both artillery represent longer range projectiles similiar to battleships) Also on shore bombards id place limits as follows:

Shore Bombardment and Infantry Support:
During Ground Combat, for amphibious assaults, all surface warships with a combat value of two or higher have one “shore bombardment” attack. In order to support landings for each shot you roll for you must land four Land units. Defender losses do not fire back. In addition, similar to attacking artillery, each shore-bombarding warship improves one attacking infantry (class unit) to an attack die roll modifier of +1 on the first round only. Warships that participate in Naval Combat may not also shore bombard and provide infantry support for amphibious assaults. So if you land 11 infantry, you get only 2 free supporting shots (your choice) plus two of your infantry get +1 on their attack.

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@Imperious:

Andersson-

When you posted those numbers for carriers, cruisers and destroyers did you use my stats for values and costs?

How was your calculation done? dice roller program?

Well I use some statistics and logics! That is all! I am a Master in game theory ;-) You dont want one piece to dominate all others, that is rule number one. The combat ratios must be function of its price, that is desireable. Next thing it has to add value to the game, fix a loophole! Simply it has to make sense and the question one should ask one self is if the new rule is balanced and desirable!

[Imperious Leader]

Working on something right up your alley:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=5862.msg86911#msg86911

Question: under my system which is basically your idea would a carrier or battleship be a better buy. Note: include with the carrier 2 of my new naval fighters 2/2/4/8 with the carrier and also on a seperate study look at your light carrier with the same 2 fighters Vs. the new battleship.

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@Imperious:

Working on something right up your alley:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=5862.msg86911#msg86911

Question: under my system which is basically your idea would a carrier or battleship be a better buy. Note: include with the carrier 2 of my new naval fighters 2/2/4/8 with the carrier and also on a seperate study look at your light carrier with the same 2 fighters Vs. the new battleship.

You have forgotten the fifth tech!
If you use my rule for Convoy Rule you should not also use my revised NA U-boat Interdiction!
Many more small things that needs further work, like to many NAs that are very much the same. Pick the cherries!

Your carrier based figther (2/2/4/8) seems imbalanced at a glance. The movement restriction for carrier baser operations only (except for islands) is a drawback that needs a counter. Your suggestion a preemptive shot. Ifound this a too big advantage. My suggestion is to skip these naval ftrs and make an extension of the Air Supremacy rule, to also include naval battles. So the new rule would be something like:

Air Supremacy
Fighters can support infantry attacks and artillery defense if no enemy fighters are present. Air supremacy increases your infantry’s attack to 2 or your artillery’s defense to 3. Each infantry or artillery must be matched one-for-one with a supporting fighter. More over your fighters attack on 4 in naval combats as long as no enemy fighters are present.

Include a rule that says that fighters always hit fighters first, than the Air Supremacy rule will be even more important! What do you think?

Naval Fighters
Description: Representing carrier based torpedo-bombers and dive-bombers. ( use 1/600 scale planes for these)

Cost: 8
Attack: 2
Defense: 2
Move: 2

Setup: Japan and USA each receive 2 naval fighters free, during the first round only. These are brought into play during the Mobilize New Units Phase on the respective powers´ turn.

Special Abilities
These units can only move from small islands or Carriers and can only attack other naval units. All attacks are preemptive rolls against defending warships prior to the start of the first combat round. After each successive round of combat this advantage is lost.

40 Ftr (regular)

Cost: 400 (10/pc)
Att: 340 = 120
Def: 440 = 160
Hits = 40

50 Ftr (naval)

Cost: 400 (8/pc)
Att: 250 = 100
Def: 250 = 100
Hits = 50
Spec: restricted to AC and first strike ability

[HMS Onslow]

One good thing about Impy’s carrier fghters (or should it be CAG?) is that it gets rid of the silly situation where you have land-based fighters just hopping aboard carriers whenever they want to.

Even seen a P38 or P51 or standard Hurricane or Spit operate off a carrier? Little things like lack of arrestor hooks and catapult spools tend to result in them falling off the deck! Ever seen a Me 109 try to attack a battleship with a light bomb and a 20mm? It helps to have things like torpedoes!

Carrier planes carried specialised units, with a mixture of specialised fighter, TB and DC and ASW aircraft, and it seems nice to reflect that. IMHO they should also negate sub’s pre-emptive attack as ASW aircraft were very good at that. Seems to me a specialised anti-shipping force of planes would be nice, as they ARE specialised in real life; without special training the average heavy bomber has basically no hope of getting near a fast-moving ship. But then , I LIKE complications!

While I’m at it, escorts (as a slow specialised unit for escorting convoys) seem vital to me, and the convoy rules are a step but IMHO submarine warfare is much more flexible than just hitting the guys who live near your ICs.

[Imperious Leader]

One good thing about Impy’s carrier fghters (or should it be CAG?) is that it gets rid of the silly situation where you have land-based fighters just hopping aboard carriers whenever they want to.

I started this idea but this version is a more basic formula for MY original idea which introduced torpedo bombers and dive bombers as specialized air forces (one to naval and the other for land)… My master idea is to abstract carrier fighters into the carrier itself (raising the cost of carriers) > I am the only one who basically has been arguing thats its totally bogus to interchange carrier and land based types… as if they attack from carriers and the same turn land on the mainland ready for an assault on Moscow… just stupid IMO. The carrier and its “offense” should include air power as a built in factor. I have nade an extensive argument for this at HGD a year ago.

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@Imperious:

The carrier and its “offense” should include air power as a built in factor. I have made an extensive argument for this at HGD a year ago.

Exactly were can I read about this statement, it is genious Impy. I would love to take a look at the combat ratios and cost as well as movement!

[Imperious Leader]

NAVAL UNIT CAPABILITIES

Naval Combat

Naval combat occurs when you move units in a sea zone occupied by enemy units. Exceptions: when the active player moves naval units into a sea zone and an enemy submarine decides not to attack, then those units can continue to move into other zones. No combat occurs in this case. In all other circumstances all movement must stop if you move into a zone containing enemy naval surface units and conduct search rolls.

Search rolls:
All surface naval units in the same sea zone prior to naval combat must first conduct a naval search roll. The phasing player can perform only one attempt per sea zone and rolls one d12 as follows:

1. Active player is searching with ships: 4 or less
2. Active player is searching with planes: 6 or less
3. Active player is searching with ships and planes: 8 or less

Modifiers for Radar: (+2 on the above roll)
USA turn 3
UK At start
Japan turn 9

Evasion rolls:
The player who is under a successful search roll by the active player can also attempt to evade his pursuers and avoid naval combat in that sea zone. The defending player can perform only one attempt per sea zone and rolls one D12 to perform naval evasion as follows:

1-8= results in discovery of your fleet and ensuing naval attack.
9-12 = results in successful evasion and no naval combat in the sea zone.

Modifiers for evasion: (all modifiers are cumulative)
Monsoon Weather turn +2
All surface ships move at 4 or more = +1
All surface ships move at 5 = +1 additional (for a total of +2)

Once a successful roll was made the active player rolls one D4 and the result is the minimum number of naval combat rounds that the active player can engage the defender before a new search roll is required. At any time after the first combat round the active player can withdraw a portion of his forces from further combat while preventing the defender from doing the same until again the minimum number of naval combat rounds is met. Note: this “minimum” does not apply to surface naval combat (only between ships) that can be ended after any round following a successful withdrawal roll. Naval Combat then proceeds as follows:

Planes to ship combat:
If any side has a carrier (SCV, CV, CVL, or CVE) or Hybrid Battleship then they must conduct air attacks first before any surface naval combat can occur. Super Carriers have 8 planes, Fleet Carriers have 6 planes, Light Carriers have 4 planes, and Escort Carriers have 2 planes, while Japanese Hybrid Battleship/Carriers have only 1 plane. Next each player who has planes decides how to allocate them into the following combat missions as follows:

1. Combat Air Patrol (CAP) defends first against fighter escorts, followed by remaining planes at 8
2. Torpedo Bombers attacks naval targets at 6 defends against CAP at 4
3. Dive Bombers attacks naval targets at 4 defends against CAP at 6
4. Fighter Escorts attacks CAP only at 8

The selections are made and not disclosed to the other player. Both sides now reveal their airpower allocations and perform aerial combat missions before naval attacks can occur. All the active players’ planes must now engage any defending planes that were assigned to CAP duty and perform aerial combat. All combat is considered simultaneous so both sides get to roll, hits are assigned and loses are removed from play. This procedure of assigning planes and sending them into attacks is repeated until the minimum number of combat rounds (that was rolled on a D4) is reached. Planes assigned for combat missions must perform that duty that combat round. If any of planes survive from either player during that same round following aerial combat, then direct combat against naval units can occur. The active player allocates his torpedo bombers or dive-bombers and targets defending ships. If the defending player has any air units they too can elect to conduct bombing runs on the active players ships. Each plane selects a defending ship to “target” and rolls its attack factor adding any modifiers due to the type of plane performing the attack as follows:

Torpedo Bombers: +1 against Naval targets moving at 3
Torpedo Bombers and Dive Bombers: -1 against Naval targets moving at 5

All targeted ships defend only at a modified Anti-Aircraft factor against planes. Each ship that is targeted can now preemptively fire at every plane that’s attacking. Against Torpedo Bombers its 4 or less, while against Dive-bombers a hit is scored at a 2 or less. Additionally, each Cruiser class unit (both heavy and light cruisers) or Destroyer class unit (Destroyers and Destroyer escorts) can “screen” out any one ship that was targeted at a 1/1 basis so that the enemy planes hit has to go against these ships first instead before any other hits are assigned. Ships that are not targeted cannot fire at planes except that untargeted Cruiser class ships (Heavy and Light Cruisers) get one shot at 4 or less against any ship, while untargeted Destroyer class ships (Destroyer and Destroyer Escorts) get a 2 or less. Both these ships can fire at planes even if the ships themselves are not involved in targeted naval attacks. Note: it’s possible for planes to deliberately attack Cruisers and Destroyers (which voids their special duty in screening out other naval units), while any additional untargeted Cruisers and Destroyers then perform “screening” duty. Hits are assigned to both sides and effected units are removed from play. Combat rounds continue until the minimum number of combat rounds that were rolled on the D4 is reached. At the end of any naval combat round as long as both sides agree they can remain to fight additional naval combat rounds. When either side decides to withdraw a fleet from further actions after the minimum number of naval combat rounds was met (with the D4 roll), then both players roll one D12. The higher roll or a tie results in that player having the choice to continue combat or withdrawing to an adjacent friendly sea zone. Modifications that affect the roll are as follows:

Speed: total up the movement values of each group of naval units and the difference becomes a modifier for the roll.

Number of Carriers: each surviving Carrier with at least one plane acts as a +1 for the side that wants to continue naval combat.

Radar: The side that has radar has a +2 modifier to continue naval combat.

Kamikaze attacks:
Only Japan can assign planes for this type of attack. Kamikazes attack at 8 and defend against CAP at 4. Cruisers and Destroyers class units cannot screen out against this style of attack, so only the targeted ship can be hit. Each ship preemptively defends against these planes at 4.

Ship-to-Ship Combat:
When both players have no planes left, then surface naval action can commence. Every naval unit is assigned an enemy ship to target each combat round with the extra ships of either side being placed at that player’s discretion. Each naval unit rolls its preemptive attacks first and hits are assigned. If two opposing ships with preemptive attacks then combat is considered simultaneous. Only Super Battleships and Battleships have a preemptive primary attack factor. All ships then roll their regular primary and secondary gunnery factors and loses are again applied. In a similar fashion to Plane on Ship naval combat, Each Cruiser and Destroyer class naval unit can also screen out one ship of their choosing at a 1/1 basis. So hits can then go against these units instead of the screened unit. Note: Their are no minimum number of surface naval combat rounds. Naval withdrawals by either side after any surface naval combat round to an adjacent controlled sea zone can take place only with a successful withdrawal roll (use the same rule and modifiers as above). Otherwise combat continues until one side has left the sea zone, or one side’s naval units are sunk.

Submarine Combat:
This form of combat is always performed separately from normal naval combat. During the active players phase, submarines can make attacks on naval units or economic attacks on an enemy’s convoy zone. When used against naval units they can be moved or simply activated from an enemy occupied sea zone and select a target of their choosing roll and hitting on a four or less. Attacking subs have a 1st shot “surprise attack” against naval units, unless defending Cruisers, Destroyers or Destroyer Escorts are present. Losses are applied immediately; so lost units do not get to shoot back. If any ships remain then a search roll may then be performed. Exception: After the first combat round each Cruiser or Destroyer class naval unit can “screen” out one ship of their choosing at a 1/1 basis so that the submarine hit goes against these units instead. Only when the “screening” ship(s) are sunk can the “protected” ship be targeted. Every defending Cruiser or Destroyer class unit is then assigned two rolls to perform a search of each submarine that is attacking with success on any roll of four or less. If they fail to locate the submarine, then the sub can then end combat and remain in the sea zone, or it can conduct another round of combat. If it tries to make a second attack the defending ships have an automatic search success (no roll is needed). They can all defend against the submarine(s) hitting at a 4 or less. This is known as Anti- Submarine Warfare (ASW). No other types of ships can perform ASW rolls. Land or Carrier based planes cannot be involved in Anti- Submarine Warfare (ASW) except USA and UK starting from turn 4.
   Each roll is now done separately until the submarine is sighted. All additional rolls left for these ships can then go against attacking the submarines again hitting on a four or less. On turn 6 the USA and UK player has sufficient sonar capability, which modifies a hit to any roll of six or less. If the submarine is not sighted then another round of combat occurs until either all ships are sunk or either side withdraws from further combat (subs can remain in the sea zone while either side can also retreat to another sea zones).

When the active player decides he wants to attack enemy submarines with ASW warfare, each Cruiser or Destroyer class ship (CA, CL, DD, DE) can each participate in a similar manner to above. No other types of ships can perform ASW. If these units fail to find the submarine, it simply remains in the sea zone. Each roll is now done separately until each submarine is sighted. Each plane then has two rolls each with a successful search result of four or less (six or less on turn 6). Additional rolls are then applied as hits. Note: Bombers cannot actually attack enemy submarines but may be allocated to search for them.

Submarine Economic Attacks
Submarines can also conduct attacks on a nation’s ability to wage war. These are done against enemy Convoy Zones or Industrial Complexes. If enemy units are eliminated or vacated from a Convoy Zone each Submarine (not Kaiten) can conduct economic attack with a roll of one D12 and applies the result as shown below. When conducting direct attacks on a nation’s economy each submarine adjacent to any coastal territory that contains an originally controlled Industrial Complex rolls one D12 and applies the effect as follows:

1-4 = 1 IPC loss
5-8 = 2 IPC loss
9-12=3 IPC loss

Note: if the convoy box contains units then they must be sunk or withdraw before an economic attack can occur. All loses are subtracted from that nations current economic totals.

Planes vs. Ships at Port:
Only planes may attack ships docked in port. Attacks are commenced without use of a search roll. Every ship including ships that are not targeted defends at a modified aerial defense roll of three. Each plane selects which ships it wants to target and can assign their hits to those ships. No ship can “screen” out any other ship (e.g. Cruisers/Destroyers) in this form of attack. Combat is considered simultaneous so both sides get a shot before hits are assigned. All combat vessels take double the hits to sink the warship. The defender must now roll to determine if any degree of surprise was achieved by the attack as follows:

Roll:
1-4= No surprise- all ships defend at three
5-8= Moderate surprise- all ships defend at two
9-12= Complete surprise- all ships defend at one

Note: That all naval units defend at a minimum of one. Naval units that originally defend at values of three or lower defend at one in ports. The result of the die roll lasts for the initial combat round and the result is reduced by one level on each subsequent combat round. Artillery units in any territory that contains a port also get preemptive anti-aircraft fire at each plane.

Night Surface Actions
Japan had superior technique in night combat until turn 5. Following any successful naval search roll but before surface naval combat is performed the Japanese player rolls if it will take place at night. Note: After turn 5 discontinue the roll. Now roll one D12 and if the result is at night then the Japanese player’s naval units gain a +1 modifier. During evasion rolls (after the active player has successfully rolled for search), Japan also gets a +1 modifier. To determine if the surface action is at night roll one D12:

1-8=day
9-12=night

Naval Interception of Naval Units
All Defending naval units (including carrier-based fighters) may intercept moving naval units as the naval units leave their sea zone. The naval units are engaged in one round of naval interception combat in the sea zone. Intercepting naval units roll as the attacker, and the moving naval units roll as the defender. If enemy naval units end their movement in a sea zone containing defending naval units (including during amphibious assaults), the defending naval units may then also conduct combat. Note: That if the non- active player’s naval units allow enemy naval units (which have not withdrawn) to occupy their sea zone and not conduct naval interception, then the active players transports can load or unload ground units.

SUPER BATTLESHIP
(BBB)

30 cost

11/6 attack

11/6 defense

2 moves

Takes 3 hits to sink
–---------------------------------

BATTLESHIP  (BB)
24 cost
9/5 attack
9/5 defense
2 moves
Naval interception, one shot shore , takes 2 hits,

HYBRID BATTLESHIP/
CARRIER (BBAV)
One BB, plus 5 IP

8/2 attack

8/2 defense

2  moves
Only Japan, Naval interception, one shot shore , takes 2 hits, one plane capacity

---

OLD BATTLESHIP (B)
N/A
7/3 attack
7/3 defense
2 moves
Naval interception, one shot shore, takes 2 hits

---

BATTLECRUISER (BC)
18 cost
8/4 attack
8/4 attack
3 moves
Naval interception, one shot shore, takes 2 hits

---

HEAVY
CRUISER  (CA)
10 costs
6 attack
6 defense
3    moves
Naval interception, one shot shore

---

LIGHT CRUISER (CL)
8 cost
4 attack
4 defense
2 moves
Naval interception

---

DESTROYER  (DD)
6 cost
3 attack
3 defense
3  moves
Naval interception ,negates submarines 1st shot, Japan can transport one infantry

DESTROYER ESCORTS
(DE)
4 costs
2 attack
2 defense
3 moves
Subs must engage them before attacking transports

PT BOATS (PT)

2  cost
1   attack
1 defense
3 moves
Surprise attack

SUPER CARRIER
(SCV)
60 cost
4 attack
8 defense
3 moves
8 plane capacity, takes three hits

CARRIER
(CV)
45  costs
2  attack
6  defense
3 moves
6 plane capacity, takes two hits

LIGHT CARRIER  (CVL)
30 costs
1 attack
4 defense
2    moves
4 plane capacity , takes one hit

ESCORT CARRIER  (CVE)
15 costs
0 attack
2 defends
2 moves
2 plane capacity, takes one hit

KAITEN SUBMARINE
(KSS)
3
2
1
1
Japan only, surprise attack

SUBMARINE  (SS)
6
4
4
2

Naval interception,1st shot surprise attack

LONG RANGE SUBMARINE  (SSL)
8
5
5
2

Naval interception, 1st shot surprise attack

4
LANDING CRAFT
(LSI)
5

1
1
Can carry two class 1 units

4
HEAVY TRANSPORT
(LST)
10

2
2
Can carry two class 1 or 2 units

[Imperious Leader]

This is for another game of mine… you can extrapolate what is going on… I can easily convert the numbers for revised…etc. Also note this is D12 system and again i can convert to revised at a whim.

Aircraft Carriers:
These are the primary surface naval unit. The naval air forces are abstracted into each of these units during naval combat. There are four types of Carriers:  Super carriers carry 8 planes, Fleet carriers carry 6 planes, Light carriers carry 4 planes, and Escort Carriers carry 2 planes. Super Carriers take three hits; Carriers take two hits, while Light and Escort Carriers take only one hit.

I know full well that this is the “third Reich” of rules for such a game, while the concept as a whole is a clear evolution from regular axis and allies… I can “milk” this down to any level to even a basic simplicity. I modified the movement of these pieces to the 2-3 range when before they were in the 3-6 range because in the game they are used for has hexes for movement.

[Imperious Leader]

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=412&start=0

this is where some of this came from … i have older posts from 2004 but im still looking.

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@Imperious:

Planes to ship combat:
If any side has a carrier (SCV, CV, CVL, or CVE) or Hybrid Battleship then they must conduct air attacks first before any surface naval combat can occur. Super Carriers have 8 planes, Fleet Carriers have 6 planes, Light Carriers have 4 planes, and Escort Carriers have 2 planes, while Japanese Hybrid Battleship/Carriers have only 1 plane. Next each player who has planes decides how to allocate them into the following combat missions as follows:

1. Combat Air Patrol (CAP) defends first against fighter escorts, followed by remaining planes at 8
2. Torpedo Bombers attacks naval targets at 6 defends against CAP at 4
3. Dive Bombers attacks naval targets at 4 defends against CAP at 6
4. Fighter Escorts attacks CAP only at 8

The selections are made and not disclosed to the other player. Both sides now reveal their airpower allocations and perform aerial combat missions before naval attacks can occur. All the active players’ planes must now engage any defending planes that were assigned to CAP duty and perform aerial combat. All combat is considered simultaneous so both sides get to roll, hits are assigned and loses are removed from play.

Wow unexpected and as expected too advanced IMHO! I was thinking of something more generic like a new revised aircraft carrier unit without fighters onboard. Something like:

Aircraft Carriers

Description: Speedy ships that can strike deep into enemy territory.

(Figthers can no longer land on a carrier)

Cost: 16
Attack: 4
Defense: 3
Move: 3

Special Abilities
Aerial Fire Support: In an amphibious assault, your carriers may like battleships make a support shot on amphibious assaults on a 4. Each carrier fires once during the Conduct Opening Fire step against enemy land units in the territory being attacked (the enemy units do not fire back). A carrier cannot conduct shore bombardment if it was involved in a sea combat prior the amphibious assault.

Air Strikes: Carriers always fire in the opening fire step, whether on attack or defense. Cassualties from this opening fire will be destroyed before they can return fire.

The following link say something about Carriers vs Battleships: http://groups.google.se/group/soc.history.war.world-war-ii/browse_thread/thread/572028548c8e1a02/e4a54bb2c11621be%23e4a54bb2c11621be?sa=X&oi=groupsr&start=0&num=3

[HMS Onslow]

WARNING - NEWBIE’S LONG RAVING POST :?

Nice.

If I can throw in a few ideas, as this thread seems to have moved on……

Impy like you I created the old battleships; they’re an interesting piece, well able to scare a Scharnhorst type or to defend (Surigao St) and useful for bombardment.

Personally I like having carrier planes (would Carrier Air Group be a better term as they are not all fighters?) separate from carriers, as it was quite possible for a CAG to be almost wiped out without the carrier itself getting scratched (see Zuikaku at Coral Sea IIRC).

One thing that could be interesting is to allow Japanese fighters to land on carriers in the Pacific, as many of their fighters were naval. While I don’t think all the pilots (apart from the vets) were trained in carrier landing, at least they did have that ability I think. And maybe other carriers could send fighters off but not take them back on, to replicate the sort of runs that Wasp and Furious did sending fighters to Malta. Just a minor detail but quite fun (mind you, I’m assuming the map is modified to include Malta which makes for some interesting play).

One thing is that cruisers didn’t hunt subs much. In fact off-hand I can’t recall a single instance where a cruiser sank a sub. Secondly is there any precedent for light cruisers being slower than heavy cruisers? Candidates for fastest cruisers were CLs like Atlantas and Didos IIRC.

One thing that’s strange is the incredibly slow movement of ships in the game. Like you I move the faster ones at 3 (which also adds the nice touch of having slow convoys and fast fleets) but this is still incredibly slow. A textbook figure for an armoured divison advance without combat was something like 2 1/2 mph during daylight only, which is 25% of the speed of a slow converted trawler which has vastly longer range and moves 24/7- yet in the game they move at the same speed! That takes away a whole lot of the flexibility of naval power.

It takes a 25 knot ship 9 turns to go from the UK around the world and back. That’s equivalent to what over 2 years, when the first guy to SAIL singlehanded non-stop on the same route did it in well under a year (4 moves) in a little old 33’ cruising ketch that did about 5 mph average! With distortion like that, no wonder naval units are under-used.

Exactly how you avoid the situation of having realistic-speed ships able to conduct a D Day landing from the USA without warning remains a problem; or does it? Just put a range limit on amphib ops?

I’m searching for a way that naval units can go something like realistic speed (which would improve the game IMHO) without getting too powerful. See below for some ideas.

There’s a guy with suggested rules somewhere else who allows planes to fly over only one sea zone to and from targets in combat moves; that looks good to me. Have you tried it?

SOME UNITS

These are just my ideas; you guys are much more experienced in A&A and it’s been years since I created any rules. It’s interesting to see how similar they are in some ways. I’ve given some a little “spiel” as in the real rules.

Anti-Shipping Aircraft. Cost 12. Attack/Defend 2 (v air/land) 4 (v ships). Gives ASW coverage to sea zones adjacent to “airport”. Non-combat move 6.

These represent anti-shipping and anti-sub forces (Liberators, Catalinas, Sunderlands, Beauforts, SM 179s, He 111 torpedo bombers, Nells, and landed CAGs like the Skuas of Norway '40 fame)? Normal bombers couldn’t hit a ship in a month of sundays, but the specialist groups sank the British capital ships Prince of York and Repulse and sealed the Japanese fate in New Guinea in the Battle of the Bismarck Sea. (oh, and to anyone who is puzzled - yes there was such a battle and no it had nothing to do with the German Bismarck!..and I may be wrojng about the 5th AF having specialist training but I think they did)

Old Battleship – Cost N/A, Attack 4, Defend 4 (ships) or 3 (subs) move 2, takes 2 hits.

The US and UK had many old battleships “left over” from WW1. They were weak and slow (hence the 2 movements)  compared to other battleships, but in actions like Gneisenau and Scharnhorst v Revenge (IIRC) to Surigao Strait, they proved to be vital as far as defending freighters and troopships went. They were also good for bombardment. Because they were old, of course, you can’t build any more! (PS; it’s very tempting to create a few more units like modernised old battleships and old battlecruisers, but I’ll try not to!)

PS- battleships should be able to bombard IN DEFENCE without needing an amphib movement to support IMHO. Maybe drop attack to 2 to represent the fact that in such a situation many units they are attacking are inland. Even ships that were outdated in WW1 like the German Schiesen were pretty potent supporting ground forces in the Baltic - a hit by an 11" hurts no matter how old it is!
Carrier w 2 AC – Cost 22, Attack 4, Defend 7, Move 3.

Light Carrier - Impy, Cleveland class CVLs were just as quick as an Essex weren’t they? Why do you have them slower?

Escort Carrier – Cost 5, Attack 0, Defend 1, Move 2, Anti-Sub. Carries 1 CAG.

Escort carriers were enormously important in protecting convoys from subs. The cost seems low compared to transports, but each Escort Carrier (CVE) piece represents far fewer ships than a transport piece. The movement of 2 reflects the fact that these were capable of only around 18 knots (compared to the 26-30+ of a fast carrier).

Cruiser – Cost 14, Attack 3, Defend 3*, Move 3        Shore bombardment 3/3.

Important ships; versatile. Some house rules have them basically as A/A vessels but out of the dozens of classes of cruisers, only 3 (Dido, Atlanta, old “C”s) were actually A/A vessels. Takes 2 hits.

Having CLs and CEs is interesting, but the CEs were not always as weak as you reckon Impy. I suppose it may be related to the fact that the terms were confusing in that there were “heavy cruisers” that were actually much lighter than some “light cruisers”!

Destroyer – Cost 10, Attack 3, Defend 2, move 3, Anti-Sub, minesweep; shore bombard?

Some rules say destroyers can only move 3 when they have a fast carrier with them to refuel…their short range should be reflected in some way.

PS - DEs are good. I thought they might make life a bit complicated but hey, they’re fun. They represent both new DEs (US types, UK “Hunts”) and old DD (four stackers, V&Ws) and German, Italian and Japanese large Torpedo Boats (not to be confused with MTBs or TBs).

Impy re PT boats (let’s not forget also UK MTBs, Italian MAS, German E or S Boots… :-)  )

Interesting, but really did they ever DO anything during the war? Off hand I think I can remember one UK cruiser going down to “PT boat” attack; maybe some others. The biography of a successful commander of the largest “PT boat” of them all shows he was worried about converted trawlers and armed landing craft! At the very least surely you can’t allow them to move 3 since they were very, very short ranged; maybe like fighters they can just defend the area adjaent to their home port, and only otherwise move non-combat. They really should be weak as water IMHO.

Escort -      Cost 6, Attack 1 (3 A/S), Defend 2, move 2. Anti-Sub, minesweep @

Represents corvettes, frigates, minesweepers, converted trawlers. The backbone of the convoy defenders, but too slow to move with a fleet.

Troopship – Cost 20, Attack 0, Defend 2, Move 3 (or 4)? Carries 4 infantry.

Large liners like the Queen Elizabeth. These were among the most important of all units in the war, and perhaps the fastest of all  over long distances (long range at high speed).

Transport  – Cost 4, Attack 0, Defend 1, Move 2 Carries ground units & logistics (8I.P.)

Becomes cheaper to allow for the fact that UK etc need lots of them (see convoy rules below) and the fact that they cannot be used in amphibious attacks against DEFENDED zones.

Landing Craft – Cost 8, Attack 0, Defend 1, Move 2 Carries ground units and logistics

Note- I’m still trying to work out a logistics system for ground warfare! Any help?

Fleet Train – Cost 5, Attack 0, Defend 1, Move 2 Repairs and supplies ships.

All combat craft must be within 2 SZ of Fleet Train or friendly territory, or add 1 to all rolls.

Note- this is another example of the old “captains think tactics, majors think strategy, generals think logistics” idea. Ships spent something like 20% of their time undergoing refit and without that they were slowed by dirty hulls, engines broke down, radars died. Oh, and without fuel they don’t go very well anyway! So the game must reflect that in some way. This may allow ships to get realistic range without dominating. This doesn’t reflect the long range of cruisers, though…must work that one out.

This also does not apply to transports as these had long range, or to long range subs.

I’m warming to this…it could accumulate so if you were 3 SZ from a base, you add 2 to all rolls; moves away. Note - DOES NOT APPLY to SZ 12 and under, to allow for the distortion in the map which would otherwise make life very hard for the Germans.

If it works, ships could be allowed to go even faster; perhaps they could go faster only in non-combat moves? More realism, more flexibility!

Submarine – Cost 6, Attack 2* Defend 2, move 3 (or 1 when submerged).

Long-range subs are interesting and a very good idea IMHO, Impy, but there is little doubt that they were INFERIOR in defence as they took longer to submerge and were less manouvrable. I don’t think they were actually any better in attack either. See Doenitz’s memoirs, John Terraine and many other sources.

Maybe leave the cost high, have the same attack and defence, but don’t require Long Range subs to be near a home port?

Q Ships. Still wondering about this, just for fun. Not so much a Q Ship (it’s just a cool name) but an armed merchant raider of the Kormoran type. I wonder if it would be kept off the board, and the player running it could just write down the SZ it was in and then (assuming there was no combat) hand that over to the other player for checking later? Could a similar system make subs more powerful? Attack 1, Defend 1, speed 2, cost ???. Also act as “fleet train” for 1 ship (which is what happened when they were used as supply ships for PBs etc IIRC)

Q Ships are equipped for long voyages so the rule requiring ships to be near a home port doesn’t apply. The same could be applied to German “pocket battleships” which are otherwise CLs (which is what the germans late reclassified them as they were not as powerful as claimed). This gives the PBs some unique and realistic abilities.

Convoys - Nice system but saying you only lose points if the subs are off your IPC robs subs of a lot of their interest and power. Doenitz would sometimes send some subs into the St Lawrence and others to Cape Town at the same time. This flexibility was one of the interesting things about ASW.

I’ve tried various mechanisms and I’m turning towards a situation where UK, USA and Japan must keep freighters afloat in certain sea zones or lose IPs. It’s basically the Larry convoy route system, (which i didn’t know about at the time) but instead of one box, you have a whole zone to move around in. This allows you to dodge convoys and subs around like Wynn, Horton and Doenitz did in real life.

Zones are;

UK- SZ 1, 2, 7, 8,9,10,11 (have at least 1 transport at sea here or lose 8? IP). The main transatlantic route.
    - SZ 28-35 (have at least 1 transport at sea here or lose 5? IP).
    - SZ 11,12,17,18,19, 22-26 (have at least 1 transport at sea here or lose 5? IP)

US - SZ 10, 19 (simulating the Carribbean tanker traffic and the shipping along the E Coast) or lose 5.
      - 1 transport at sea somewhere else or lose 5?

Russia (Yep, Russia). One US or UK transport in 30-35 OR in 3 and 4, or loses 5? IP (simulating the lend lease convoys through Murmansk or Persia…obviously both those must be held!)

Germany - Transport in Baltic OR ADJACENT PORT (to simulate the amount of fighter cover available) or loses 5 IPC (no iron ore etc from Norway and Sweden)

Japan - 1 transport at sea in 36,37, 49,59,58, or loses 8 IPC (vital oil traffic from NEI and Borneo)

1 other transport somewhere at sea in “japanese” SZ OTHER than 60-61 or loses 5 IPC

1 other transport at sea in 59,60,61, or loses 8 IPC.

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So that’s a few ideas. Sorry to ramble on so much.

Add some retreat–on-land rules (I’m totally with you on that one Impy) and logistics and life could be interesting. Oh, and some rules to allow for fast movement inside sophisticated countries (ie Germany and Central US don’t count for movement of their forces), stop ships running through the Straits of Gib and into the Baltic; change the IPs to represent the fact that places like Ukraine and Caucasus created 60% of Russian supplies etc; and add some “terrain” (it’s very hard to attack India from Burma, it’s slow to attack through Italy/Southern Europe, give the poor Russians some more winter and maybe a monsoon for Asia, add in those interesting optional rules somewhere else for China, changing arty rules, introduce AT and mech infty…and we’ve got a totally new game. :roll:

Oh well!

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

This revised carrier unit include air power as a built in factor, hence it is no longer a plattform from which fighters can take off and land. The hole  idea is to abstract carrier fighters into the carrier itself! The statistics below the data for the new carrier unit confirm that cost and combatcapability is balanced compared to battleships. Now carriers are the most offensive naval piece and battleships are the most defensive pieces, due to better over-all defensive (best defensive value, two hit rule and smaller movement) capability. This new type of carrier should be used in conjunction with fast destroyers (or if you prefer to call them cruisers as I would), destroyers move is increased to 3. Now carriers and destroyers have a move of 3.

Aircraft Carriers

Description: Speedy ships that can strike deep into enemy territory.

(Figthers can no longer land on a carrier)

Cost: 16
Attack: 4
Defense: 3
Move: 3

Special Abilities
Aerial Fire Support: In an amphibious assault, your carriers may like battleships make a support shot on amphibious assaults on a 4. Each carrier fires once during the Conduct Opening Fire step against enemy land units in the territory being attacked (the enemy units do not fire back). A carrier cannot conduct shore bombardment if it was involved in a sea combat prior the amphibious assault.

Air Strikes: Carriers always fire in the opening fire step, whether on attack or defense. Cassualties from this opening fire will be destroyed before they can return fire.

12 BB (24 IPCs/BB)

Cost: 288 IPCs
Att: 124 = 48
Def: 122 = 48
Hits = 24

18 CA (16 IPCs/CA)

Cost: 288 IPCs
Att: 184 = 72
Def: 183 = 54
Hits = 16

1st round

Att CA: 72/6 = 12 hits -> 12 hits absorbed and 12 BBs left
Def BB: 48/6 = 8 -> 10 CA left

2nd round

Att CA: 104/6 = 6,67 hits -> 5,33 BBs left to counter fire, due to opening fire
Def BB: 5,334/6 = 3,55 hits -> 6,45 CA left

3rd round

Att CA: 6,454/6 = 4,33 hits -> 1 BB left to counter fire, due to opening fire
Def BB: 14/6 = 0,67 hits -> 5,78 CA left

4th round

Att CA: 5,78*4/6 = 3,85 hits -> 0 BBs left to counter fire, due to opening fire

1st round

Def CA: 183/6 = 9 hits -> 9 hits absorbed and 12 BBs left
Att BB: 124/6 = 8 -> 10 CA left

2nd round

Def CA: 103/6 = 5 hits -> 3 hits absorbed and 10 BBs left to counter fire, due to opening fire
Att BB: 104/6 = 6,67 hits -> 3,33 CA left

3rd round

Def CA: 3,333/6 = 1,67 hits -> 8,33 BB left to counter fire, due to opening fire
Att BB: 8,334/6 = 5,55 hits -> 0 CA left

[Imperious Leader]

Hey HMS Winslow… you and i have to talk… I like how you express your ideas… its nice to chat with people who have taken some history classes… IN my versions the naval units move from 2-6 hexes. (landing barges at 2, and PT boats at 6) all the other ships are somewhere in between. THe point you make about Cruisers and ASW is correct, but AS you may know Light Cruisers were also used as convoy escort and the problem becomes the ASW abilities of DD give too much value to these units in terms of price when compared to cruisers… I may reconsider this… but the ideas i presented are not final… its PART of the rules for a mega project that will soon be released called War in the Pacific 1941-1945… Its only presented to “show” the ability to abstract the fighter component of a carriers abilities in naval combat, rather than basically “buying bullets” to shoot the gun which is what axis and allies has become with respect to the CV. I want to comment on what you have posted and will finish up  tomorrow.

[Imperious Leader]

Hey im still dijesting your post… in CVE’s they were much slower than the “cruiser hull” front line jobs… they should not move fast at all… they are just cheap “jeep” carriers… cannon fodder for any cruiser.

Light Carrier - Impy, Cleveland class CVLs were just as quick as an Essex weren’t they? Why do you have them slower?
in that case your correct… 32-34 knots  but i will look at UK and Jap carriers as well…I must have gotten this somewhere based on research because thats were all the numbers came from.