Anti-Aircraft Guns and Heavy Artillery

[Biofury]

Just curious to see what method players are doing to knock down enemy birds.
The second method is the original nova version and more AA guns would be purchased this way. This would also make them more lethal and intimidating and would force fighters to escort bombers to receive the hits (this method would favor Germany since Allies love to SBR)

And another thing is how would you stat heavy artillery such as… 8in M1’s, 203mm 1931’s, Paris Gun, 240mm M1, 16in 1919’s, etc… Cannons used to bombard enemy locations at the front lines and even coastal defence. I need something to represent all those cannons I have from Risk.
I came up with Cost: 8-10 / Move: 1 / Attack: 4 / Defend 1 or 2 (maybe you can do better?) 8-)

[Imperious Leader]

Forget about aa guns, roll one d10 for each artillery unit as a built in AA capability. In the real war only 10% of planes were shot down, so that 1 out of 6 figure is not accurate. Also , now those aa guns can become heavy artillery/anti-tank guns…

attack 4
defence 2
move 1
cost 8

can get an alternate across the territory shot of one free preemtive shot from an adjacent territory. So they can either perform this one free shot or engage as a regular combat unit. they also give infantry a +1 combat modifier. If the defender has any armor units (tanks or artillery)  present, heavy artillery hits must go against them first.

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@Imperious:

attack 4
defence 2
move 1
cost 8

A major advantage for the American artillery was that it was fully motorized and highly mobile. I think that US artillery should move 2, but cannot blitz as tanks!

[Imperious Leader]

yes thats fine but those stats were for a generic piece. American artillery was more mobile. If you want a nation specific list i can provide that.

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@Imperious:

yes thats fine but those stats were for a generic piece. American artillery was more mobile. If you want a nation specific list i can provide that.

No that is fine Impy. I dont like the idea of more units, but just want to make some optional rules that will clearly make the game better balanced and realistic. For the moment I am trying to work out some optional rules that will counter the problem with navy buys. More units like the cruiser unit did not work out in my opinion, due to the fact of the high cost for building up a navy!

My generic solution is better IMHO, the tech heavy artlillery!

[Imperious Leader]

Andersson-

I would hope that you of all people can truly appreciate that growing need to evolve the various problems pertinent with the “basic” rules template and would hope that you induce some small changes to how people play both 2nd and revised editions. But to remain true to the game from this evolutionary standard you would have a complete new set of rules that is not within the yoke of the original. That means new pieces, new ideas, new concepts. The bonds of the original rules template should offer two paths for the casual gamer. IN my case i offer something of a major departure from these rules which integrate many new ideas built along a core of historical accuracies, but do not encumber the player with the minutia of historical notes.I view your task to educate many people here with a dose of well written rules that make the game more playable and i see you dont want to take the larger step into a new departure as to alienate these masses who are still stuck with the LHTR mindset. But I took this step alone as it seems to push the envelop out of frustration with some basic ideas that were whitewashed in the game design to make this thing a “family game” .
    With that being said what im trying to do here is slowly introduce ideas that follow from this concept so a noticable shift will move these players into more substantive needs. As you may know Larry seems on the fence with the “advanced concept” but with many players gradually accepting and supporting a new evolution in the game, that will make that game possible and to that end i strive.

When you posted those numbers for carriers, cruisers and destroyers did you use my stats for values and costs?

How was your calculation done? dice roller program?

I want to understand your math, because some of these values come directly from my own games and i am sure they are perfect from a cost point basis and in practical playtesting. I do have many additional units as well, but my system that formed those values is basically from the same exercise.

[Biofury]

@Imperious:

attack 4
defence 2
move 1
cost 8

Would you allow these siege artillery pieces to counter-attack during a battleships offshore bombardment right before the amphibious assault? And if you did what value would you make the hit, A “1” like the AA-guns or even with the battleship using the guns natural “4”?

[Imperious Leader]

Ok the idea of shore bombardment is to simulate long range guns out of the range of shore artillery batterys. SO thats why a BB gets that preemtive shot. I would not propose any land based shots, but i am thinking that after the possible shore shots hits are taken from the defender… the defender should get to “attack” the landing force with as you propose those artillery pieces first as preemtive hits, followed by the attacking landing units rolling and lastly, the defense. That concept seems sound and would facilitate purchase of heavy artillery. The other concept i strongly favor is to allow heavy artillery a one free shot across the border of a territory w/o return fire. this is a real fun but less realistic option (due to the range of heavy caliber artillery). But in these games i have playtested susch a unit for many years and it works within the template of rules very well.

[Biofury]

So during amphibious assault we have…

step 1) battleship offshore bombardment (1 shot each)
step 2) seige artillery attacks landing units and transports (1 shot each)
step 3) normal combat resumes

[Imperious Leader]

Yep thats it, but id add that artillery also gets a shot on stage two (as both artillery represent longer range projectiles similiar to battleships) Also on shore bombards id place limits as follows:

Shore Bombardment and Infantry Support:
During Ground Combat, for amphibious assaults, all surface warships with a combat value of two or higher have one “shore bombardment” attack. In order to support landings for each shot you roll for you must land four Land units. Defender losses do not fire back. In addition, similar to attacking artillery, each shore-bombarding warship improves one attacking infantry (class unit) to an attack die roll modifier of +1 on the first round only. Warships that participate in Naval Combat may not also shore bombard and provide infantry support for amphibious assaults. So if you land 11 infantry, you get only 2 free supporting shots (your choice) plus two of your infantry get +1 on their attack.

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@Imperious:

Andersson-

When you posted those numbers for carriers, cruisers and destroyers did you use my stats for values and costs?

How was your calculation done? dice roller program?

Well I use some statistics and logics! That is all! I am a Master in game theory ;-) You dont want one piece to dominate all others, that is rule number one. The combat ratios must be function of its price, that is desireable. Next thing it has to add value to the game, fix a loophole! Simply it has to make sense and the question one should ask one self is if the new rule is balanced and desirable!

[Imperious Leader]

Working on something right up your alley:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=5862.msg86911#msg86911

Question: under my system which is basically your idea would a carrier or battleship be a better buy. Note: include with the carrier 2 of my new naval fighters 2/2/4/8 with the carrier and also on a seperate study look at your light carrier with the same 2 fighters Vs. the new battleship.

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@Imperious:

Working on something right up your alley:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=5862.msg86911#msg86911

Question: under my system which is basically your idea would a carrier or battleship be a better buy. Note: include with the carrier 2 of my new naval fighters 2/2/4/8 with the carrier and also on a seperate study look at your light carrier with the same 2 fighters Vs. the new battleship.

You have forgotten the fifth tech!
If you use my rule for Convoy Rule you should not also use my revised NA U-boat Interdiction!
Many more small things that needs further work, like to many NAs that are very much the same. Pick the cherries!

Your carrier based figther (2/2/4/8) seems imbalanced at a glance. The movement restriction for carrier baser operations only (except for islands) is a drawback that needs a counter. Your suggestion a preemptive shot. Ifound this a too big advantage. My suggestion is to skip these naval ftrs and make an extension of the Air Supremacy rule, to also include naval battles. So the new rule would be something like:

Air Supremacy
Fighters can support infantry attacks and artillery defense if no enemy fighters are present. Air supremacy increases your infantry’s attack to 2 or your artillery’s defense to 3. Each infantry or artillery must be matched one-for-one with a supporting fighter. More over your fighters attack on 4 in naval combats as long as no enemy fighters are present.

Include a rule that says that fighters always hit fighters first, than the Air Supremacy rule will be even more important! What do you think?

Naval Fighters
Description: Representing carrier based torpedo-bombers and dive-bombers. ( use 1/600 scale planes for these)

Cost: 8
Attack: 2
Defense: 2
Move: 2

Setup: Japan and USA each receive 2 naval fighters free, during the first round only. These are brought into play during the Mobilize New Units Phase on the respective powers´ turn.

Special Abilities
These units can only move from small islands or Carriers and can only attack other naval units. All attacks are preemptive rolls against defending warships prior to the start of the first combat round. After each successive round of combat this advantage is lost.

40 Ftr (regular)

Cost: 400 (10/pc)
Att: 340 = 120
Def: 440 = 160
Hits = 40

50 Ftr (naval)

Cost: 400 (8/pc)
Att: 250 = 100
Def: 250 = 100
Hits = 50
Spec: restricted to AC and first strike ability

[HMS Onslow]

One good thing about Impy’s carrier fghters (or should it be CAG?) is that it gets rid of the silly situation where you have land-based fighters just hopping aboard carriers whenever they want to.

Even seen a P38 or P51 or standard Hurricane or Spit operate off a carrier? Little things like lack of arrestor hooks and catapult spools tend to result in them falling off the deck! Ever seen a Me 109 try to attack a battleship with a light bomb and a 20mm? It helps to have things like torpedoes!

Carrier planes carried specialised units, with a mixture of specialised fighter, TB and DC and ASW aircraft, and it seems nice to reflect that. IMHO they should also negate sub’s pre-emptive attack as ASW aircraft were very good at that. Seems to me a specialised anti-shipping force of planes would be nice, as they ARE specialised in real life; without special training the average heavy bomber has basically no hope of getting near a fast-moving ship. But then , I LIKE complications!

While I’m at it, escorts (as a slow specialised unit for escorting convoys) seem vital to me, and the convoy rules are a step but IMHO submarine warfare is much more flexible than just hitting the guys who live near your ICs.

[Imperious Leader]

One good thing about Impy’s carrier fghters (or should it be CAG?) is that it gets rid of the silly situation where you have land-based fighters just hopping aboard carriers whenever they want to.

I started this idea but this version is a more basic formula for MY original idea which introduced torpedo bombers and dive bombers as specialized air forces (one to naval and the other for land)… My master idea is to abstract carrier fighters into the carrier itself (raising the cost of carriers) > I am the only one who basically has been arguing thats its totally bogus to interchange carrier and land based types… as if they attack from carriers and the same turn land on the mainland ready for an assault on Moscow… just stupid IMO. The carrier and its “offense” should include air power as a built in factor. I have nade an extensive argument for this at HGD a year ago.

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@Imperious:

The carrier and its “offense” should include air power as a built in factor. I have made an extensive argument for this at HGD a year ago.

Exactly were can I read about this statement, it is genious Impy. I would love to take a look at the combat ratios and cost as well as movement!

[Imperious Leader]

NAVAL UNIT CAPABILITIES

Naval Combat

Naval combat occurs when you move units in a sea zone occupied by enemy units. Exceptions: when the active player moves naval units into a sea zone and an enemy submarine decides not to attack, then those units can continue to move into other zones. No combat occurs in this case. In all other circumstances all movement must stop if you move into a zone containing enemy naval surface units and conduct search rolls.

Search rolls:
All surface naval units in the same sea zone prior to naval combat must first conduct a naval search roll. The phasing player can perform only one attempt per sea zone and rolls one d12 as follows:

1. Active player is searching with ships: 4 or less
2. Active player is searching with planes: 6 or less
3. Active player is searching with ships and planes: 8 or less

Modifiers for Radar: (+2 on the above roll)
USA turn 3
UK At start
Japan turn 9

Evasion rolls:
The player who is under a successful search roll by the active player can also attempt to evade his pursuers and avoid naval combat in that sea zone. The defending player can perform only one attempt per sea zone and rolls one D12 to perform naval evasion as follows:

1-8= results in discovery of your fleet and ensuing naval attack.
9-12 = results in successful evasion and no naval combat in the sea zone.

Modifiers for evasion: (all modifiers are cumulative)
Monsoon Weather turn +2
All surface ships move at 4 or more = +1
All surface ships move at 5 = +1 additional (for a total of +2)

Once a successful roll was made the active player rolls one D4 and the result is the minimum number of naval combat rounds that the active player can engage the defender before a new search roll is required. At any time after the first combat round the active player can withdraw a portion of his forces from further combat while preventing the defender from doing the same until again the minimum number of naval combat rounds is met. Note: this “minimum” does not apply to surface naval combat (only between ships) that can be ended after any round following a successful withdrawal roll. Naval Combat then proceeds as follows:

Planes to ship combat:
If any side has a carrier (SCV, CV, CVL, or CVE) or Hybrid Battleship then they must conduct air attacks first before any surface naval combat can occur. Super Carriers have 8 planes, Fleet Carriers have 6 planes, Light Carriers have 4 planes, and Escort Carriers have 2 planes, while Japanese Hybrid Battleship/Carriers have only 1 plane. Next each player who has planes decides how to allocate them into the following combat missions as follows:

1. Combat Air Patrol (CAP) defends first against fighter escorts, followed by remaining planes at 8
2. Torpedo Bombers attacks naval targets at 6 defends against CAP at 4
3. Dive Bombers attacks naval targets at 4 defends against CAP at 6
4. Fighter Escorts attacks CAP only at 8

The selections are made and not disclosed to the other player. Both sides now reveal their airpower allocations and perform aerial combat missions before naval attacks can occur. All the active players’ planes must now engage any defending planes that were assigned to CAP duty and perform aerial combat. All combat is considered simultaneous so both sides get to roll, hits are assigned and loses are removed from play. This procedure of assigning planes and sending them into attacks is repeated until the minimum number of combat rounds (that was rolled on a D4) is reached. Planes assigned for combat missions must perform that duty that combat round. If any of planes survive from either player during that same round following aerial combat, then direct combat against naval units can occur. The active player allocates his torpedo bombers or dive-bombers and targets defending ships. If the defending player has any air units they too can elect to conduct bombing runs on the active players ships. Each plane selects a defending ship to “target” and rolls its attack factor adding any modifiers due to the type of plane performing the attack as follows:

Torpedo Bombers: +1 against Naval targets moving at 3
Torpedo Bombers and Dive Bombers: -1 against Naval targets moving at 5

All targeted ships defend only at a modified Anti-Aircraft factor against planes. Each ship that is targeted can now preemptively fire at every plane that’s attacking. Against Torpedo Bombers its 4 or less, while against Dive-bombers a hit is scored at a 2 or less. Additionally, each Cruiser class unit (both heavy and light cruisers) or Destroyer class unit (Destroyers and Destroyer escorts) can “screen” out any one ship that was targeted at a 1/1 basis so that the enemy planes hit has to go against these ships first instead before any other hits are assigned. Ships that are not targeted cannot fire at planes except that untargeted Cruiser class ships (Heavy and Light Cruisers) get one shot at 4 or less against any ship, while untargeted Destroyer class ships (Destroyer and Destroyer Escorts) get a 2 or less. Both these ships can fire at planes even if the ships themselves are not involved in targeted naval attacks. Note: it’s possible for planes to deliberately attack Cruisers and Destroyers (which voids their special duty in screening out other naval units), while any additional untargeted Cruisers and Destroyers then perform “screening” duty. Hits are assigned to both sides and effected units are removed from play. Combat rounds continue until the minimum number of combat rounds that were rolled on the D4 is reached. At the end of any naval combat round as long as both sides agree they can remain to fight additional naval combat rounds. When either side decides to withdraw a fleet from further actions after the minimum number of naval combat rounds was met (with the D4 roll), then both players roll one D12. The higher roll or a tie results in that player having the choice to continue combat or withdrawing to an adjacent friendly sea zone. Modifications that affect the roll are as follows:

Speed: total up the movement values of each group of naval units and the difference becomes a modifier for the roll.

Number of Carriers: each surviving Carrier with at least one plane acts as a +1 for the side that wants to continue naval combat.

Radar: The side that has radar has a +2 modifier to continue naval combat.

Kamikaze attacks:
Only Japan can assign planes for this type of attack. Kamikazes attack at 8 and defend against CAP at 4. Cruisers and Destroyers class units cannot screen out against this style of attack, so only the targeted ship can be hit. Each ship preemptively defends against these planes at 4.

Ship-to-Ship Combat:
When both players have no planes left, then surface naval action can commence. Every naval unit is assigned an enemy ship to target each combat round with the extra ships of either side being placed at that player’s discretion. Each naval unit rolls its preemptive attacks first and hits are assigned. If two opposing ships with preemptive attacks then combat is considered simultaneous. Only Super Battleships and Battleships have a preemptive primary attack factor. All ships then roll their regular primary and secondary gunnery factors and loses are again applied. In a similar fashion to Plane on Ship naval combat, Each Cruiser and Destroyer class naval unit can also screen out one ship of their choosing at a 1/1 basis. So hits can then go against these units instead of the screened unit. Note: Their are no minimum number of surface naval combat rounds. Naval withdrawals by either side after any surface naval combat round to an adjacent controlled sea zone can take place only with a successful withdrawal roll (use the same rule and modifiers as above). Otherwise combat continues until one side has left the sea zone, or one side’s naval units are sunk.

Submarine Combat:
This form of combat is always performed separately from normal naval combat. During the active players phase, submarines can make attacks on naval units or economic attacks on an enemy’s convoy zone. When used against naval units they can be moved or simply activated from an enemy occupied sea zone and select a target of their choosing roll and hitting on a four or less. Attacking subs have a 1st shot “surprise attack” against naval units, unless defending Cruisers, Destroyers or Destroyer Escorts are present. Losses are applied immediately; so lost units do not get to shoot back. If any ships remain then a search roll may then be performed. Exception: After the first combat round each Cruiser or Destroyer class naval unit can “screen” out one ship of their choosing at a 1/1 basis so that the submarine hit goes against these units instead. Only when the “screening” ship(s) are sunk can the “protected” ship be targeted. Every defending Cruiser or Destroyer class unit is then assigned two rolls to perform a search of each submarine that is attacking with success on any roll of four or less. If they fail to locate the submarine, then the sub can then end combat and remain in the sea zone, or it can conduct another round of combat. If it tries to make a second attack the defending ships have an automatic search success (no roll is needed). They can all defend against the submarine(s) hitting at a 4 or less. This is known as Anti- Submarine Warfare (ASW). No other types of ships can perform ASW rolls. Land or Carrier based planes cannot be involved in Anti- Submarine Warfare (ASW) except USA and UK starting from turn 4.
   Each roll is now done separately until the submarine is sighted. All additional rolls left for these ships can then go against attacking the submarines again hitting on a four or less. On turn 6 the USA and UK player has sufficient sonar capability, which modifies a hit to any roll of six or less. If the submarine is not sighted then another round of combat occurs until either all ships are sunk or either side withdraws from further combat (subs can remain in the sea zone while either side can also retreat to another sea zones).

When the active player decides he wants to attack enemy submarines with ASW warfare, each Cruiser or Destroyer class ship (CA, CL, DD, DE) can each participate in a similar manner to above. No other types of ships can perform ASW. If these units fail to find the submarine, it simply remains in the sea zone. Each roll is now done separately until each submarine is sighted. Each plane then has two rolls each with a successful search result of four or less (six or less on turn 6). Additional rolls are then applied as hits. Note: Bombers cannot actually attack enemy submarines but may be allocated to search for them.

Submarine Economic Attacks
Submarines can also conduct attacks on a nation’s ability to wage war. These are done against enemy Convoy Zones or Industrial Complexes. If enemy units are eliminated or vacated from a Convoy Zone each Submarine (not Kaiten) can conduct economic attack with a roll of one D12 and applies the result as shown below. When conducting direct attacks on a nation’s economy each submarine adjacent to any coastal territory that contains an originally controlled Industrial Complex rolls one D12 and applies the effect as follows:

1-4 = 1 IPC loss
5-8 = 2 IPC loss
9-12=3 IPC loss

Note: if the convoy box contains units then they must be sunk or withdraw before an economic attack can occur. All loses are subtracted from that nations current economic totals.

Planes vs. Ships at Port:
Only planes may attack ships docked in port. Attacks are commenced without use of a search roll. Every ship including ships that are not targeted defends at a modified aerial defense roll of three. Each plane selects which ships it wants to target and can assign their hits to those ships. No ship can “screen” out any other ship (e.g. Cruisers/Destroyers) in this form of attack. Combat is considered simultaneous so both sides get a shot before hits are assigned. All combat vessels take double the hits to sink the warship. The defender must now roll to determine if any degree of surprise was achieved by the attack as follows:

Roll:
1-4= No surprise- all ships defend at three
5-8= Moderate surprise- all ships defend at two
9-12= Complete surprise- all ships defend at one

Note: That all naval units defend at a minimum of one. Naval units that originally defend at values of three or lower defend at one in ports. The result of the die roll lasts for the initial combat round and the result is reduced by one level on each subsequent combat round. Artillery units in any territory that contains a port also get preemptive anti-aircraft fire at each plane.

Night Surface Actions
Japan had superior technique in night combat until turn 5. Following any successful naval search roll but before surface naval combat is performed the Japanese player rolls if it will take place at night. Note: After turn 5 discontinue the roll. Now roll one D12 and if the result is at night then the Japanese player’s naval units gain a +1 modifier. During evasion rolls (after the active player has successfully rolled for search), Japan also gets a +1 modifier. To determine if the surface action is at night roll one D12:

1-8=day
9-12=night

Naval Interception of Naval Units
All Defending naval units (including carrier-based fighters) may intercept moving naval units as the naval units leave their sea zone. The naval units are engaged in one round of naval interception combat in the sea zone. Intercepting naval units roll as the attacker, and the moving naval units roll as the defender. If enemy naval units end their movement in a sea zone containing defending naval units (including during amphibious assaults), the defending naval units may then also conduct combat. Note: That if the non- active player’s naval units allow enemy naval units (which have not withdrawn) to occupy their sea zone and not conduct naval interception, then the active players transports can load or unload ground units.

SUPER BATTLESHIP
(BBB)

30 cost

11/6 attack

11/6 defense

2 moves

Takes 3 hits to sink
–---------------------------------

BATTLESHIP  (BB)
24 cost
9/5 attack
9/5 defense
2 moves
Naval interception, one shot shore , takes 2 hits,

HYBRID BATTLESHIP/
CARRIER (BBAV)
One BB, plus 5 IP

8/2 attack

8/2 defense

2  moves
Only Japan, Naval interception, one shot shore , takes 2 hits, one plane capacity

---

OLD BATTLESHIP (B)
N/A
7/3 attack
7/3 defense
2 moves
Naval interception, one shot shore, takes 2 hits

---

BATTLECRUISER (BC)
18 cost
8/4 attack
8/4 attack
3 moves
Naval interception, one shot shore, takes 2 hits

---

HEAVY
CRUISER  (CA)
10 costs
6 attack
6 defense
3    moves
Naval interception, one shot shore

---

LIGHT CRUISER (CL)
8 cost
4 attack
4 defense
2 moves
Naval interception

---

DESTROYER  (DD)
6 cost
3 attack
3 defense
3  moves
Naval interception ,negates submarines 1st shot, Japan can transport one infantry

DESTROYER ESCORTS
(DE)
4 costs
2 attack
2 defense
3 moves
Subs must engage them before attacking transports

PT BOATS (PT)

2  cost
1   attack
1 defense
3 moves
Surprise attack

SUPER CARRIER
(SCV)
60 cost
4 attack
8 defense
3 moves
8 plane capacity, takes three hits

CARRIER
(CV)
45  costs
2  attack
6  defense
3 moves
6 plane capacity, takes two hits

LIGHT CARRIER  (CVL)
30 costs
1 attack
4 defense
2    moves
4 plane capacity , takes one hit

ESCORT CARRIER  (CVE)
15 costs
0 attack
2 defends
2 moves
2 plane capacity, takes one hit

KAITEN SUBMARINE
(KSS)
3
2
1
1
Japan only, surprise attack

SUBMARINE  (SS)
6
4
4
2

Naval interception,1st shot surprise attack

LONG RANGE SUBMARINE  (SSL)
8
5
5
2

Naval interception, 1st shot surprise attack

4
LANDING CRAFT
(LSI)
5

1
1
Can carry two class 1 units

4
HEAVY TRANSPORT
(LST)
10

2
2
Can carry two class 1 or 2 units

[Imperious Leader]

This is for another game of mine… you can extrapolate what is going on… I can easily convert the numbers for revised…etc. Also note this is D12 system and again i can convert to revised at a whim.

Aircraft Carriers:
These are the primary surface naval unit. The naval air forces are abstracted into each of these units during naval combat. There are four types of Carriers:  Super carriers carry 8 planes, Fleet carriers carry 6 planes, Light carriers carry 4 planes, and Escort Carriers carry 2 planes. Super Carriers take three hits; Carriers take two hits, while Light and Escort Carriers take only one hit.

I know full well that this is the “third Reich” of rules for such a game, while the concept as a whole is a clear evolution from regular axis and allies… I can “milk” this down to any level to even a basic simplicity. I modified the movement of these pieces to the 2-3 range when before they were in the 3-6 range because in the game they are used for has hexes for movement.

[Imperious Leader]

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=412&start=0

this is where some of this came from … i have older posts from 2004 but im still looking.

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@Imperious:

Planes to ship combat:
If any side has a carrier (SCV, CV, CVL, or CVE) or Hybrid Battleship then they must conduct air attacks first before any surface naval combat can occur. Super Carriers have 8 planes, Fleet Carriers have 6 planes, Light Carriers have 4 planes, and Escort Carriers have 2 planes, while Japanese Hybrid Battleship/Carriers have only 1 plane. Next each player who has planes decides how to allocate them into the following combat missions as follows:

1. Combat Air Patrol (CAP) defends first against fighter escorts, followed by remaining planes at 8
2. Torpedo Bombers attacks naval targets at 6 defends against CAP at 4
3. Dive Bombers attacks naval targets at 4 defends against CAP at 6
4. Fighter Escorts attacks CAP only at 8

The selections are made and not disclosed to the other player. Both sides now reveal their airpower allocations and perform aerial combat missions before naval attacks can occur. All the active players’ planes must now engage any defending planes that were assigned to CAP duty and perform aerial combat. All combat is considered simultaneous so both sides get to roll, hits are assigned and loses are removed from play.

Wow unexpected and as expected too advanced IMHO! I was thinking of something more generic like a new revised aircraft carrier unit without fighters onboard. Something like:

Aircraft Carriers

Description: Speedy ships that can strike deep into enemy territory.

(Figthers can no longer land on a carrier)

Cost: 16
Attack: 4
Defense: 3
Move: 3

Special Abilities
Aerial Fire Support: In an amphibious assault, your carriers may like battleships make a support shot on amphibious assaults on a 4. Each carrier fires once during the Conduct Opening Fire step against enemy land units in the territory being attacked (the enemy units do not fire back). A carrier cannot conduct shore bombardment if it was involved in a sea combat prior the amphibious assault.

Air Strikes: Carriers always fire in the opening fire step, whether on attack or defense. Cassualties from this opening fire will be destroyed before they can return fire.

The following link say something about Carriers vs Battleships: http://groups.google.se/group/soc.history.war.world-war-ii/browse_thread/thread/572028548c8e1a02/e4a54bb2c11621be%23e4a54bb2c11621be?sa=X&oi=groupsr&start=0&num=3