Here, I want to submit another different rules mechanics for aircrafts, destroyers and submarines warfare.
It will reintroduce some aspects discuss in previous threads on Subs and I intent to put it somewhere half-way between the OOB Sub mechanics and the classic Sub mechanics.
I will also try to respect as much as possible historical accuracy about planes vs subs, and as much as possible not to be overly complex (the real challenge).
The main distinction in this Subs HR mechanics is based upon the difference between:
a) defending Subs alone (or with Transports) in a SZ and
b) defending Subs with other Warships (DD, CA, CV, BB) in a SZ.
First, keep as a basic background the OOB Sub A2D1M2C6 and his capacities for submerge and surprise strike.
Second, all planes keep their basic combat value against subs Fg A3D4 / TcB A3-4D3 /StB A4.
Third, we need to introduce an Air Search Patrol (for planes) and an Anti-Sub Mission (for warships: Subs, Cruisers, Destroyers but excluding capital ones: CV and BB) which take place when attacking in a single SZ a group of Subs only, or Subs with Transports only.
Air Search Patrol:
All planes have to search and find Subs in a SZ before attacking them.
A plane unit needs a “1” or less to find a Sub.
If at least 1 plane succeed, then all planes can then make a regular attack, for 1 round only (before the Subs submerge).
In addition, if at least 1 DD is present (doing an Anti-Sub Mission), each plane unit needs a “2” or less to find a Sub.
(Said otherwise, a DD unit gives +1 to ASP or ASM rolls.)
Anti-Sub Mission:
Each Destroyer unit needs a “2” or less to find a Sub.
Only successful DDs can then make a regular attack, for 1 round only (before the Subs submerge).
In addition, if at least 1 plane is present (doing an Air Search Patrol), each DD unit needs a “3” or less to find a Sub.
(Said otherwise, an aircraft unit gives +1 to ASM rolls.)
OPTIONAL:
Other warships (excluding CV and BB), Subs and Cruisers need a “0” or less to find Sub.
That’s means that these warships need to be with DD or plane to perform an ASM.
If a plane or a DD is present, it needs a “1” or less to find Subs.
If both plane and DD is present, it needs a “2” or less to find Subs.
Only a successful Sub or Cruiser can then make a regular attack, for 1 round only (before the Subs submerge, if defender choose to do so).
OPTIONAL:
EXCEPTIONAL Non-Combat Move allowance
ASM implies to use escorting vessels, such as DD, to be perform in the Subs SZ, and could implies to leave behind bigger ships needing protection and cover.
So, exceptionally, this optional rule can allow a complete 2 spaces move to any unit performing ASM one SZ away from his starting point. So if the combat take place after using only 1 move, all ASM ships are allowed 1 space Non-combat move in any SZ bordering the one in which they performed ASM. This exceptional ASM NCM move is not a 3 spaces move allowance.
ASP and ASM are considered simultaneous.
When all the search rolls are done, only the successful warships and all or none of the planes (according to the ASP results) are considered part of the first combat round.
If the defending Subs stay for another round instead of submerging, then all the attacking warships and planes will be part of the second round.
Subs alone on defense:
Except for planes (which subs cannot hit), defending subs get a Defense roll @1.
Against Destroyer (and other subs), Subs have no surprise strike.
Addendum: The attacker’s casualties from Subs can be taken amongst all warships units in the SZ, not just the ones which spotted the Subs. As usual, owner choose casualty.
If OPTIONAL is included:
Against Cruiser, subs keep the surprise strike @1 as long as there is no DD present.
Defending Subs can always choose not to submerge after submitting to the first round of ASP or ASM.
If it is the case, then, this time, all the attacker’s units in the SZ get a round of direct fire on subs.
It lasts as long as the defender choose not to submerge (or even destroy all attacker’s warships unit!?).
Defending Subs with other warships (DD, CA, CV, BB) and scrambling planes (Fg or TcB).
When others warships or scrambling planes are present, their is no need to search for Subs (via ASP or ASM).
All planes and warships attack at their regular value.
However, if there is no attacking DD, Subs keep all capacities (first strike & submerge) and Subs commander can choose to submerge any or all subs during the surprise strike phase.
Subs can also stay in the battle as cheap fodder for warships, defender’s choice, D0 (vs attacking planes) / D1 (vs attacking warships).
If an attacking DD is present, then Subs can only submerge at the beginning of the second round (during subs submerge phase and before regular combat phase).
And couldn’t retrieve their surprise strike until all attacking DDs are sunk.
Finally, I add another little OPTIONAL Rule, which can be isolated from all the above and be part of OOB subs mechanics:
Sub targeting RULE
If Subs on offence get any hit after the first round, the attacker, if he wishes so, can pick a transport as casualty instead of a warships (warships casualties still chosen by owner).
Please leave your comments.
If you already play a different Sub mechanics than OOB with ASP and ASM, please tell me the difference between yours and this one. �
Defending Subs with other warships (DD, CA, CV, BB)
When others warships are present, their is no need to search for Subs (via ASP or ASM).
All planes and warships attack at their regular value.
Here how I rationalize this aspect:
When Subs are in the same SZ as other warships, they are playing a role of long range scouting and escort for more vitals warships.
So it is up to the defending player’s to decide (by submerging or not) if his Subs were hiding or trying to protect their bigger brothers against incoming attack.
While they are by themselves, I see Subs as roaming and patrolling the sea looking for a pray but being more careful and elusive. Thinking more about themselves than about another fleet that they should protect.
That’s how I explain the need to search Subs before being able to attack them.
I must also add about Subs+Transports:
that attacking player’s have to make ASP or ASM first, then sink the transports (if their is still any attacking units left after the fight with the Subs, which is certainly the case with an ASP).
I found this interesting questions:
It happens that I forget this situation in this alternate Sub Warfare.
I would try to provide a specific rules when I will find if it falls in the sub alone category (historical POV: subs are not protecting scrambling planes) or the subs+warships (game mechanics POV: there is another different friendly unit in the SZ) category:
What would happen in this situation.
Transports dont move but load and then unload from the same SZ.
A hostile submarine is available in the SZ as well as a friendly destroyer and some planes. ( so you can load )
Now defender scrambles 1 fighter and hits the destroyer.
Attacker kills the fighter but fails to destroy the sub.As we are in combat and the planes cant hit the sub and the sub cant hit the planes it is a stalemate there.
You cannot unload because there is still sea combat going on.
You cannot retreat because to retreat you have to move to a zone that your naval was comming from which is this SZ.Will the transports be defenseless ?? They cant run and the sub cant die.
For my part, the answer will come later.
If you have a idea, feel free to share.
Maybe it could be simple as planes cannot scramble to protect a subs only fleets…
But planes can scramble anytime to protect a SZ against invasion, even when there is no other friendly unit in this SZ.
@Baron:
I found this interesting questions:
It happens that I forget this situation in this alternate Sub Warfare.
I would try to provide a specific rules when I will find if it falls in the sub alone category (historical POV: subs are not protecting scrambling planes) or the subs+warships (game mechanics POV: there is another different friendly unit in the SZ) category:What would happen in this situation.
Transports dont move but load and then unload from the same SZ.
A hostile submarine is available in the SZ as well as a friendly destroyer and some planes. ( so you can load )
Now defender scrambles 1 fighter and hits the destroyer.
Attacker kills the fighter but fails to destroy the sub.As we are in combat and the planes cant hit the sub and the sub cant hit the planes it is a stalemate there.
You cannot unload because there is still sea combat going on.
You cannot retreat because to retreat you have to move to a zone that your naval was comming from which is this SZ.Will the transports be defenseless ?? They cant run and the sub cant die.
Since it is clear that the defender have the choice to scramble planes or not, this situation will be put in the Subs with warships. I added the correction in the initial post.
I rationalize it this way: subs are mobilized to stop invasion and the amphib. assault so, instead fleeing any contact with ennemy’s ship, they are seeking them instead. Hence, no need to go on Air Search Patrol to find defending subs.
So, ennemy’s planes can destroy subs even if there is no DD on their side. See the opening post.
